/rpgmg/ - RPG Maker General #149

He may be small but he is very important.

Has anyone figured out how to make gameplay FUN? I've felt for a long time that gameplay is always the weakest part of RPG Maker games and why successful games(Lisa,To The Moon etc.) focus heavily on story rather than combat.

How should I go about trying to make combat fun instead this generic RPG gameplay everyone has played through a million times?

Well, depends on the people playing. Try out some games with unconventional playstyles, like YonYon's games for example.

YonYon is a japanese dev who made as many types of games with RPG Maker as he could possibly think of, all with a gender-swap theme.

There's also HLF who made three games so far and he's been trying to change up the forumula too. His first game features regular RPGMaker combat, then his second game is a stuck-in-a-house puzzle game with many ends and solutions featuring no combat. His third game, which he is currently working on, has combat where there are no level ups and enemies stay within certain difficult constant BUT player and his party can gain stat losses and boosts through various events.

Both of these peoples' games can be found on TFGamesSite.

This is related to people always wondering how to make RPG battles more difficult, because everyone's used to

>equip the relevant status- and elemental-resistant gear
>apply (de)buffs
>dps
>heal if necessary
>win every single encounter

Practically every RPG has terrible combat, including the mainstream commercial ones, like FF, SMT, and whatever else.
Nobody would turn on their favorite JRPG, FF7, and start running around looking random battles, because they can't wait to start slaying monsters.

JRPGs make their gameplay interesting with different progression systems. Basically everything outside of the actual encounters.

>Nobody would turn on their favorite JRPG, FF7, and start running around looking random battles, because they can't wait to start slaying monsters.
Y-yeah... no one. But I dunno, I kinda like how the combat system works in certain SMT games (Not SMT1 and the like ofcourse) and enjoying fighting random encounters atleast to some extent. Same with certain FFs where I can exploit the system for fun effects, like FFT.

Aand if you're not satisfied with that, then you'd have to actually improve your combat system.

You can improve a battle system by making it require more knowledge or more skill.

>knowledge
You can make your battle system more complex by adding more elements to it, like positioning in SRPGs.

>skill
Lots of games incorporate real-time elements to their battle systems.

Some have QTEs like Mario RPG or Undertale.

Some are other genres that are actually fun, like Mass Effect is an FPS or Tales of is an action game.

Sure, but I doubt you'd enjoy them if you didn't save your progress afterwards. Nothing related to developing your characters by spending JP, leveling your characters, collecting items, or what have you.

Traditional RPGs usually rely on the "cookie clicker" game play element to provide fun. Basically repeat an easy activity to gain resources which let you unlock coolstuff, and said coolstuff has the effect of allowing to gain even more resources to buy the coolstuff++, which the eventual dream of finally unlocking the Ultimate Definitive Coolstuff that more or less automatically gives you resources just by investing time.

But that doesn't mean it isn't fun. It is a proven trick on human psychology that sense of progression + some vague element of surprise provided by randomness will keep us doing something.

Children will start multiplying 2x2x2x... with a calculator in their spare time the moment they discover how. Casinos make millions with things like Pachinko or Slots.

A bump a day keeps page 10 away

Did you take the bodies and double the height?, r something more crazy?
Either way, that proportion looks good and I'd be glad to see rectangle size MV sprites.

Grinding, samey battles are accepted in RPGs for any number of reasons- despite not really being that fun. I mash attack through most games I play.

Maybe the story is good, or people like seeing their characters grow or feeling achievement from finding treasure and/or beating a dungeon or tough boss.

I'd say, if you want battles to be long, complicated, challenging and "fun", do not make them random.
Things get boring and tedious the more you see them.

Also some of those Pachinko machines are very flashy and very anime. Sometimes the visuals alone will print money / provide "fun".

Yeah, I tested a few things and double the bodies' height just felt right.
I'm just not that fond of the chibi style MV has going on.

Wake up!!

Grab a brush and put on a little makeup!!

I have a question. When it comes to games like Space Funeral and OFF, do people not mind the fact that there was pretty much no thought put into the combat?

I personally feel that even though it isn't my preference, the ease of combat is partially what made both of those games work. I feel like if they had been legitimately challenging, it would have bogged down an experience that was so heavily centered around the weird world and creatures in it.

So when making my cool quirky mcguirky rpg #45, should I really strive to make an interesting combat system, or should I just stick to basics and just hand players everything as long as they aren't completely retarded.

>do people not mind the fact that there was pretty much no thought put into the combat
Those games, as well as others of their kind, have environments that are far too interesting to ditch because of basic combat.

As long as your world is interesting/amusing enough, nobody will care. Hopefully.

spoilers: highly presumptuous, of course, but the crowd interested in rpgs aren't the most skilled or ____________, so they're not "really" looking for difficult games. they're looking for interesting plot/characters/settings/whatever

"Interesting" combat doesn't have to mean "difficult", btw.

I haven't played Space Funeral but I don't think that people like the combat in OFF. It's really bland and completely forgettable.

>When it comes to games like Space Funeral and OFF, do people not mind the fact that there was pretty much no thought put into the combat?
I do, somewhat. I kind of agree with what you say - that the simple and easy combat in those games does work for what they are, letting you breeze through them and focus on the style.

I don't think the gameplay part of either game was very well designed, though, even in that sense. OFF's dungeons in particular felt tedious. Easy and boring is much better than hard and boring, but boring is boring, and if there's nothing to the battles themselves then they'll become a chore as soon as the player gets used to whatever weirdness they keep running up against.

If you're making a similar game, I'd suggest one of two approaches: either keep the combat simple and easy, using it for flavor and keeping it rare so that it doesn't get tiring, or put the work into making it consistently entertaining and using it in a way that enhances rather than distracts from the game's atmosphere.

If you just want to make something weird, the first way is probably fine. I don't like slogging through endless random battles where all I have to do is mash attack and sometimes heal, but it takes a bit before I got bored of it.

It was forgettable in the sense that there weren't any interesting mechanics, but the names of the moves and the actual enemy designs were creative. That much did stick with me.

Working with Storyline Creator is really nice. It helps to organize your thoughts and to get a structure in there.
Good night bump.

If only.

I just tried the demon without realizing you can't save. Oh shit.

Be creative, and don't be afraid to do something new. It doesn't matter if someone has already done it though; you're always standing on someone's shoulders. I have a distraction ability where if successful, the enemy will turn around to look behind them. Since they're standing the other way, you deal extra damage from behind, so it can be worth using. It's also random what he says to distract, and I'm trying to add as many funny lines to make less redundant.

Maybe you could try to implement a little skill requirement from the player as well, so they have to do something when they use certain skills (combo buttons and such).

Just remember to think this to yourself: Is this the same battle the player will have to fight for the rest of the game?

hopefully i do more than one portrait a day when i wake up

Brum

This falls in line with something I have observed recently, not just in RPGs or games in general, but across pretty much all forms of fiction in the past two decades:

Interesting characters playing off each other in a solid setting, with plot sometimes even being secondary (or just an excuse to force interactions between those characters).

Look at all these procedural TV show that have a case of the week, a monster of the week, or whatnot. They rarely live off the content of the week, but the way the characters respond to it, deal with it, and play off each other.

That's no excuse to write bad plots on purpose, I think. But look at how the general attitude to, say, the myth arc of the X-Files is as compared to many of the monster of the week episodes. Especially when taken into account what a complete mess said myth arc has become. I think the term 'plot tumor' exists for a reason.

At the same time, completely relying on procedural plot content seems dubious to me as well, as I think it lacks some of the underlying magic.

Just my two cents, I make no claims to having any idea what I'm talking about. Just something I have observed.

A while back someone posted the cracked version.

Whoever that was: thank you. It will help a great deal on all of my upcoming projects.

I am making a game with a quirky setting built around visual gags, but I don't think that is the case.

I mean, if the combat is hard and the player dies a lot needing to backtrack a lot, then that raises tension and the player is less likely to explore (short of huge rewards). That is probably true. But it doesn't mean the simplest form of combat is necessary.

For example, my plan is to have every enemy have some kind of connection to the environment so they play off the visual gags in the scene. And since every combat started out from the mechanics before going into the monster design, with the idea that every monster would have glaring strengths and weaknesses. So, the player needs to understand what the the monsters are before launching random attacks, which in turn I hope will make him pay attention to the environment (since it plays into the monster designs).

So, for example, the rubber ducks in the beach area will counter any physical attack, and are impervious to water and electric attacks. It is obvious what element you need to use to beat them. Unless you don't figure out they are rubber ducks. But if you pay attention to the area, there are giant bars of soap laying around and lots of bubbles and foam (including other enemies that use foam to hide or bubbles to fly).

>It is obvious what element you need to use to beat them.
Are there only 3? Because that's the only way it'd be obvious from the information given.

There are four. But the other is neutral (until you find the Rubber Duck inside a bubble variant).

And come on. Rubber vs Fire or Rubber vs Ground?

I don't see any reason why hitting a duck with a rock would be more effective than hitting it with an oven. Ducks are water-type, so neither should work all that well.

That's why I'm making an action RPG.

Rubber ducks are rubber-type, though.

Plus, you could always try beating it with ground and then checking in the almanac and seeing it is weak to fire.

I've been wanting to steal some of the mechanics from FFXI, Mainly skillchains and magic burst.

youtu.be/I6UuABAPWmk?t=7s

On a vaguely related note, I'm also not a big fan of going through areas in RPG Maker games, at least when they're RTP. Something about the act of walking/running around and exploring a dungeon just feels off to me, for whatever reason, in a way that isn't the case in the final fantasies or dragon quests.

You're definitely onto something. There are way more Law and Orders in the world than Twilight Zones. There's a reason why so many copies of those procedurals are allowed to exist: They're simple, and go down easy. Plots get people thinking, and thinking takes effort, which the general audience can't always afford (or want) to do. Even the critics on the Hollywood Reporter talk about how they haven't bothered to start Great New Show A, but have completed their entire DVR backlog of Big Bang Theory. One requires active engagement to fully enjoy, and people's attention spans are getting stretched enough as it is. Side note: I love the Twilight Zone, but only watch a few episodes a few times per year

I also believe writing for TV has become really homogenized: The new Muppets show could have been done with real actors and a different name, and nobody would have known the difference. It's another case of using an established brand to jumpstart a production (Powerpuff Girls, Ghostbusters) without remembering what made the audience like it to begin with. (Teen Titans GO! is an exception, because they're *fully* aware of what they've done)

Bump.

>wake up
>page 10
no

Newest Yanfly tips & tricks: youtube.com/watch?v=Obs1kOtpnqk
It teaches you how to transfer a party members status effects to an enemy and their remaining turns.

This is why I wholeheartedly believe that people that are inexperienced with RPGs as a whole are perfect people to design them (as long as they understand how basic balance works).

It's easy to fall down the rabbit-hole of how RPGs combat, stats, equipment, progression, etc should behave when you've been so conditioned by other RPGs over the years.
When somebody that isn't well versed in the genre tries though, they usually tend to think of more creative ideas involving combat or progression and thus make more interesting games as a whole.

>Storyline Creator
lol

kickstarter.com/projects/434922482/storyline-creator

That's a bit sad

Do you have any examples of that? I do agree with what you're saying, but it'd be nice to look at some of those more creative games.

You could argue from the other position, though: once someone's done a 'traditional' RPG, there's the chance that they'll want to go beyond that, and bring in ideas from elsewhere.

How do you guys go about your healers?
I'm love healers but I'm afraid dedicated Healers will turn my game into a stall fest bar obvious counter mechanics but if every boss has the same anti-healing mechanics that is lazy.

Would be limiting heals to something of the nature of a Limit-Break or making them very expensive MP wise be a good solution? People like offensive gameplay more then defensive.. so..

Take into account that RealTimeBoard exists, which not only allows you to do what Storyline Creator does(which is literally just a simple mind map), but it's also free and has tons more features, including the ability for multiple people to work on a project at the same time.

cooldown

It depends on you, there's so many ways healing has been done and can be replicated in RPGM.
You can do DnD style healing, or the very similar FF style. Hell, event "x limit per battle use" system even. There are so many ways to customize this
You could do large draw-backs, like expansive MP you mentioned, or maybe either debuffs on cast (and even delayed casts) or till next action. That limit break could work too.

You could also limit how much HP can be restored and even set it to scale based on who is healed. Maybe make it a nice skill to use, but not something that can out-heal damage. There are many different games you can reference for ideas, like Darkest Dungeon for example.

Just like, play around and see what works for YOU.

>Do you have any examples of that?
Sorry, I don't really have any specific examples.
I guess I'm speaking more theory than actual proven ideas.

To be fair, he asked for a bit too much money considering the scope and idea of the software. It's a planning device. You definitely do not need $11,000 to make something like this. Plus he used Papyrus as his font of choice for his rewards section. The only thing he missed was to use Comic Sans with a pink color aligned to the right for his description.
I like the software and all, but man.
Plus there's Bibisco if you want less of a visual planner and more of a "what do I need to do" kinda thing.

>Bibisco
Eh, that's more like a set of questions that you could just copy and paste somewhere else and never have to use the software again.

I hope you all have a wonderful time working on your project

Don't do what Breath of Death VII did. The healer was the most powerful attacker and spellcaster in the game, as well. However, you needed to heal basically every turn, so they'd be on healing duty until you got a spare turn to do some decent damage.

>Breath of Death VII
>Cuthulu Saves The World
You mean these gems were RPG Maker games?

>Guy is asking for advice on RPG Combat
>There are RPGs that weren't made with RPG Maker

Anyone try to remake/make a card game, kind of like: Shandalar, MtG, Yugioh, etc?

Zeboyd used their own engine, IIRC

Sorry for my shitty art.

I haven't really done any concept art on my main character yet and I'm kinda torn between two styles.
The MC is supposed to be lazy and really doesn't enjoy having to do anything that involves leaving the house. If he has a choice in the matter, he will usually turn down jobs and requests.
The game is also a little quirky and strange, so I originally drew all the eyes as circles instead of normal eyes or anime eyes.
The left version has normal long hair and a sort of "too cool to do anything" look to him. The second version has a "really lame" look to him and has a mullet instead (because mullets are pretty lame).

Which looks better?

I have played around with similar systems. The main one I worked on for a long while used both cards and dice.
When trying to implement a TCG in RPGM, there's basically nothing of any use in the existing classes, so it more or less has to be done from scratch. I'm not gonna lie, it was too tough for me -- I eventually gave up on bothering with an RPG frame and just worked on getting the game playable with real cards. I do want to go back to the project someday.

Oh, I have experience with working on a TCG game using real-life templates... but yeah, was wondering about working within limitations of RPGM system, especially since both VXAce and MV offer so much in scripting possabilities. I mean it would be easier to do it outside of RPGM, but that would take the fun out of it.

Thanks for the input user, do you still have the prototype of that projects you worked on?

There are a few, like Tomoaky's, and I was working on one at one point. youtube.com/watch?v=g05gmQeZibU
After I finish my current project, I'm likely returning to it.

It's actually just as difficult/easy in RM than out of it. RM just comes with everything else, like item inventories and menu systems.

In terms of the rules implementation, I threw it straight in the trash. After struggling with hacky-bodgy air-quotes solutions for a while, I decided it wasn't salvagable anymore. Trust me; my Ruby skills were not up to snuff.

However, I did go on to re-use the maps and such for an entirely different game. One of the few projects I can call "finished", though it still leaves a lot to be desired.

And actually, the inspiration for that project is Deus Cards, made with RM2K.

It's got some gamebreaking bugs, and the balance is terrible, but it's still one of the most impressively evented games I've seen. Definitely worth checking out for anyone interested in RM beyond RM. RM2K.

youtube.com/watch?v=P7wji1X36AM

>Hear about LISA
>Decide to buy it
>Start game
>Walk to the left
>Die

What a short but enlightening experience.

I'm using Falcao Pearl ABS Liquid v3 for a combat system. I noticed that loot drops persisted between area transitions, with the drops staying in their relative location on every single map. I know little about scripting, but I did find the section of the script partaning to resetting aspects of the combat system, including drops. I'm unsure how to call this, but I was able to copy this section of the script and throw it into every area transition event: $game_player.enemy_drops.clear

Am I being unobservant and there is something in the documentation I missed?

Bump

Is there an easy way to make a status effect restrict the character from being healed?

If you download Yanfly's Special Param Formula, you can edit healing parameters. youtu.be/a90vP0jVWIE

So this way you can just:
>Create new state, let's call it: "No heal"
>Set it's parameter to "Recovery Effect 0%"
You can then test by creating a skill that afflicts a user with this state and test any healing item on afflicted user.

Yeah that does it, thanks.

Good to know, but too bad this is a "all healing or no healing" solution.
I haven't tested yet if you can make conditional disable of healing, like say for example not be able to use healing magic BUT be able to heal using a physical attack or item use. Or any other combination of the three where atleast one is allowed and the others are not. Would be interesting, right?

yeah the only thing I could imagine that you could do there would be adding an event that would remove the status as part of the attack, do the healing then re-add it with the same amount of turns or whatever remaining.

Can always work on a javascript that recalls the source of the healing and acts based on assigned permissions. Basically saving you the work of manually having to edit everything yourself.

Making spooky enemy sprites and eating cheap shrimp noodles. A patented wednesday evening

Waaaay too spooky user

Any mana-like plugins?

If not, how good is Yanfly's combat system? Im trying to make a mix between SoM/SD2/3 and SMT.

Did Yanfly even make an action battle system?

I dont think so, but I could probobly find some compatible add-ons to make the next best thing and my friend can probobly tweek the code.

It would just be a million times easier to find a mana-like system.

The art's not bad, but it definitely needs more work done with it. If it matters, A looks better though B's hands are slightly nicer.

I can't really recommend the anime-style circle eyes if the rest of the art style isn't going to compliment it in a unified manner.

Only other advice I have is to work on his eyes more, make them "closed" more but not actually closed, and shrink the pupil size down to a proportionate level.

Pretty nice, though the hands look really tiny and not like bones

Thanks. That's true, I'll fix the hand size. Had to tone down their color apart from the rest of the body because the left hand had the same color scheme as the ribcage.

I think I will try to make something based on the Tekken Card Game at some point. But I am still not sure. I want a combat system for a lewd game that can simulate completely owning a monster girl in a fight and taking time to molest her for funzies. So something like, it plus a Taunt mechanic seems like it could work well enough. Although it might be necessary to extend the periods during which the player and enemy are vulnerable. So, perhaps a mana or charge system could be incorporated.

MtG and YGO require evaluation of non-convertible resources (card advantage, life points, mana parity/tempo, resources necessary in the graveyard or battlefield) can't really be translated into each other all the time and also demands certain opponent awareness (am I fighting a combo, control, aggro or midrange strategy? And what does that mean), so I think that it would be really hard to make an AI that can put up much of a fight. Even in the official games, the computer usually needs "mind reading", broken/stacked decks or special rules to be a challenge. IMO.

Maybe if you went with a simpler engine. Just placing the top card of your deck as a resource/land every turn, fusing the Main Phase and the Battle Phase, making all blocks 1 on 1, etc.

Or maybe just go with "every game is a puzzle" approach and give the opponents scripted decks that you have to disrupt.

I say go with B and try the old Archie or Scooby Doo eyes (just dots and upper eyelashes). I guess the character reminded me of Shaggy a little.

when find come tell

I'd actually say it's incredibly easy to create a competent YGO/MTG AI without those cheats you mentioned.

The majority of the actions made in those games aren't ambiguous decisions. If you have a card, then use it; if not, then don't.

>certain opponent awareness
This would be the only thing interesting about writing the AI. This is pretty much what determines the "personality" of the AI, and determines in what manner you can "game" the AI.

How much screen time does the hero need with their mentor before the mentor is killed off?

Speaking of AI, the Shandalar game I mentioned? Really bad ai, sometime the enemy will buff your guys for no reason or make some really weird misplays. Good game that I suggest checking out regardless though.

I made this forest way too fucking big, but I'm already a good way into detailing it, and I don't want to throw out all that work. Maybe I'll just crop it down to the completed area.

>Want to start making some custom art
>Know I could never match RTP style
>Don't want to have to make custom art for the entire game

life is suffering

Honestly, people will like your game more if you made the effort of having your own custom art even if inferiour to the built in resources. And if you keep at it, you can only improve.
If you got a game like this Llama Wars, for example, it can be really charming. youtube.com/watch?v=_OueW8IoqCM
Ofcourse if it's something like World of Nora... then it just looks painfully bad.
theworldofnorathegame.blogspot.nl/?zx=421e92cf190d3043
That said, the guy has been improving if you look at what he's been posting in progress reports and the clown that he has drawn came out really well. So who knows where it'll go, all I know is this guy's game is buggy as shit in ways that could've been easily fixed long-ass time ago.

It'll just take a lot of time. You have a lot of time. Do it.

I recommend not doing it. My events for this is miles long. And creating a non-retarded AI is pain. This one is loosly inspired by triple triad from FFVIII, but only the 3x3 format.

So how exactly do I go about starting to develop a game and in this case more specifically an RPG?

Alright, you guys have convinced me. Pic related is my first attempt at a custom portrait for the party healer.

Do you have RPGM yet? It's easy to start anywhere, so choose whatever suits you best.

Personally, I always start a project by hammering out the unique mechanics. I like writing and mapping too, but I'm a designer at heart. Once I've nailed down the implementation for some interesting tricks, the story and setting will naturally develop from there.