Can we safely say that modern-day Greeks are not genetically related to the Ancient Greeks/Hellenes?

We had a long, terrible thread a while back where all of the 'modern greeks are different ancient greeks was aryanz n shiet' people were conclusively BTFO.

I sure wish someone had bothered to capture it.

Literally all historians, anthropologists and scholars without a lying face will tell you that modern-day Greeks =/= Ancient Greeks.

I gave the example of Sparta and Spartans and the historical genocide, depopulation, repopulation and migrations that happened within Greece.

Your average Greek today is related more to his neighbours (Albanians, Slavs, Vlach(Romanians), Turks etc..) then to Ancient Hellenes.

Except modern-day Greeks aren't related to Ancient Greeks.

What is:

>Roman conquest and genocide in Greece
>Immigration to Greece in the Roman empire
>Germanic invasions
>Hunnic invasions
>Slavic migrations, decimation of local populations of Greece and repopulation of the decimated areas with Southern Italians and Anatollians
>Migration of eastern Christians into Greece throughout the age of Byzantium
>Migration of Albanians and Vlachs to Greece during late Byzantine era
>Migrations in general
>Ottomans

>Can we safely say that modern-day Greeks are not genetically related to the Ancient Greeks/Hellenes?

CURRENT GREEKS ARE GENETICALLY RELATED TO "ANCIENT GREEKS" —CURRENT GREEKS DID NOT JUST APPEAR FROM NOTHING—, BUT THEY ARE NOT SOCIOCULTURALLY RELATED TO THEM.

THE SEPARATION IS MOSTLY SOCIOCULTURAL RATHER THAN GENETIC; ANY GENETIC DRIFT AWAY FROM THE "ANCIENT GREEK" TYPE HAS BEEN DUE TO SOCIOCULTURAL CHANGES.

>Literally all historians, anthropologists and scholars without a lying face will tell you that modern-day Greeks =/= Ancient Greeks.
So name one?

>Greeks came from nothing

Never said that. Greeks today are genetically a race mix of Albanians, Slavs, Vlachs, Turks, Anatollian Christians, even Arab and gypsies.

Is their anything Spartan about that ethnic soup? Waiting for answer.

How do ingrates like you misunderstand population history so fundamentally? Are you American or just a DAS RITE MANE THE GREEKS WUZ ARYANS N SHIEEEET retard?

What Roman genocide?

You know migration doesn't mean replacement of the local population right?

In fact that rarely, if ever, happens. Invaders don't often leave a huge genetic stamp on the locals.

Did you know the British are still almost entirely Celtic genetically despite their culture and nation being completely Germanic?. Not to mention the Norman invasion and all of the incursions by the Vikings. And that's a case where the foreign invaders triumphed entirely and basically committed cultural genocide, so an extreme example.

IMPROVE YOUR "READING COMPREHENSION".

>Without a lying face

Historians are known for having a lying face, Paul Kagan for example.

>Literally all historians, anthropologists and scholars without a lying face will tell you that modern-day Greeks =/= Ancient Greeks.
Ayyyy I wrote my BA dissertation on the population history of Crete and I've never seen any historian claim anything like this. Citation fucking needed.

>without a lying face
Is this your way of saying "no but those guys don't count since they don't agree with me" in advance?

kek

>Corinth

Apples and oranges. Britain is isolated so few migrating people in general compared to Greece.

There is loads of historical evidence of depopulation + migration.

So name one historian who agrees with you

so how are they genetically the same as ancient Greeks again?

Crete is an Island. Different from the Greek mainland which was subjugated to migration, population decline, depopulation, repopulation, genocide etc..

Need me to pull that famous quote of Athens being an Albanian village during the 1820's?

That is the problem with you tards. You neglect a lot historical documentation and ancillary works that debunks the notion of modern-day Greeks being pure direct descendants of ancient Greeks.

The destruction of a city, or even multiple cities, is not genocide. Greece was never subject to genocide by the Romans.

And where is your proof that modern Greeks are not descended from the ancients besides 'there were a lot of migrations n shiet'?

>You neglect a lot historical documentation and ancillary works that debunks the notion of modern-day Greeks being pure direct descendants of ancient Greeks.

Except no one said that. You said 'they aren't related to ancient Greeks'.

Name one fucking historian who agrees with you. It isn't hard.

Could it be because no historian would agree with you and you're spouting bullshit that Nordicists dreamed up a hundred years ago?

Read Kontogiorgi, you utter fucking cretin.

I've provided several references as to why. The Huns and Germanic tribes sacked hundreds of Greek towns/cities killing more of the Greeks of antiquity.

Not one historian will say that modern Greeks are genetically pure ancient Greeks!

Name

One

Historian

Who

Agrees

With

You

That's a good point user! If Greeks suffered from huge genetic variations, you'd see huge differences between the mainland population, and the population of Crete, Cyprus etc.

...

They aren't related genetically to ancient Greeks. The likelyhood of the average modern-day Greek being a descendant of an Ancient Sparta is slim to nill.

dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/hellenes/

>muh historians

I don't need a historian to agree with points im making which are legitimate.

>Not one historian will say that modern Greeks are genetically pure ancient Greeks!
Okay, this has cleared things up for me. You've never studied history yourself and only have any familiarity with it from pop culture. No historian would use a term like "genetically pure".

They're largely the same people as they were in ancient times with some admixture, whether you like it or not. Woodhouse, Grant, Boardman, Seleas, all the biggest guys (for you) who operate in the field of Greek history and anthropology agree with this.

Except their is big variance between Cretans, Cypriots and Greek mainlanders. Mainlanders being the most mixed.

Your coming off the assumption that I'm a nordicist which I am not. The fact remains that the likelyhood of the modern-day Greek being genetically descended from Ancient Greek is minuscule with the references I've made about immigration, migration, depopulation, genocide, repopulation etc...

>Not one historian will say that modern Greeks are genetically pure ancient Greeks!

Good thing nobody's fucking saying that you nigger goddamn. There's a middle ground between 'modern Greeks are identical to ancient Greeks' and 'modern Greeks aren't related to ancient Greeks', and in that middle ground reality exists.

>hey guys 2+2=5
>no it doesn't you retard no mathematician would agree with that
>MATHEMATICIANS ARENT QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT MATHEMATICS I DON'T NEED THEIR APPROVAL TO MAKE A MATHEMATICAL POINT

Fucking kill yourself you pathetic piece of shit.

Answer this. Are modern-day Greeks from the Pelopense descended from the Ancient Spartans? The Ancient Spartans who were a extreme minority within their own state?

>has no sources
>thinks we should believe him
Wew lad

The article states that modern greeks are more or less the same as ancient greeks phenotypically, which means they probably are more or less genetically as well.

Literally what the fuck does that even matter.

BTW the further you go back the more ancestors you have (and 2500 or so years ago is quite a while back) so, yes, probably a lot of modern Peloponnesians are descended from ancient Spartans

Except that most Greeks today don't believe in the middle-ground. I said before in the Spartan example that Greeks have a better chance of being descended from Helots than Spartans in which I find it laughable that anybody, historian or not would say that modern-day Greeks descend from that minority.

Oh really? Hardly! Fact is that Spartans themselves were a minority within their own state, in the single digits percentage wise. And if you read the history of the Pelopennes then you'd know how ridiculous you are by saying that they might be descended from the Spartans.

Who gives a shit what Greeks today believe? That's not what we're talking about at all.

You know Helots were ancient Greeks too, right?

Why are you so fixated on the Spartans? Spartans don't represent all Greeks.

The Helots were originally the Spartan's neighbours in Lakonia and Messenia. They were probably genetically very similar to the Spartans anyway. The modern population of the south of Greece is practically the same as it was in ancient times. It doesn't matter whether they were Spartans or Helots, they were the same people anyway.

WHAT IS WITH YOU AND THE FUCKING SPARTANS JESUS CHRIST

Obviously not all Greeks are descended from the Spartans. Nobody seriously claims that, it's just something you've made up for the purposes of this argument.

And why are you being dismissive of historians? People have dedicated their lives to studying this. It's what they do for a living. They know more about it than you or I ever will.

Except they aren't. Historical evidence of what happened to Greece from Roman occupation of Hellas to Greek independence from the Turks gives us a lot to think regarding the supposed continuity of Ancient Greeks to Modern-Greeks.

For crying outloud, the Greeks in 1923 took in 1.3 million eastern Christians from Turkey who couldn't speak a lick of Greek and were called Turkosporos by the Greeks themselves. The population was around 6 million at that time.

Think please.

You didn't even read my post did you.

How many parents do you have?

Two.

How many grandparents do you have?

Four.

How many great-grandparents do you have?

Eight.

Go back to fucking 500 BCE or so and that's a shitton of ancestors.

It's the reason for the 'everyone is descended from Charlemagne' meme.

Do you get know why it's not outlandish to say a decent chunk of modern Greeks might very well have Spartan ancestry?

Why are you incapable of providing even one piece of peer-reviewed historiography that supports your claim? Are you fucking illiterate?

>Helots related to Spartans

[Citation please]

Spartans were literal Nazis when you think of their eugenics and seeing as you could only be a Spartan if both your parents were. Moreover, the Spartans as all Dorians came from Central Europe in the 11th century BC. What mixing they did with post-Mycenian civilization natives were probably the nobility of Laconia.

Yes.
>The Ancient Spartans who were a extreme minority within their own state?
Yes. This is great because aside from being ignorant of history and genetics, you're ignorant of how the basic concept of a family tree.

Yes, it is extremely likely that a modern-day Greek is descended from an Ancient Spartan. In fact, that's far more likely than someone from the ancient Peloponnese would be related to a spartan because

>Go back to fucking 500 BCE or so and that's a shitton of ancestors.
Go back to 750 AD and you have over a trillion of them, counting 'duplicates'.

Except it is outlandish considering the history of Greece between the 2nd century BC to the 19th century AD.

So 1923 never happened? You can literally Google you daft cunt. Are they related to Ancient Hellenes too when a lot of them couldn't speak Greek and were most likely Armenians and Arabs?

So you ignore historical migrations and repopulation of Greece with non-Greeks. Are you slow? No Greek today is related to an Ancient Spartan.

>Are they related to Ancient Hellenes too when a lot of them couldn't speak Greek

Probably yes considering they were fucking Greeks jesus christ.

>were most likely Armenians and Arabs?

Are you just saying random shit now?

Why the fuck would a lot of Greek christians be 'most likely Armenians and Arabs'?

"Spartan" isn't a genetic term. Go back to /pol/.

Alright, congratulations on being retarded and unable to process simple information or use basic logic I guess.

Why don't you consider immigration, depopulation, repopulation, war, genocide.

Do you not understand the simple concept of ancestors increasing as you travel backwards in time?

I'M probably descended from an ancient Spartan at some point in the line and I'm a fucking Mexican.

1.3 million Eastern Christians not Greek.

You should definitely look into suicide

Clearly you lack it since you ignore fucking common sense.

Mostly Greek.

Do you think the Turks were just sending random Christians who had nothing to do with Greece to Greece for no reason?

>its a /pol/ my ancestors could beat up your ancestors 101% pure white european thread

Veeky Forums was a mistake.

Are you not familiar with population bottlenecking, tribalism? I'm also related to Sun Tzu even though he probably didn't exist.

Even if the Greeks WERE radically depopulated a few times over (which they weren't), it would STILL be likely that any inhabitants of the Peloponnese today would be descended from a Spartan because those invaders were still probably descended from Spartans. In the time between the Venetian Invasions, and Sparta, each of those Venetians acquired 2 TRILLION ancestors. Are you telling me it's exceedingly unlikely that not one of those Venetians had a Spartan among those 2 trillion?

At this point we're not even arguing if modern Greeks are mostly the same as ancient Greeks, we're arguing if modern Greeks have even a few ancestors in ancient Greece, and this retard won't even concede that.

Fuck this board.

Actually most of them where not Greek. Greek was a clearly defined religious term sorry spiros. Today a Ethiopian as long as he converts to Greek Orthodoxy and speaks Greek is considered a Greek through and through.

You're one dumb cunt. You lot keep neglecting the fact that the Spartans were an extreme minority in their state and were ethnically different from the slave population. Considering the immigration, depopulation, repopulation, war, genocide etc.. Not one Greek today is descended from Ancient Spartans.

It's the Carthagian argument all over again you cucks. The Romans killed nearly every single person in the city, what was left (some 50,000) were enslaved and sent to other areas.

The likelyhood of a Tunisian being descended from Carthagians (the citizens of the city) is the same as modern-day Greeks to Ancient Spartans.

You saying they were ethnicly diffrent doesnt make it so.
Why are you sp fixated on the spartans anyway.
What of the Thebes and Athens and Corinth.

Spartans were not the only greeks.

I'm using Spartans as a clear example. People literally forget that other ancient Greeks brought in non-Greeks as slaves or freemen - especially the Athenians.

Well you cant do that its dishonest.
It doesnt matter that they broght in foreigners.
The majority of greeks are related to ancient greeks.

Get over your silly shit.

Spartan wasn't a fucking breed of human. It was essentially a job. All of the other people living there were the same genetically. Hang yourself, imbecile.

Spartans are ethnically different from Helots. Spartans being a pure Dorian people descended from their forebearer that migrated from Central Europe in the 11th century BC to Greece.

We all know how the Spartans viewed non-Spartans on racial grounds.

And you're being dishonest by saying the majority of Greeks descend from Ancient Greek.

Literally all the fucking historical documentation of war, migration, immigration, genocide, repopulation etc... debunks this.

1.3 million eastern Christians many of whom couldn't even speak Greek and were called Turkosporos by the Greeks themselves in 1923 have zero connection to ancient Greeks. Add put that into the fact that in 1923 the population of Greece was around 6 million tells us a lot.

Moreover, the input of Slavic, Albanian, Vlach-Romanian people into the "Greek" identity also shows how your "most" comment is autistic and ill-thought. Unless you're prepared to say that Slavs, Albanians, and Romanians also mostly descend from ancient Spartans.

You have to prove that, but i know you cant.
Just hecause they viewed them that waybdoes not make that view accurate.

You have nothing whybdo you persist on makeing indefensible statements?

Spartans were an ethnic class. This isn't difficult. All the race theories of Nazis literally were inspired by the Spartans and how they conducted their business you do realize this?

Can you prove that any of this makes them not decended from greeks.

The modern Egyptian is decended for the ancient.

Why is this even important to you?

>
You're one dumb cunt. You lot keep neglecting the fact that the Spartans were an extreme minority in their state and were ethnically different from the slave population.
No, I'm not.

Can you fucking read? The fact that they were an extreme minority is completely unimportant, because of the shape of a family tree, except for yours, which is apparently a single line emerging out of road kill.

Even if the population of Greece was totally killed 9 times over, and replaced by Albanians, that's fine, because the Average Albanian also is probably descended from a spartan, and the average German, and the Average Italian, and the average Turk.

Why the fuck do you keep posting about Sparta?

You do know that wasn't the only polis?

Can you prove that they were the same as Helots genetically?

The Spartan and their forebearers were a military aristocracy that ruled over a large population in contrast to themselves. Considering that they placed a high emphasis on eugenics and not mating with people outside of their tribe lends credence to the fact that they were not related to their slaves.

We have seen this before. How likely is a Tunisian descended from a Carthaginian? Answer: About the same as modern-day Greek to a Spartan.

I mentioned that earlier he os just a dumb cunt.

Can you prove they were different? Actually the only thing i have to know is that the helots were greek which they were.
Sparta was not the only polis. Using only them makes no sense.
Its all speculative bullshit.

>my opinion is fact, this isn't difficulty.
>the nazis agree with me.

Read a fucking book. No, not Mein Kampf or the Bible, read about genetics before talking trash.

>Why is this even important to you?
See

So here's what I don't get about the 'everybody ever got raped out of existence' school of historiography.

As modern intellectuals have discovered, "Someone is doing the raping". Greeks are not Greeks because every single one of them was killed off by the Turks.

OK, but the Turkic homeland was conquered by countless people as well, including the Ancient Greeks! So there are no Turks, either. So who wiped out the Greeks, who probably didn't exist, in 1453?

Dude read at least basics about Ottoman period before sperging out and speaking with such conviction.
Only major external influence on Greeks were Slavs who settled there, became Christian and thus mixed over time.
But in general Greeks of today are Greeks of the old, genetically.
Culturally, that's a different story.

the jews probably

Polish nobility viewed Polish serfs as different ethnically.
Doesn't mean they knew shit.
You sound civil unlike other stormfags but your arguments are awful.

How does that matter.
Spartans were not the only greeks.

No, that retarded theory has been discredited

For once I agree with the streaming retard

>spartan was a race

You can actually pinpoint the exact moment the people there stopped being romans and became greeks.
They decided to invade Turkey, which was essentially in civil war, and the volunteer army of Ataturk fucked them so bad they abandoned the roman idea and became greeks again.

So you see, the italians fucked the greek out of them, and later the turks fucked the greek back into them.

Yeah because ancient Greeks were obviously some sort of hyper-homogeneous group unlike all other ethnic groupings in history.