How does Veeky Forums feel about sola fide?

How does Veeky Forums feel about sola fide?

>Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

>The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works". All mankind, it is asserted, is fallen and sinful, under the curse of God, and incapable of saving itself from God's wrath and curse. But God, on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of his Son, Jesus Christ alone (solus Christus), grants sinners judicial pardon, or justification, which is received solely through faith. Faith is seen as passive, merely receiving Christ and all his benefits, among which benefits are the active and passive righteousness of Jesus Christ.

It's Biblical.

Doesn't James say you are not justified by faith alone tho?

if you're just asking how I feel about it, it's gay faggoty queer shit.

>literally nothing you do in life matters, good or bad, just that you love meeeeeeeeeeeeee
such an overtly dickheaded concept could only be created by mortal men, and obviously not the principal of any god worth having faith in.

I'll preface this by saying I'm a Catholic, so Protestants may feel free not to believe me, but isn't this all a massive misunderstanding?

Near as I can tell, Sola Fide is the result of Luther throwing a shitfit about the Sacraments. He didn't like the outward conveyance of inward grace, or something along those lines. He didn't like the idea that the acts of the Church could convey supernatural grace without any strong show of faith; he saw those acts as 'works.'

But, and this is important: those acts are all manifestations of works, yes? That's what the Epistle to James is ultimately getting at. We have these works, but they are only outward manifestations of true faith. If you have true faith, you will do Christian works, because a true faith will generate Christlike actions on the part of the one who has that faith. A true faith is a living, breathing faith that necessarily creates good works.

So, again, as near as I can tell the only reason Sola Fide as a doctrine exists is based off a colossal misunderstanding by Luther. Am I wrong?

Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible, he didn't because his followers got really upset.

So you're saying that I could do whatever I want without cosmic retribution, so long as I held faith in jesus in my heart?

I'm curious, and I'd actually like to ask: does this make works meaningless in the eyes of god? Or is this faith expected to move us to works, and that works can only be resultant of faith?

Or am I missing the point here? Because honestly, as chafing as it is to an agnostic, universal codes of ethics sound preferable.

>misinterpreting the concept

I bet you also want to pay a load of money just to have your soul redeemed faggot

Everyone sins, but not everyone is saved, and being saved comes through faith, not works.

Reminder that Christ gave the Church total power to forgive sins, and didn't specify the mechanism.

If you get butthurt about this maybe you don't have absolute faith in the Church, which Christ founded.

Faith in what though? Faith in god? What if people have different concepts of god? What if people weren't taught right, and have the wrong kind of faith?

Can faith in ideas that god represents, be used in place of god them self, in the case of the virtuous pagan?

Christ did not give the Church the power to charge for the mechanism, or any other Sacrament..You can certainly prescribe giving money as part of a penance, but the money doesn't have to be given in tithes, the person can give it to any charity so long as it is for a cause in line with Christianity; and this can only be prescribed if actually makes a difference, it's based on how much the person makes; if they don't make much, it can't be as much as if they're wealthy--and if they are extremely wealthy, it probably wouldn't be prescribed because it wouldn't be much of a penance.

What if I don't like earthly institutions and don't want to rely on them for communion with god?

Is there a path to salvation without a church? Can I decide myself what penance is, and still expect to be embraced in heaven? There are many here who'd jump to say that it would be the devil's work if I tried.

Do churches hold a spiritual monopoly on my access to god?

The Church isn't an "institution" it's the communion of Christ's Body on earth and heaven.

Christ said what the Apostles don't forgive, neither will God forgive. You can say, "Well I want to get to Christ *my* way," and I'm in no position to tell you that you are condemned, for I cannot know, but I will say that you are not following the instructions Christ left for salvation.

Fair enough. I can respect that you don't expect judge in the place of god.

what is there to misinterpret about it? can you explain how i misinterpreted it?

it literally LITERALLY says "faith alone"

what is faith?

>its an "ask a question and then immediately try to shit on whatever answer is given" episode

go look it up in the dictionary, you disingenuous contrarian shithead.

Not him, I want to know your take and how you feel it applies. If it's in the most literal sense, you could have mentioned that in the first place instead of assuming we're all on the same wavelength of what it means in this context.

Because I'm not a sack of rocks.

faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Isn't a soft concept in my mind.

Biblically it means to believe in something or be persuaded. The Greek word doesn't necessarily imply an overwhelming belief, it can just mean being convinced.

> complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
that's it. you do'nt even really need to love christ with all your heart and soul to be saved, you just need to have general ,acceptance of him as your savior.

you might say "well you need to have genuine conviction about it!" which yea is pretty hard in your day to day life, but when you're moments away from death it's really the easiest thing in the world to accept some sort of savior with real conviction.

i just think it's a stupid concept. the only "justice" in the concept of "saved or damned." is purely a human contrivance of vengeance for the wronged.
>you were a meanie so burn in hell forever!
if you unironically believe this, even towards the most despicable contemptible evildoer, you yourself are also considerably evil.

In Orthodoxy, we all end up burning with the same fire, which is God's grace (Hebrew 12:29), whether it is bliss or agony depends on whether you are hateful, ashamed, or joyous before God.

point remains. unless it's an agony you can eventually escape from POST death it's still the most ultimately evil concept imagined. in a finite life with finite actions you can take, no one deserves eternal agony, that's purely the revenge fantasy of slave morality.

You might be able to repent of it, we just don't know.

>no one deserves eternal agony
The agony, by the way, is brought on themselves by resentment or shame. The "fire" is literally God's love, it's not inherently any device of torture, it is a gift that sustains your existence even now.

i feel like that's something that your scripture would clarify

who faggot fucking cares who's fucking fault it is? oh yea, you, a petty small, mortal man. you would care.

>The "fire" is literally God's love, it's not inherently any device of torture, it is a gift that sustains your existence even now.
why the fuck would a 'just and loving' god ever allow his "love" to cause any agony under any circumstance for any reason?

you're just making pathetic human excuses for an anthropomorphized god's actions that have no excuse for being in the first place.
>well it's their fault!
if god is all powerful and all knowing, then he is by ALL logic directly responsible for everything that ever was is and shall be. it's his fault. for all of it.

>i feel like that's something that your scripture would clarify
Why? Scripture is teaching for us to follow here and now.

>why the fuck would a 'just and loving' god ever allow his "love" to cause any agony under any circumstance for any reason?
What's he going to do, force people to love him? How would that be real love, if it's forced?

>Why? Scripture is teaching for us to follow here and now.
knowledge of the afterlife deeply affects how you behave here and now

>What's he going to do, force people to love him?
no, he's going to force people to love each other, because he's not the biggest fucking cock sucking faggot in existence.
he's god, he doesnt need your love.

>How would that be real love, if it's forced?
because hes god and can make it be so.

or did you just forget the part where he's god and can do ANYTHING? it's like people thing god only has control over physics and not metaphysics as well. he's infinitely powerful, he can make "love" be whatever the fuck he wants it to be.

you have a tiny child brain and you think tiny child thoughts.

>knowledge of the afterlife deeply affects how you behave here and now
Maybe being unsure does as well.

>he's infinitely powerful, he can make "love" be whatever the fuck he wants it to be.
He wants it to be a choice.

>Maybe being unsure does as well.
yea it makes people murder each other

>He wants it to be a choice.
because he's the biggest cock sucking faggot in the universe, we know.

>yea it makes people murder each other
How does being unsure about whether repentance is possible after Judgement, make people murder each other?

why don't you ask the people who murdered them for professing such a belief?

Nobody was ever murdered for that.

Extra sacraments and penances are like exercises that were devised by the church clergy in order to teach people the morals of the faith. It probably took a generation or so after their institution for the people to forget what they were truly intended for and become just another of unproductive and manipulated ritual in opposition to what Jesus exhorted.

Matthew 6:7-8
>And, being at prayer, use not vain repetitions, just like the nations, for they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard, do not therefore make yourselves like them, for your Father knoweth of what things ye have need, before ye ask him.

Mark 12:28-34
>And one of the scribes coming near, hearing them discussing, seeing that well he had answered them, began to question him, "Which is the chief commandment of all?" Iesus answered, "The chief is: 'Hear! O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord; therefore shalt thou love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.' The second is this, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' Greater commandment, other than these, there is none." The scribe said unto him, "Well, Teacher! In truth hast thou said He is One, and there is none other than he; And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the might, and to love one's neighbour as one's self, is abundantly more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And Iesus, seeing him that with intelligence he answered, said unto him, "Not far art thou from the kingdom of God." And no one, any longer, was daring to question him.

Papcucks will defending being able to pay2win as a means of getting into heaven.

...

>Sola Fide, by faith alone.
>Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
>Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
>Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
>Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.

I don't know why the use the word "alone" when all five go hand in hand.

So you could murder and rape billions of people and then just feel bad about it and convert on your deathbed?

Good deeds are better than faith alone. Obviously donating to the One True Church is a good deed, but it is not the only one.

What "extra sacraments" are you referring to?

Penances are prescribed by one's priest as medicine for the sinner who has a serious problem. In the RCC, they became juridical, with a manual for each penance for each sin to be used with precision (but I don't think they still do that), but this never happened in the Orthodox Church, penance is always contextual and given on the basis of what will help the sinner. That is, while in the West it got to be some officer of the law dispensing punishment (the Catholic conception of Purgatory ties in heavily with this theology), in the East it was always a doctor prescribing medicine.

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”

- Martin Luther

Maybe each must be understood on individual terms?

its a meme ya dip

What you mean

i mean its a meme so that people will share it

What do you mean it's a "meme"?

Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

not of works,

lest anyone should boast.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1. Saving faith = salvation.
2. After being saved, walking in the works God lays before you.

a meme is a meme

James and Paul did not see eye to eye on many things. Paul ended up saying that anyone following James' doctrine would be accursed under the Law, as James was a Judaizer.

The charitable way to harmonize the two is to say that if you have faith as Paul says, then the works of God will flow from that faith, and those works will be visible to men.

But James really was teaching people to follow the Law of Moses, and James never believed his own half-brother was the Messiah until the Resurrection.

...

But what are memes like I see it "stop this meme" or its a "meme" what does it mean

it means memes

>A true faith is a living, breathing faith that necessarily creates good works.

This is correct. I cannot speak to Luther because I can't stand him.

But you stand virtually alone among Catholics, as Catholicism is a works based religion. Go to confession. Confess. Repent. Do penance. Pray. Light a candle. Pray again. Go to church. Hear mass. Eat cracker. Drink juice. Go to confession. Rinse and repeat endlessly.

Those are not works of the Father; those are works of the Catholic church.

The work of the Father is accomplished when a man believes in the One Whom He has sent.

James 2:24

>You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Faith and Works are like a dynamic duo that high five and need the proper balance.

Like one of those pics with the big white letters?

"By works a man is justified, and not by faith alone."
-James

When Paul talks about "works", he is referring to works of the law, like circumcision and eating kosher.

>Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

-Galatians 2:16

Jesus paid that cosmic retribution on your behalf, before you were born. He already paid the sin debt you owed to God for violating all of God's Law.

By confessing that Jesus is Lord, and believing in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, and you will have made Jesus' sacrifice on your behalf meaningful to Him and you. You will be in fellowship with Him.

I wish I could say that being saved stops people from sinning, but people have no more power to stop sinning after they are saved than before.

Absolute faith in the church will lead you to hellfire. I guarantee it.

Faith (the ability to believe without seeing) that Jesus is Lord, that He is God, and that He rose from the dead on the third day after He was executed, having paid the sin debt of humanity.

Faith is not the key; the object of your faith is key. If the object of your faith is in the risen Christ Jesus, you're golden.

No church every saved anyone.

No church ever will.

I think it's more than just saying "Jesus is Lord" especially after the circumstances in - this post....

Like that person would have some serious debt to pay for the heinous sins they have done.

That is where works comes in

Our righteousness cannot save us; only God's grace.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"
- Paul

sometimes

Of course. It's always been a one-on-one meeting with God, your creator.

Anywhere you like, any time you like, with any words you like, you can confess out loud that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. Do this, and you will be saved (Romans 10:9)

Joining a church to be saved is as foolish as living in a garage to be a car. Once you are saved, you can seek out a church that will be thrilled to hear your testimony and baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If they cannot or will not, find a real church that will, and if you want, join it.

Faith is the human ability to believe things without seeing them.

As the bible says, faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen.

This.

People think because they are Christian they are all set but then don't ever go beyond and apply it.

Being a Christian isn't an ego booster "I am saved because I am a Christian and everyone else is going to hell because I'm better than them because of the exclusive nature of my church that excludes the sinners that Jesus wasn't afraid rest with"

>In Orthodoxy, we all end up burning with the same fire,

You never said a truer word.

Through God's grace we are made righteous, no man is righteous on his own, only God is righteous.

>James was a Judaizer.
Nope, he presided over the Council of Jerusalem.

Saint James the Brother of the Lord was very popular with Judaizers because he was a Nazerene until his death at the hands of the Pharisees (which is recounted by Josephus), but Saint James was not Judaizer.

Thanks for your input, Simon Magus. We'll pass. Turns out the Holy Spirit is not for sale.

Amen.

A person is considered righteous by whom?

I prefer to be considered righteous by God. Not men.

>he is referring to works of the law, like circumcision and eating kosher.

Yes, WORKS THAT JAMES WAS TEACHING PEOPLE TO DO.

Indeed. Because the second part is to believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead.

See?

more.

James was teaching in the Temple.

With no problem from the Jews.

It bothers me so much that people think you're a Christian, when you don't understand basic historical scripture, much less anything spiritual.

We can only be considered righteous by God which is what James must have meant as well. It is probably to help people to not only rely on faith but understand that through faith and works together...

Great quote. I'm a mess, but I'm His mess. Love it.

It's a step in the right direction.

The Church is Christ's Body, so.....

>"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"
Existence itself is a gift from God through his grace, everything is due to grace alone, but it is up to *you* whether or not you will cooperate with grace, and grace will not force your hand in this.

The most righteous people on earth when Jesus was here were the Pharisees and scribes.

And Jesus said that your righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees and scribes, literally the most righteous people on earth.

How do you think you stack up against people who literally live every moment of every day by each commandment that God gave mankind?

People who would take a shower and change clothes between each letter of the torah they were copying? People who would give 10% of the mint they grew in their garden to the Temple? People who would not be seen in public with a spot on their robe?

Me too.

Both are supernatural acts. The confession is a supernatural act, and the belief is a supernatural belief.

People think they can do them at any time, but it's impossible.

Luckily God can do the impossible.

Your church.

Is not.

Christ's body.

>James was teaching in the Temple.
Christ was teaching in the Temple.

>no problem with the Jews
Except being put to death by them?

>you don't understand basic historical scripture,
I understand that Scripture has Saint James as bishop of Jerusalem, and presiding over the Council of Jerusalem, where the Judaizers are ruled against.

The true church is a community of people

"Whether two or three are gathered in My Name, I am there"

>Jeus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

It isn't about the bread at church, the true communion is the direct relationship to God.

That's actually her very definition.

Yes we must choose to cooperate but this is not a "work" in the sense that Romans use the word.

And they killed Jesus.

And they killed Paul.

And they had no problem with James, because James was having men circumcised, baptized (a Jewish ritual) and told to follow the Law of Moses.

I know your heart is in the right place, and you want to help people see the light.

But you're in total darkness and you can't tell the difference.

If you want to help people to be saved, you must first be saved.

Your church.

Is not.

The body of Christ.

Those scribes and Pharisees were also being rebuked constantly and lived 2000 years ago.

Maybe this will help you get some clarity.

You are a member of your church.

You are not a member of the Body of Christ, because the Body of Christ is not comprised of your church members.

You're talking about bread as source of carbs, communion is about bread as Christ's Body that you join with. Christ said if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood, you shall not inherit eternal life. He gives food to his Apostles saying it is his body and they are eating it; yet you say this is all is uncritical?

The true body of Christ is in the heart of every being who has died with Him and come into new life with Him.

No, because Romans uses it to mean works of the law, whereas James uses it to mean synergism

They were being rebuked not because they were not righteous, but because they were self-righteous.

If you want to be righteous based on your works, you are lining up to be self-righteous.

And God resists the self-righteous.

No, the only way into heaven and the only way for your righteousness to exceed the righteousness of men is to have the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself imputed to you.

Which is what happens when a person becomes born again.

When God looks at me, He sees Jesus. My imputed righteousness exceeds the self-righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, who would NEVER come to this site under ANY conditions.

>Christ said if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood, you shall not inherit eternal life.

Absolute pagans you people are. ffs keep reading John 6.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

>the Body of Christ is not comprised of your church members.
Our Body of Christ has continuously existed for 2000 years. Yours was born during the Reformation, or, if we take your word for it, "Reborn" after having supposedly died for over a thousand years.

You can recieve the Eucharist without churches ritual

I know the beliefs of your church, and I know that you are going to hell because your faith is in your church.

No church ever saved anybody.

No church ever will.

You can do good works without being self righteous. You give freely without expectation of result.

People eat crackers and drink juice all day every day.

Few find the narrow path.