How fuck do I become a builder?

Sassy

Alright amazing, the original question was just a catchall.

So firstly what are the sort of jobs you generally end up doing. I'll say that what we do most is fairly straighforward reconstruction work on rubble walls, repointing and mostly we do it in lime, mostly this is in stone barn conversions so that's building walls and punching in windows and doorways and whatnot. Pretty simple. That and building boundary walls, also simple.

If you work with ashlar and fluted stone and all that fancy stuff could you tell me how that business is generally because that's something I don't get to deal with so it's quite interesting to me personally.

Some general questions;

How many people do you employ?
How do you go about generating business?
Where is most of your business directed from?
Who are the best paying clients?
How did you start?
How did you expand?

That's about all. If you've got anything you think I'd be interested in to say then I'd appreciate it.

Those were different times without paperwork bureaucracy

im not op but im 21 and in the uk
i work in footings now and have been for about a year and im slowly getting to understand stuff but im a slow learner so..

what are some ways i can become faster? do you have any good tips?
how did you get to the point were you own a company? do you do private jobs or do you have site contracts?
how important is who you know side of things ? as i am really shit with people

Was only 12 years ago m8.

Bump

I started by myself after working for my uncles mason business. The cash is unreal if you work hard.

The trick (for me) is to stay way from commercial property. I almost exclusively deal and Residential Properties. I build fire pits, fire places, patios, tuck pointing, if it has mortar, I'll do it. It's all the same.

There is far less competition in residential and you can charge way more.

I deal with any kind of natural stone.

I currently have 2 employees, besides myself. I pay them 15/hr.

Angies list is amazing for business, look into it. Truth is though, customer referrals are 75% of my business.

Business is directed from referrals, Angie's list, and most importantly that no one ever seems to do (probably because they don't do residential) is to FORM RELATIONSHIPS WITH LANDSCAPING COMPANIES. Their customers talk about wanting a fire pit? I charge 2500ish, landscaper charges 3300, everyone wins.

Best paying clients are rich people in uppity neighborhoods. I gouge the fuck out of them.

I started by forming real relationships with customers on the job. Legit ones. They told their friends, got me work, and I expanded.

Okay sounds exactly like my boss, residential; rich people, etc;

The landscape gardener shout is a good one. Uncle's a landscape gardener I might give him a shout. In terms of stonework in America I'm not sure if you have different styles, here there would be three types of stonework that we deal with absolutely, and that's; Rubble Wall construction ( in lime ), Ashlar and Drystone walling and Dyking which might be a particularly British thing, but I assume you have rubble walls there the same.

Not sure what the British equivelant of Angies list is, is it where customers look for jobs or is it a yellow pages affair? You have a website?

And most importantly what sort of skills do you feel would be necessary to make a half decent job of going it alone to call yourself a comprehensive stonemason.

I could have a go of most of the stuff my boss does except only he uses the stone saw ( but fuck stone saws that looks like messy work ) I think i'd prefer to split by hand if I could, and it looks much nicer.

Stonework seems straightforward as fuck compared with more technical building work, concrete pouring and whatnot, but maybe that's just my perception.

AFAIK boss gets a lot of work with insurance jobs who just see a high rated website on google and have money to burn so often he'll be doubling the quote because he wants to avoid the job and then getting it anyway because it's an insurance job.

Thanks for taking the time to write the post out.

I'm not on a cpu so it's difficult to type a lot. I don't mind helping though if you're serious.

You're using terms I'm not familiar with, but I do the majority of my work with limestone. It's a natural stone from indiana so it's dirt cheap. I'm not sure what a rublble wall is. Is there mortar?

I do have a website but I'm hesitant to post it to Veeky Forums.

As far as going out on your own....confidence and a diy attitude are all you need. I had 0 construction experience whatsoever when I started with my uncle. After 1 year I left him and went on my own. Here's the thing though....I was his only employee. That means that I did 100% of every job start to finish. My uncle is also in his 70s so he was never there. I called if I had a question and used the Internet if all else failed. But I'm a diy guy and can figure shit out, some people are retarded and can't do that.

Don't be afraid of the saw. Learn everything. Nothing will kill you faster than a customer wanting something and you not knowing how to do it. Always lie and bullshit then if you dint know, then figure it out. Saws are vital and you can't always use breaks.....caps, seat walls, anything round, endless.

Another thing I do I got from my uncle. In America we have the advantage of Mexicans. They're amazing at everything. They aren't my full time guys, but I can call up a crew of them anytime I want if I land a big job and it needs done right and my guys are busy. I pay them 25/hr and treat them well....they treat me well in return. By approaching a crew of guys like this you could get them in your pocket and on call.

Masonry is amazing compared to other types of contracting. The materials are almost free. $100/ton for lime stone? $4/80lb bag of mortar? Sure. My margins reach +1000%all the time.

Just finished an outdoor fireplace.

1100 in materials
1200 wages

Charged 12k. Easy. Id post a pic but the limit is 4mb and idk how to resize.

Look up some stone masons in the area. Go drop by a few of their offices in person. Ask for work.

Work hard and learn everything.

Then become your own man.

Rubble wall is just picrelated, it's how most old stone buildings we deal with are built and then with some nice thick quoins round walls, doors and windows. Ignore the grouting shit of the picture, that's just the structure. Some old buildings will only have a single skin, so no double skin with rubble infill. When you meet that you know that whatever Irishmen these Victorians contracted to build their house were some victorian cowboy builders. Anyway I was just curious for your experience and how it is in America. As far as stone saws are concerned it's something I'll have to get around to, it looks big and dirty but I can't imagine it's too difficult.

One final thing, which I suppose there's not a lot you can help me with and it surely boils down to experience, is how I would go about pricing jobs. I'm competent in most basic aspects that we're talking about which I learnt on site, but pricing and what my boss is actually being paid to do a job is not something he's keen to talk about. I've heard some real shockers other stonemasons in the area charing OUTRAGEOUS prices for small jobs on the theory that they'll land 1/10 of these silly quotes. But in terms of general pricing is there any rule of thumb to go by?

Would deciding on an hourly rate for myself say 40£/hr, estimating the time for the job something like ((rate*time + materials + stupid factor)*(clients car price coefficient))? Something like that?

Once again, thanks for taking the time to post.

...

I don't put my socks on for less than 800-1000/day. That's what my uncle always told me and it's howi bid. 3 day job? Better be $3,000.

Most guys use a formula similar. It's about how much you want to make for your time.

>how I would go about pricing jobs.
In the US we use a legal variety of price-fixing called a CONTRACTOR'S BLUE BOOK.

it tells you how much other people charge, and that's what you charge.

the only reason it's not against the law is because you don't HAVE to charge that much, it's just a suggestion.

all contractors have their own variation of this, whether it's called "estimating software," or "price guides," or whatever.

Alright that seems fair. I'll go by that as a guide, 1000£/day would certainly be on the conservative side of some pricing i've heard before in the UK.

Thx m8

1k a day ,no chance ,you won't make "silly money" becoming a builder and your looking at 10+ years of experience before you'd even have the skill to go out and take on jobs yourself

It's painfully obvious that you know nothing of construction. I find it so weird when dudes like you post like you actually know something.

I made 1200 yesterday in 4 hours tuck pointing about 40 brick (not that you know what that means).

What a total and complete fool you are.

Bureaucratically speaking, that's a considerable time ago.

That may be as such.

Yes I do know what that is ,bearing in mind I'm in the uk and so is op,who the fuck earns £250 an hour pointing it's unheard of,maybe things are different in Yankee land but over here you'd be lucky to make £250 a day

Then you guys are dumb asses over there and work for pennies.

NO ONE THAT OWNS ANY KIND OF CONSTRUCTION BUSINESS IS MAKING 250 ON A JOB.

That's fucking insane. You have to pay your guy, but materials, get him out there, then make 150 bucks? You are NOT a business owner and it's obvious.

Stop looking at shit from a $/hr perspective. That is not how it works. When you buy an Iphone do you ask yourself what their hourly rate was ol to make it to decide if the price is fair, or do you just know that you need an iphone and if that's what it costs, then that's what it costs and you'll pay it?

Construction is expensive because 99%of people can't do it. Supply and demand.

When I tell someone a fire pit is 2500,its because that's what I charge for a fire pit. My hourly rate means fuck all.

It's unsustainable to bid on jobs in any other fashion. Again, blows my mind apart when people that have no clue just shoot off total nonsense.

Yeah I think it's reasonable desu, I've heard some real shockers of what rich people, estates, and insurance jobs will pay for some quite simple jobs. Bear in mind I would be doing rubble wall work instead of brick work because where I am ( Scotland ) brick is not really the vernacular material and instead it's more likely to be rubble wall in lime, which perhaps is perceived as a more specialised job than pointing brick in concrete. From what I've heard from some of the established stonemasons quotes in this place, they really do charge some RIDICULOUS sums of money to do quite simple jobs, and that's why it seems like such a lucrative industry.

Noice, idk how to tuck point though, we never deal in brick.

This guy knows

Also, it's stupid easy. Grind out shitty mortar, apply new mortar.

Yeah I'm watching brick mortar pointing videos on youtube, doesn't seem particularly difficult to tuckpoint looks quite straightforward and smart desu. Is grinding more appropriate for brick because that's new to me, we don't use grinders on walls we just chisel the loose mortar by hand.

I mean if it's literally falling out of the joint, sure ill just knock it out, but that's not normally the case. More often than not the mortar is cracked and looks like shit. You must use a grinder to remove the mortar above and below the crack that is still attached to the brick (or stone). If you didn't, the mortar would be different colors in the joint because weathered mortar fades and new mortar is fresh and dark.

Easily 20% of my work is repairing existing brick, stone mortar. I'm flexible on the price because it's so easy but I still start high.

Helps to make up stories about how certain guys don't do it right and the color will be off, or the texture will be different if someone who isn't "very experienced" does the job instead of me.(which is true if they are indeed retarded)

This is that 12k fireplace btw. Work like this creates referrals.

And this is an example of some tuck pointing I did recently. About 1500 for this

Calm down your autism is showing,I work for a construction company I don't own a company,I don't think it's realistic for someone who's never lifted a brick up before to go out and quote those kind of prices ,OP probably doesn't even know how to mix cement.

Also i think things are different here in the uk ,an inexperienced builder won't get any work charging those prices and there's no shortage of builders in the uk so you will get undercut on your quotes.

Well it sucks to be in the uk then. Contractors here value time and even the cheapest guys won't undercut by much, and if they do, you can be sure they don't bale their work much and won't land 5 figure jobs. Those prices are realistic here in the United States. I've made 500/hr plenty of times, but again, that's not how you are supposed to look at it.

Id lay odds that the owner of your company has a set amount of money he must make per day, whether it's 500 or 2000,if it doesn't fit his expectations, he doesn't do it. Doesn't matter what job.

Also , i didn't tell op to run out with no experience and start bidding on jobs. I told him to learn everything he can first, then go for it. I don't know what kind of construction you're in but masonry is not rocket science, it's just very difficult labor.

Yeah mate, no need to be like that, I've been doing this job for a couple of years now I know my way around these types of jobs. Just don't know about the business side because the boss doesn't really discuss that. That's why I'm asking on here.

Smart looking shit man, can you explain how you built that. Guessing it's concrete blockwork with ashlar cladding right?

And if that's $1500 I need to move to America ffs, is that ridiculous overcharging on a naive client or is that actually the going rate for such minimal pointing.

Oh on the refferal point, that's what I'd see as my main problem to getting work.

Firstly, I know that the stonemason industry in my region is bouyant; I know my boss has got full years worth of contracts to do and he's turning down work at this stage. AFAIK all the other masons are chocca, and we're in an area of growth and increasing population. So in terms of that, it's all solid. If I had 14 years of experience and 14 years worth of good looking work and testimonials I could put on my website, I'd be fine. Problem is I've got 2 years worth of experience ( no real problem to me, everybody started out with 0 years ), but no pictures, no testimonials to prove that me MYSELF alone, is actually a good stone mason. So in terms of a writeup I could give myself 'minimally experienced stonemason with no good work to show for it' doesn't really shine bright next to the CVs of the older more established masons here.

In other words, getting the first few jobs, so I can actually get started, getting the first few well done jobs and nice pieces in order to begin a name and reputation, seems to me to be the hardest part of it all.

It's basically a concrete block frame with the stone attached via mortar. I'm simplifying it a lot but that's pretty much it, fire brick here, angle iron there, then the liner for the actual chimney.

The stone attached isn't 'real' stone. They had the option of using real stone but it would've been more money. I offer to do this type of stuff with veneer (concrete poured into a mold and dyed to look like stone) if they're trying to save money. It still looks great and only someone in the know would realize it isn't natural stone. Not to mention veneer is STUPID cheap.

As for the tuck pointing....

Theres some other spots around the house that I fixed, but nothing much. It's about how you approach it. I don't say "hey I'll redo mortar on 30 brick for $1500". I say "I'll fix all the brick on your entire property, replacing some as needed, repairing any broken mortar anywhere at all, and I'll even tackle some things that could be a problem later just to avoid you having to do this twice sometime down the road".

I also show pictures of my work.

Being smooth with people helps a lot.

PS I over charged a bit. That job was done at the house owned by the gm of the indianapolis colts. But it didn't matter, I was subbed out for the work by a landscaper, and he isn't going to split hairs with me over a few hundred dollars.

Okay, 12K for a job like that is fucking ridiculous but I'm happy for you to get it, you're doing a good business. And thanks for the tips and taking the time m8.

Thanks. No problem, good luck.

Once you feel pretty confident just go do it. If you try you're 80%of the way there.

>is a do-it-yourself kinda guy
>doesn't know how to resize images

El oh el

He was posting from his phone, dumbass.

Just lie.

I had 1 year experience, told them I had 8 and had been doing it since childhood. They're none the wiser. If your work is good no one cares. Now, I didn't put them on my website, but I took pictures of the jobs I did with my uncle, created a portfolio, and told them it was my work that I did....because it was. I did do the work. I could replicate it.

Honest Abe is broke.
Lyin larry is rich.

If your work is legit, no one will care.

> Angies List

Can you expand on this? I registered my business with Angie's list and have not gotten a single call out of it.

Do you advertise with them? I tried calling for advertisement and was never able to get a person to get a deal done. I think it just told me to email them, and someone would get back to me, which they never did.

How do you fill cracks in the mortar on a pool patio?

I had one customer ask me to do this, and I tried filling the cracks with epoxy grout and it just turned into a mess.

My best friends girlfriend has worked there for years and still does. What city are you in? They have hundreds of people that cold call businesses daily they want it so bad. Hard to see how you couldn't get through.

This is how it works. You MUST have 2 (maybe 5)I think 2 positive reviews on angies list to be available. Angies list is a paid service and the users don't pay cash to get referred to clowns. I did work, asked my customs to review me on angies list, they did,then I paid for the advertising. They can virtually guarantee you a certain amount of work depending on the package you buy. At least you'll get the calls.

Easy.

Grind out the mortar and apply new mortar. Thats it. Why would epoxy stick to mortar, and even if it did it wouldn't look the same.

I don't mean this as a fuck you, im sure you're a good guy, but this is exactly why I can charge what I do. I do it right without a second thought, and if they don't pay for my good work, they end up with epoxy filling cracks in their mortar.

Shouldn't take more than 20 minutes and like I said earlier, socks don't go on for less than 800. What's the hourly on that? Shiiit

Hmmm. I'm around Atlanta.

What'd you pay?

I have Google reviews and Facebook reviews, will those count towards Angie's List?

What machine do you use to cut out the mortar?

Well it wasn't my area, a random lady called me and asked me to do it. I gave it a shot and it did not turn out great.

But EVEN IF you get the old mortar out, then put new mortar in won't there be a color mismatch between the old mortar and the new mortar? She was concerned about a mismatch and her budget was $500. Lol. it was a medium sized pool, stone patio, and there were hundreds of cracks, all the mortar was fucked.

>easy

To you yes but if you've never pointed up before it isn't,and a beginner is likely to make a messy job the first time around,thats why I suggested op needs a few years experience first because it takes a lot of trial and error before you get the hang of it.

Like if he points it up on a baking hot day it might dry out too quick and turn to dust or he might get the mix wrong and it doesn't set.

Anyway get the mix right (4 sand 1 cement measured) add plasticiser to get a smooth creamy consistency grind or chisel the joints out properly and compact the mortar into the joints with the trowel so it doesn't fall through ,and don't do it on a boiling hot day.

Fair enough. Thanks for the tips.

Also i think we're talking about different kinds of jobs here, as much as I'm able to use cement, I'm not really a fan I prefer lime, it's easier, more room for error. It all comes out the same colour anyway and it sets nicely. May be that I'll be doing more work with cement, but repointing with cement's something I've never done and we've never been asked to do. Building in cement sure, that's a piece of piss, and repointing in lime only. Patio work we've not touched, but I can't imagine it being particularly hard. There's no swimming pools round here, but LOTS of old buildings so I'd be aiming mostly for the kind of restoration work and traditional stone masonry that I do now, because that seems to be most of the market. That and proper stone carving ashlar work which is incredibly interesting but does require a properly skilled stone mason to do ( I'd like to give it a shot though ).

I pay 500/month, totally worth it. You need angies list reviews only.

You use a grinder. Looks like a dremel but beefier and you would put a 4"mason wheel on it. You just need to get about an inch deep so that the mortar sticks.

There will be a slight color difference being that the new stuff will be a few shades darker, but after a few years it will blend in. Theres just nothing you can do about that unless you replace it all.

Id tell her to go kick rocks. 500 isn't even close if there's that many cracks. That must be some old shit. It requires maintainance and she's gotta fork it out.

Me saying it is easy isn't to patronize anyone or get av inexpensive guy to try and do it. I already posted twice now that op needs to learn this himself before he goes out to get his own work. It does not Take years of experience, if you read the thread you'd know I had 1 year of experience before I went out on my own. There is not much trial and error. It's playing with play doh. Anyone that's even mildly intuitive can do this. People just won't put in the effort so I make a killing.

Also you too much and. At least for the shit i do. I bet that shit is milky and has to get in deep crevices or something. Less sand=stickier mortar.

Everything aside, my uncle is old school and always told me that people in GB are the best masons around.

He told me you guys don't even use mortar most of the time. No idea if that's true.

I neve realized how different masonry was over there. Seems more lucrative on this side of the Atlantic.

>thinks it's impossible to resize images on your phone

Jesus Christ how autistic is this board? I thought you were supposed to become millionaires not writhing retards

Yeah a lot of the work we get is on so called 'drystone' walling. Very ancient houses were built of this but they're not common and most old houses ( Mostly victorian era ) we work on are built with the same principles but with lime mortar to hold it all together. Then some of these were sealed with concrete harl which really fucks the houses up and that's a great shame.

But most drystone walling that we work on is that of boundary walls around fields, as far as I'm aware, back in the day when farmers plowed their fields, they'd have to remove a great deal of stone from their fields in order for it to be plowable and then with this excess stone they built drystone boundary walls around the perimeters or as retaining walls. So there are thousands of miles of these types of walls, more or less around every field and along most country lanes, and obviously they are crashed into or topple over regularly and someone has to come fix them so we get those jobs, or sometimes somebody wants a new one constructed as a retaining wall in their garden or just for aesthetic value around their property.

It's an interesting way to build, takes a bit of practice but it's nice not having to deal with cement or pointing and just being able to pile up a nice big fat wall. Would enjoy doing this type of work a lot but it's also fairly common so it's a pretty standard rate, no real room for getting big money from it because it's unusual.

youtube.com/watch?v=d3lcAUsvvnA

That video is dealing with a very perfect representation, in the real case you're normally trying to incorporate the biggest stones possible inside the wall for strength and speed and so it's laid less in courses and more freeform, and also much bigger coping stones which is how the real old school guys do it.

>talking about shit no one in this thread cares about in the slightest, adding no substance whatsoever

>calls the rest of us autistic

a "builder." Could you possibly be any more vague?

>you were supposed to become millionaires

You honestly think even 1% of these autists will become millionares?

Thanks for explaining. That's what I thought.

The reason I used epoxy and like to use epoxy on a lot of projects is that it is extremely durable and has a little flexibility (It's very unlikely to crack).

Kinda what I thought. I bet if a mortar guy came out, she'd be looking at $10k or so to have it all redone right.

Might do Angies List. I pay $150 per month for a little Google ad and I think it got me 1 or 2 calls a month (my average job leads to $900 revenue).

Agreed.

Carpentry, tile, none of this stuff is hard. But someone who has never swung a hammer in their life might look a little dumb the first few weeks.

Really I'd say it's that touch, that feeling for a situation and exactly how to do it in record time. Once you've been doing a trade for a year plus you can usually look at a problem and know exactly how to work it in the fastest time possible.

I don't know where you're located but I'll run you through how to do this in Australia

> (optional, but helps getting an apprenticeship) Take 2-3 month short course in your trade of choice at local tafe, depending on your finances this may or may not be cheap as chips

> Apply for apprenticeship at construction company, your best bet would be to do ether carpentry and joinery or bricklaying, as this will give you the largest body of knowledge. Also, it's probably best to do this at a smaller company, because then you'll actually learn more then just your particular profession ( Ie. There's loads of apprentices that literally only do residential timber house frames in estates, and it's probs best not to pigeon hole yourself to early)

> endure 3-4 years of indentured servitude as apprentice

> Work as contractor or employee on building site for a couple years, learning how to do shit not in your apprenticeship course

> Take builder's exam

Your now a registred builder, ready to take small to moderate jobs or contract to larger sites. It's not a stereotype, builders do make fat stacks after they've established a business, but it's a pretty harsh lifestyle.

Take all of this with a grain of salt though, I had grand plans to do all this but quit during my apprenticeship because I couldn't take the lifestyle.

I can understand your thought process since your instincts don't point to mortar. Really it's her fault trying to get a non mason to do work that a mason does.

If it's what I'm imagining, it would definitely be in the thousands. Especially if the joints are wide. That's a shit load of grinding. I look at it in linear inches normally. If we get up to 100's of linear inches, break out the check book.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with angies list. It's a very real and useful advertisement vehicle.

Agree 100%

It's just repetition. You'll have that aha moment and it'll be a breeze at that point as far as knowing what to do and how to do it.

I think the barrier to entry in masonry isn't that's it's technically difficult....it's that to learn you have to work for someone....and the work can be fucking brutal. I've had days in the past where I had to move 1000 cinder blocks in a wheel barrow uphill in grass to someones yard. You have to be willing to do that and be physically capable and most are not both.

>gets proved wrong
>"lmao dood but nobody cares XD"

Everytime

>How fuck do I become a builder?

Change your name to Bob

If I have no prior experience in any trade field, what would be the best way to get in and get experience? Going to shops with a resume asking for an entry level job?

Buy your kneepads first.