Are there any socialists/communists/anarchists on Veeky Forums. I don't necessarily know where I stand politically speaking, but I want to get insight on how business would work in these ideologies.
Are there any socialists/communists/anarchists on Veeky Forums
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They don't work
It's literally Utopian fantasy.
Anarcho capitalism will work because muh non aggression principle and all this other theoretical bullshit
Communism will work because everyone will share and be kind and innovate with no incentive!
I want to acquire power in order to dominate others to my bidding.
Where do I stand politically Veeky Forums?
Where do I stand politically Veeky Forums?
You stand as a fedora who will never get rich
Are there any socialists/communists/anarchists on /biz
Most people on biz don't live in their parent's basement, and realize how retarded those ideologies are once you actually get a job
Most people on biz don't live in their parent's basement
Are you new here? They do
and realize how retarded those ideologies are once you actually get a job
50% of Veeky Forums is unemployed according to last major poll.
it's a shame you were not around when this debate ended 70years ago.
le everyone is unemployed /r9k/ maymay
Been on Veeky Forums since day one and on Veeky Forums since 06.
How many people were in that poll? Twenty? Thirty people?
Businesses don't work in those systems. Capitalism has brought prosperity to more people than any other economic system in the history of the world
You stand as a fedora who will never get rich
In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of money, cars or luxury, all primitive concepts of value which I do not need to possess. But because of knowing that investing in my intelligence pays of best.
Makes me wonder if the reason Texas economy is relatively strong is because we have no basements to stay neet in.
What about workers rights? Surely socialism is better in that respect? And surely elements of socialism are good in capitalist societies? Hell a lot are already present now.
Well i see myself as a maxist, and there is actually a project in france who are theorized by bernard friot (en.wikipedia.org
First it had nothing to do with the "life income" who get discused in swiss. in second it can seems crazy, but it can work. It's not THE answer but it is a answer, like capitalism. Capitalism is not THE way, it is a way and we seems to forget this. and third this economy system will help people and business/enterprise better than the actual capitalism.
well there is a video in french who resume the thing: youtube.com
also i will try to answer if some people are curious here about socialism/communism system and alternative project to capitalism and want to know about it. i'm gonna try to find something in english for all the curious user.
I don't know about an alternative to capitalism so to speak, maybe elements of both capitalism and socialism can co-exist? Much like many current countries, a mix, with a capitalist economy and many socialist policies like medical care and workers rights. Probably, too much capitalism leads to a system closely resembling the medieval surf system, like what you can see developing in the US. The divide between the elite class and the poorest of the poor is growing larger and the middle class is shrinking.
But yeah, more info would be great.
I cant find anything right now in english exept this: mondediplo.com
it is from frederic lordon (en.wikipedia.org
You're falsley equating the worker's rights movement with socialism
The reality is that workers rights develop naturally only in capitalistic societies and never occur in socialist societies.
Workers have tons of rights, what are you talking about? Capitalism doesnt mean zero regulations
No, I wasn't falsely equating anything. Socialism has a long history of helping workers and capitalism with exploiting them. The logical endpoint to capitalism is top efficiency with zero regulations, and with no sight on who it will effect, which is almost always the workers and the poor.
I like economics, politics and philosophy and would argue the best way to live for a community would be a communist or anarchist form.
That being I and most traditional leftists (no liberals) understand you can't have communism or anarchism being put in place after capitalism for how much of a shock it would be economically and for culture people would need to be weened onto it from a form of socialism.
Most people on Veeky Forums don't understand forms of Marxism for they are amaerblubbers or euro trash who dismiss it as government hand outs or the state owning everything even tho communism would be a classless and starless society.
People on biz need to really read Marx and Engal and not just Das Captial since just reading Das Capital won't give you a good insight on Marxism. It requires a lot of reading to understand a system people who dismiss forms of Marxism as just "hurdur the government controls everything and it only works on paper!" Are just as foolish as some boy who joined the young people's communist party where he screams about da evils of capitalism and how it's simplely the evil white rich man putting me down.
I'd suggest to anyone who problems with communism or Marxism or ever capitalism speak with a communist or Marxist or capitalist to get a good understand rather then just remaining in their hug box.
That all being said I like the capitalist life since I get a buzz out of making big bucks and miniplateing people.
Well lets explain some of the point.
- Usa health system take 15% of the PIB (interior brut product)
- France health system take 10% of the PIB (200 billion)
The result talk for themselves, Usa health system don't work better than france and france health system are more equalitary. But why? Well because in Usa the health system is let to he insurance company (lucrative property ) and so capitalism.
No socialism has a long history of there being no work and results in starvation and death. Name a successful socialist country
France. See our health system, it is socialism on this point.
See our education system, bad on some point but way better than the Usa one, gived to lucrative property.
I dont think anyone would argue French citizens are better off than American citizens. Your unemployment rates are huge and economy has been in the shitter for years. If France is your shining example, you lose kid
But why this cost if the result work this way? Well i'm gonna make it short. The cost of the capital.
Because the capital will make profit. And so the capital objective is to make profit, nothing else.The private will always cost more than the public.
Please could you read what i say before making such assuptions?
I talk about our health system (i'm not gonna talk about the rest since its not the debate and it will take me hours to explain so many concept) you asked about example of socialism i give you one on some specific point because i don't have english videos to explain to you what's wrong with the work market. Even if i would like to i can't translate such a thing.
i can send videos in french who would explain such interesting things and will probably change your view of this if you want tough.
Well about the point you see the example of the france health system, it cost least, work better (more equal). why? see Here you have an simple example of how socialism work better than capitalism.
mistake, for a little explanation see and dont change what i've said i never said american citizens are inferiors to french or such a thing (we're not on pol user) i talk about a specific example of socialism in a capitalist-liberal country (france) who work better than an other. I discuss and try to explain how marxism/sociaism will work better than capitalism, don't mistake my point.
So all you are talking about is healthcare? What is your tax rate on $50,000/ year
Ahh, so much rhetoric with no evidence.
How does businesses run in these countries?
hurr durr socialism chokes them to death
1) America has elements of socialism and we also have some state run enterprises
2) Look at the heritage foundations index, some of the more socialist nations rank right around the US in terms of economic freedom
In Sweden a more socialist nation city officials and the public sit on the board of companies
And before everyone gets in a stupid ass ideological fight about how great/bad any particular system is 1) rarely do we ever see an system operate as its ideal type 2) they all have draw backs. And blind cheerleading makes you look foolish. Adam Smith, the biggest cheerleader for capitalism, wrote that capitalism stupifies the worker and even Karl Marx wrote that capitalim has done amazing job when it comes to producing tons of goods.
I would describe myself as a socialist.
I'm not entirely sure what my exact ideology is, but for the sake of this thread I would broadly say a market socialist.
I believe that business should be owned cooperatively, each worker would own a roughly equal share in the company. There would be some pay difference, but only a few levels and with strict rules in place.
Such as the mondragon corporation in Spain, they have a rule that the highest earning member of the company can earn no more than 6x the lowest earner.
I believe this system could work well in existing republics. Free enterprise would be allowed for businesses under a certain size, I can't really provide a figure.
The main change I would like to see in my life is the implementation of a 6 hour workday, like sweden just did.
Plenty of studies show you get more done in less time.
I'm european, so this isn't that radical
500 people were in the poll, actually
Yes i have prefered taking the example of the healthcare because its a simple example how liberalism cost more and work less than socialism.
I don't know the tax for 50 000, and you could not even be sure about it because the government here usually do a lot of system to allow fortunate people to not have to pay any tax.
But the thing its than i would need to explain what's wrong even with the tax herself. because it its a way more complex than this. The tax system is wrong, it is about the production property and where it belong. A tax is just a way to take a little part back of what is taken by the ownership of means of production.
No, the tax rate is extremely important. In America, the effective tax rate on $50,000 before deductions is just over 11%, or $5,600
Since you're dodging the question, the French rate is 30%, or $15,000
So you are paying $9,400 every year more than an American for your health insurance
Thats more than most Obamacare plans. (I'm not endorsing Obamacare by any means)
it is really frustrating because its only in french. see this part of teh video i will try to translate it, i hope you will understand what's wrong with the concept of tax/ownership of the means of production.
Tell me if you agree or if another user want to know, bacause i don't want to translate for nothing
U wot mate?
Communism and/or socialism = no business.
It dont work this way in france, tough this point is indeed intersting. in france we have cotisations, we don't have brut salary, it is a complex system we've get since the 60' i think. so on a salary almost half of the salary goes to "internal tax" and tha'ts what's financal the health system. in these internal tax (cotisation) we have a health system tax in fact she and only she finance the health system. she's pay by the "boss" too.
Not the best model if we're looking at their current situation.
It isn't a widely used model in spain.
The mondragon corporation has actually done very well throughout the recession and in recent years.
Your English is not good enough to understand what you're trying to say. The bottom line is your healthcare is by no means "free." You pay out the ass in taxes to fund it. I'd much rather just have the money to buy my own insurance where I see fit
yeah but your assurance will cost more. Cause a non-public assurance will make profit and so cost more. And if the assurance is in bourse it will be even worse cause it will always need to make more profit to give dividend to shareholder, and tough reduce cost.
and indeed my english isn't enough good to developp a complex idea on such point, and the video i've sent are sadly only in french. and that's really bad cause it countain everything someone need to understand than capitalism isn't the only way and what's wrong with it. Hard to do a synthesis of such a thing here.
You mean insurance? Obamacare for someone making $50k is about $4k a year. That's half what you pay.
France is way better for the middle class than USA.
In USA its only a matter of time till youre fucked by either health issues, outsourcing, fin bubbles, divorce industry, criminal justice industry/etc..
Insurance yes, helth insurrance. This point is interesting, so it cost not much to the upper class, have you some number for the middle class and lower class too? because it is know a lot of people dont have any insurrance in usa so i would assume something is wrong with the cost of the usa health insurrance. Ho another point is the fact than with everyone having a health insurance here the medical fee are lowest than in usa, we pay for 1 euro and get a refund for 29 euros. how much do you pay for a generalist doctor visit yourself?
Stop, tu ne fais que t'enfoncer.
La sécu ici nous coûte extrêmement cher en taxes et cotisations sociales (9 000€ en moyenne par an par salarié), quelqu'un en bonne santé ne dépense même pas le dixième de ça par an.
Même en cas d'hospitalisation d'urgence (qui coûte très cher), n'importe qui pourrait s'en sortir juste en capitalisant son revenu, ou en empruntant de l'argent/prenant une assurance s'il faut.
Le socialisme rend la sécu très chère et inefficace puisqu'il n'y a du coup aucune compétition, le système n'a pas besoin d'être améliorer ou rendu moins cher puisqu'il n'y a pas de profits à réaliser.
Tout ceci ne s'applique pas seulement à la sécu, tout ce que le socialisme touche plus ou moins joue avec l'économie de marché et rend les choses souvent pires à long terme ou a des répercussions autre part.
Not really sure about that, even if the middle class is better off, our economy is so shit it barely makes up for it.
Your english is very bad so it's hard to understand you.
It sounds like you think of $50k/year as upper class which should end the discussion of socialism vs capitalism right then and there.
The middle class as the majority is an enigma and only exists from the effects of WW2 and only persists due to forced government policy that subsidies and encourages it's existence.
The United states still leads the world in technology.
Intel, AMD, Nvidida, Google, Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Qualcomm, TI, etc... are all US based companies There are some notable asian entries as well. Samsung, Toshiba, Sony, LG, Baidu, Global Foundries( which spun off from the American AMD), Lenovo(which got most of it's tech that's worth anything from the American IBM, and more recently Motorola)
What meaningful entry does Europe have in this field? you can't even say Nokia any more because Microsoft bought them.
The only French Company that I know of that's big enough to be on anyones radar is Archos and what do they make? Cheap tablets, and media players? I think they've recently been trying to branch into IOT stuff but really they are an also ran who made devices with decent media capabilities.
so it cost not much to the upper class
50k isn't upper class in the US kid, that's median income.
I'm 25 I make 48K a year plus benefits, I pay about 60$/month for insurance, a doctors visit costs me 25$ copay and maybe another 60-100$ depending on what needs done, but I'm guaranteed to not pay more than 2k a year, after that the insurance picks it all up.
Many people conflate the cost of health insurance with the cost of health care. We largely don't have a health insurance problem we have a health care cost problem, largely due to the existence of health insurance and programs like medicare and medicaid distorting the market. When someone walks into the doctors office and they have insurance they expect to pay nothing and therefore don't care what the expense is. There's no market pressure to keep prices down, there's no competition.
We could also have more competition in the insurance market, but that's another paragraph or two and I think I've said enough for now.
Learn english you fucking mongoloid.
t. Norwegian whose mother tongue also isn't english
commie is poorfag ideology.. it never works, and in the end you get raped by the state.. Capitalism is the only way to go
There are a few truly enlightened people in every generation. It should be as easy as possible for them to direct resources towards innovation
There are a few truly enlightened people in every generation. I am one of those people and will optimally allocate you and your resources.
System that has never been tried and is stateless and classless
"It never works and the state fucks you"
Please read Marx before you make a fool out of yourself. Again.
Also capitalism sure works for those darkies in shithole Africa am I right :^)
Not a commie but I understand it fairly since I took the time to understand it rather then just meme it.
I wish there where more people like you in the US bro, you know whats up
capitalism sure works for those darkies in shithole Africa am I right
You dont know much about Africa do you?
Please read Marx
Marx was a bum that wrote a bunch of nonsense to justify why he was a worthless bum. Go read some one who did something with their life like f.a hayek or milton friedman
How many worker's rights did men have in 1930s Germany?
Workers rights aren't socialism
They are part of the rules of the game of capitalism
Whether they are good for the players is a different story
Sweden is not socialist. Government provision when it works better is not socialist.
You forget that people who work in the public sector will just misuse funds for their own purposes or not bother doing the job well.
In general private costs less than public, but there are some notable exceptions (healthcare)