So why do people give France shit for surrendering in the twentieth century?

Sorry, but which country are you from? Just to know how many times an invader just had a "beeline to your capital" and you did not loose in the end.

US

Also going back to the Chinese example: the ROC lost its capital, Nanking, and did not capitulate. This, btw, on top of a civil fucking war.

>So why do people give France shit for surrendering in the twentieth century?

The French themselves are largely responsible for it. They preferred and perpetuated the myth that France was easily overtaken for reason X but were not truly defeated, and instead fought a spirited, united resistance against the Germans. Even de Gaulle knowingly pushed it.

In reality many French, not just elites like Pétain as the myths would claim, collaborated with the Germans, often enthusiastically, and found the Vichy government and even German occupation to be the leadership they had wanted since the political turmoil and riots of the 1930's. The French right wing used the slogan "better Hitler than Blum" years before the invasion. The Vichy government passed anti-Jewish and anti-communist laws totally independently and without the influence of the Germans. 3/4ths of all Jews arrested in France were arrested by the Vichy police. They were the only country to deport Jews without the presence of occupying forces. Even after the allied invasion and in the last eight months before liberation they're arresting and deporting over 15,000 Jews.

All of this wasn't even truly revealed until the 1970's. There's a documentary from 1969 called 'The Sorrow and the Pity' made for French TV but even that was banned and not shown until 1981.

Example clip; youtube.com/watch?v=YcRgxlgSXsg

Better to live with the shame of surrender, at least then you're the victim instead of a willing collaborator or even accomplice.

because belgium held out (comparatively) longer than they did... also, they could've defeated the nazis with ease had they not been total french faggots

They surrendered within 5 weeks to a tyrannical fascist who intentionally murdered millions while everyone else fought. And it's not even like they didn't have the manpower or military might, they had some great tanks and good infantry.

>Gnatzies
Any relation to Gnorcs?

>while everyone else fought
You know that during the massive retreat there was not only french soldiers right ? The british also retreated from the blitzkrieg.

Also you must remember how generations had been traumatised by WW1 and just didn't want to enter into another conflict.

France was merely the only Western country with the Sun King at its centre. Germany, Italy, etc. were either cities like ancient Greece or the Pope's hand puppets (Spain and Portugal).
Russia became a contender with the first Tsars, but until Napoleon the relationships were rather good.

The Brits didn't surrender though did they.

The Brits were also in WW1, as were the Germans, obviously, and the Russians, and basically everybody in WW2.

Sorry you can make excuses all you want but there is no excusing that surrender by France.

brits were at it for a couple of years before americans joined in

The genetics theory goes that all the french with balls were killed off by WW1 and napoleonic wars, leaving only the cowards to be conscripted in WW2

>We could maybe even see the Brits fight before the Americans got in. rofl
The British were already fighting in Egypt whilst the battle of Britain was happening

Same for Hunder Years War in France, which was also a civil war, and there was shit like the Black Plague. And the Germans/Britons/Italians and Spanish allying with England. You may have things to learn on the Battle of France, like political interests involved because we did not surrender for Paris. Read Also, iirc Canada kicked US ass by taking DC twice, didn't they ?

Belgium fell in one night idiot.

>Sorry you can make excuses all you want but there is no excusing that surrender by France.
Shitty French politics at the time (coughpetaincough).

There, I excused it.

On paper now, yes. On the ground then, no.

All those doesn't matter. To recent history, France's surrender in WWII mattered to the *current* outlook of France being a surrender faggot. It is what everyone remembers.

They sit on their asses allowing Germany to overtake Austria and Czechoslovakia, while they entered war to defend Poland they sit on asses and did nothing while most of Germany army was focused in Poland.
And French were always meddling in countries between Germany and Soviet Union.
When war finally came to them all their defensive strategies proven to be shit but instead trying to improve and try to hold line like 1914 they surrendered and far to many French willingly collaborated with Nazis.

>The Sorrow and the Pity

Another good interview. One of the 40,000 French who fought with the Axis.

youtube.com/watch?v=6qsOH1ALlSo

you dont consider the battle of britain 'fighting'?

There was no way France could have stopped Hitler alone. During munich the French under Daladier wanted a repressive policy against Germany but it was Chamberlain who refused to support them.

I advise you to look at the military expenditures of France and Germany pre-WWII so you can get an image of how France had no other choice than to submit to the appeasement policy.

It was really more the stupidity of the allies that allowed for the capture of france, not any german innovation. If the french had simply attacked the paper-thin german column during the decisive stage of the manstein plan, WWII would have ended.

I don't consider the BoB to be fighting on continental Europe to stop the German. It was defending your nest, sure, but it wasn't fighting the German on purpose

well there were also raids on berlin before that(?)

>once a pussy always a pussy

idk senpai, I think if your country is an embarrassment during both world wars people would be inclined to give them bants.

that did not alter the German production machine now, did it? It just made them angrier, and killed children and widows. Also if you want to go there, the French had also raided Berlin during BoF.

That's no way to speak of the British Empire and her dominions, lad.

France had better tanks and MORE mobilised force than Germany when they declared war on Germany yet they refused to do anything while German army was in Poland until they got invaded. After that French Right basically willingly surrendered just so they could play their Mini-Fascism under German control. It was very shameful, it still is.

Also if French military doctrine wasn't so outdated (Due their socialist government and not their military, which pushed doctrines of mobilised warfare much before German Blitzkrieg) they could single handedly put Germany out of war as soon as Poland got invaded. It was also completely unexpected and was very alike to Franco-Prussian war, similarly where France was better equipped and had more numerous military but failed completely due their government and unwillingness to change their military structure.

France military might, genius, innovation and respect died with Napoleon and it didn't get any better until 1980s.

...

>yet they refused to do anything while German army was in Poland
They had a three week offensive against the Siegfried and got BTFO by a force half of the size. There's no reason to lie on the internet user. The reason the phony war broke out is because the French had already broke themselves on the Siegfried.

>surrendering in the twentieth century

Let me guess, you think France surrendered in WW1?

Retard.

France didn't have "better tanks". Its tanks had better cannons and more advanced technology, but German tanks were faster and more mobile, which is all that mattered since it allowed the Germans to pass through the Ardennes faster than the French could catch up to them.

And the shitty military doctrine wasn't due to any socialist government, but to the total political instability in France in the 30s which meant that every government stayed on average for a few weeks, never long enough to make any reforms.

I have mentioned outdated military tactics with tanks mixed with infantry rather than mobilised force. Which is why they failed even reaching Siegfried, also they just fucking gave up and left in the sight of first resistance.

>did nothing
>did something and lost horribly
Pick one and only one, froggo

>hurr durr French are cheese eating surrendering monkeys XDDDDD

You are full of shit

Did something half-hearted, occupied very weakly defended positions then left at the sight of significant resistance.

The French surrender monkey meme has almost nothing to do with any wars and everything to do with France being (ironically) the only Western country not to surrender to American imperialism after WW2.

Specifically two events:
- France putting an end to American occupation of French soil in 1959
- France opposing the US led invasion of Iraq in 2003

The forced meme campaign against France is about shaming any opposition or non-submission to American foreign policy.

The French surrender monkey meme has been around since before WWII even ended. Revisionist pls go

It wasn't about resistance, the French military was doing this against orders, and it got called back by Anglo-French command.

No it wasn't. Before WW2 ended there were movies being made to the glory of the French Resistance.

Lad... Both the British and Germans were telling French surrender jokes while the war was still going on. Propaganda movies are just that, propaganda movies. We even had them for the Soviet fucking Union here in the States.

No. At most there were memes about France being "ungrateful", because in 1944 French Resistance prevented the US from putting France under American administration.

"I would rather have a German division in front... than a French one behind" - Patton

Literally fuck off, Francophile shill

Where are your sources?

The Germans certainly didn't consider the French cowards, and they, like everyone else, only made these jokes about the Italians.

On the Internet it's a thing because they refused to back America post 9/11 and in those early days it was mainly Americans on these boards due to simply having the larger middle class and also more nerds
Americans might also force it to overplay how great they were at overthrowing the British which had to contend with two other empires at the same time immediately after a war with one of those empires

Patton never said anything of the kind, since he wasn't actually retarded and had actual experience with warfare and with French troops. This is a quote that was made up and falsely attributed to Patton by US Defense Secretary James Schlesinger on Fox News when France opposed the US invasion of Iraq:

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_S._Patton#Misattributed

An amazing example of how well US propaganda works on brainless muppets like you.

>they refused to back America post 9/11
But they didn't. French soldiers went to fight and die for America in Afghanistan, all while Americans were calling them all cowards.

It's the Iraq invasion, which was completely unrelated to 9/11, which France didn't support. But I guess history sure proved them wrong, Iraq and the Middle East are in much better shape now.

Because americans are fucking retarded.

It was a much more logical option to just surrender to nazi germany than to waste a shitload of life trying to fight off the inevitable.

>James Rodney Schlesinger was an American economist and public servant
I can't think of anything more despicable than these paper-pushers and comedians calling soldiers cowards.

Also

>James Rodney Schlesinger was born in New York City, the son of Jewish parents
Every single time.

Pic related, Jonah Goldberg, the National Review blogger who forced the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" meme by spamming it in every single one of his articles during the run-up to the Iraq War.

>merely a coincidence

This meme that the socialist government was "anti militarist" in France was popularized by disgusting collaborators like Petain. In reality the Blum executive was the only government after WW1 which massively expanded the credits of the army, most right governments even lowered it because muh no profit.
Source : a recent book in french I don't remember the name about popular misconceptions about WW2.

i dont even think they really surrendered, they got 99% of their nations capital gold out of the country and long away from nazi hands before it got anywhere near. they had their shit together,

beyond that its just backwash across the rhine shit as per usual.

big game of keep away of netherlands, france, englands gold from nazi germany/hitler. operation fish

say what you want about the world wars hog tieing the glory of many more smaller wars, 30 years etc, but it was 2-0 on pax anglo else we'd all be speaking fucking german right now.

It's just a meme that originated out of American anti-French sentiment during and after WWII. Americans got in enough fights in France after cracking jokes at their expense that an entire Army manual was issued before the war even ended to get servicemen to shut the fuck up. No, really:
marshallfoundation.org/library/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2014/05/112-gripes-about-the-french.pdf

Can't say I blame them either. Frenchmen were VERY ungrateful toward Americans. The women, on the other hand, not so much.

By back I meant be their little finger puppet to use at their will
As this is a thread about public opinion on France, I was talking about public opinion on France back then when they were indeed waging war and agree intervention in the Middle East was pointless.
Btw Do you think it should've been just special forces hunting down ring leaders and bombing supply vechiles in Afghanistan or what as I'll definetly agree it was a waste of life and installing a new government could have gone a lot smoother

There isn't anything there about cowardice, only "ungratefulness". See
>The women, on the other hand, not so much.
Haha rape is hilarious :D

There is literally an excerpt titled

"The French have no courage. Why can't they defend themselves from the Germans?" you lying fuck.

No, the Taliban had to go since they were supporting terrorists. The trouble is the invasion of Afghanistan was kind of half-hearted and most of the effort was diverted to the Iraq War giving Bin Laden and Al Qaeda time to relocate. And the Iraq War in itself was the most monumental mistake in a long time.

Didn't see that you salty insecure faggot, but there is literally every insult imaginable listed in there, 112 of them, one half contradicting the other.

I never implied otherwise. I simply implied, correctly, that the meme originated during the war and its immediate aftermath.

But it didn't. You can find instances of every nation on Earth being insulted as cowards, that doesn't make those memes.

It only became a low level meme in the 60s, and it only really took off around 2003. But even if it had started in 1944, it would still be about French lack of cooperation with American imperialism.

Nigger, if it makes into an Army service manual because it's causing fights on level that it becomes a theater-wide problem: it's a meme.

>Nazi using meme magic to defeat their ennemy.

A manual that lists 112 different insults, which all contradict each other.

>A manual that lists 112 different common insults
FTFY. They obviously aren't coming from the same person, you fuck. They're just common sentiment among American servicemen, and the American populace, during and immediately after the war.

>the French are
>ungrateful
>unreliable
>unwelcoming
>unfriendly
>unhelpful
>I hate them
>arrogant
>they rip us off
>irrelevant
>too dependent
>too independent
>cynical
>too conservative
>too decadent
>too critical
>too direct
>too dishonest
>talk too much
>dressed too poorly
>dressed too well
>parade too much
>dirty
>lazy
>primitive
>women are too easy
>women are too hard
>immoral
>drive too fast
>poor equipment
>aggressive
>cowardly
>too mean to German women
>too nice to German women
>prices too high
>too tolerant
>thieving
>everything is run-down
>everything is in too good shape
>corrupt
>too many political parties
>too radical
etc

Can you think of an insult that isn't in there? The difference is that one of those turned into a meme obsessively forced by Americans a few years ago, while the other 111 didn't.

It never stopped and it wasn't even a resurgence in 2003 like you're trying to claim. It was just a continuation of decades of abuse towards the French. If anything you'd have an easier time claiming it started in 1995, but that's not true either.

>it wasn't even a resurgence in 2003
Oh wow

I'm guessing you're too young to remember 2003. If you weren't you'd know that around that time every American newspaper, TV show, website was filled with surrender "jokes" and insults about France every day. Before that the meme only existed among bitter American baby-boomers who were pissed off at De Gaulle.

>it wasn't even a resurgence in 2003
Are you serious?

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, freedom fries, daily late night jokes from every single comedian, newspaper editorials, SNL skits, Bill O'Reilly's boycott... Were you even alive in 2003?

>France refuses to surrender its sovereignty to the USA
>USA denounces France as surrender monkeys
This is hilarious

Again, people were making jokes about the French being "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a decade before. I was alive. I grew up in the fucking 80's. It's been around for a very fucking long time. I've already posted evidence to your "IT WAS SOLELY A 1960/2003 PHENOMENON". It was a common joke amongst servicemen during the war. It was a common joke amongst servicemen after the war. It was just a continuation of a very long line of abuse towards the French that caught international media attention despite going on for several decades. If you don't like it, take it up with fucking George Marshall or the American GI liberators of France, I don't give a fuck. Those are the facts, do with them whatever you want.

it's easier to find 2000 guys to go on a plane than 3000000 people to carry a rifle

This and also they had many, many chances to BTFO Germany.

If, at any point before Dunkirk, they had gotten their heads out of their asses, WW2 would be known as the Second Franco-Prussian War and only autists on Veeky Forums would know it happened.

>Again, people were making jokes about the French being "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a decade before.
No they weren't you lying fuck. It's an obscure 1995 Simpsons reference that was forced into a meme by Jonah Goldberg from the National Review during the run-up to the Iraq War.

youtube.com/watch?v=A0yxfVFDD-0

This has been a part of American culture since Petain.

>create America by beating the Brits for them
>be their allies without exception for the next 200 years
>even gift them their national symbol
>they thank you by permanently destroying your reputation in the eyes of the whole world

lmao France

>So why do people give France shit for surrendering in the twentieth century?

Its fat brained american nationalism, France didnt want to invade Iraq in 2003.

Thats it

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about the surrender meme, not about Americans hating France which they've always done. Neither of those has anything to do with Petain, who btw was supported by the US and favoured over De Gaulle.

My autism must intercede here.

>be their allies without exception for the next 200 years

What is the pseudo-war.

You mean the quasi-war? Not an actual war, as the name suggests.

Good point though, barely a few years after France had saved America from Britain, it was now France's turn to get attacked by Britain. So what do the Americans do? Support Britain of course.

Guess they were always backstabbing cunts.

they actually fought the nazis first before being forced to surrender

We hate them for appeasing the Nazis to the point where we had to go across the Atlantic and lose 180,000 men fighting the Huns.

We hate them for spending less time fighting than Poland, and the basic fact that more people died defending individual Russian homes than the entire city of Paris.

For sending 1,000 troops to Korea when we spent 300,000

For fucking up the administration of Indochina so badly that it became ruled by the Viet Minh, thus leading to the US sending 58,000 men to die to prevent the entire region from turning red.

For throwing a hissy fit over the special relationship and pulling out of NATO less than 15 years after the British and Americans laid down their lives to give them their country back.

This isn't something the general public is aware of, but I hate them for introducing the idea of death flights, and for creating the doctrine that Project Condor operated off of.

None of these things are memes. The French are just arrogant cunts.

>be their allies without exception for the next 200 years
Except they stopped being our allies as soon as the war was over and didn't become allies again until 1917 to which they immediately fucked off, refused to pay war debts until roped into it, and ceased to be allies until 1941, they were then allies until 1966 and then ceased to be allies again until 2001. Seriously fuck you. Our relationship with France has been rocky at best.

>We're talking about the surrender meme
Not him, but you've been shown evidence it existed in common American nomenclature before WWII even ended. Just fuck off.

No, you just hate them because you have a gigantic inferiority complex and because it's the only Western country that hasn't submitted to America.

>you've been shown evidence it existed in common American nomenclature before WWII even ended
No I haven't, because no it didn't, and stop trying to use words you don't know the meaning of.

I don't think there's a European country that doesn't hate the US at least a little.

I mean, only the UK and Poland bothered to help us invade Iraq.

Most of them just aren't total cunts about it.

>a primary source document straight from the United States government is not evidence
Alright, froggo. We're done. You're fucking retarded and I'm sick of bashing my head against this wall. We hate you for specific reasons and it's not just because you "don't submit" whatever the fuck that means. We've laid our cards out on the table. We've given you every bit of evidence needed for an academic paper on the subject to prove your idiotic claim wrong. If you don't want to face the reality that people hate you and your country and have even as they were liberating your country then so be it. You can fuck off to the dregs as far as I'm concerned. I hope Ahmed and Mbutu are as rough as possible with your daughter and wife and that they leave you alive strapped to a chair with your eyes open so you're forced to watch. Fuck your entire existence you flaming, snail eating, white flag waving, chain smoking, cheese eating, faggotry creating, triple frog nigger.

>We hate them for appeasing the Nazis to the point where we had to go across the Atlantic and lose 180,000 men fighting the Huns.
And what did American do? You just sat on your fat asses safely on the other side of the Atlantic, doing nothing and leaving France alone against the Nazi machine like the worthless cowards you are. You only joined the war after Japan forced you into it by attacking you AND Germany declared war ON YOU.

>We hate them for spending less time fighting than Poland, and the basic fact that more people died defending individual Russian homes than the entire city of Paris.
You hate them because you wanted to see more dead French people for your amusement? No pretty sure your butthurt came before.

>For sending 1,000 troops to Korea when we spent 300,000
lmao how the fuck is Korea France's responsibility?

>For fucking up the administration of Indochina so badly that it became ruled by the Viet Minh, thus leading to the US sending 58,000 men to die to prevent the entire region from turning red.
When did France tell you to go fight Vietnam and pathetically lose? Who are you to say what kind of government they should have? Not to mention the Viet Minh only became a thing in the first place thanks to American support during WW2, while Americans were fully hoping and expecting they would then go to war against France.

>For throwing a hissy fit over the special relationship and pulling out of NATO less than 15 years after the British and Americans laid down their lives to give them their country back.
How many French troops were allowed to stay and occupy the USA after France saved you from Britain? If wanted to remain a sovereign country instead of a colony is what you call "ungrateful", what do you call a country that immediately backstabs its saviour, refuses to pays its debts, and allies with the common enemy?

>Condor
lol wut

>arrogant
Coming from you fatasses, top kek

>the Taliban had to go since they were supporting terrorists
>muh freedom

What document you dumbass? You don't mean the one that contains literally over 100 different insults of every sort right, we've already discussed that.

> If you don't want to face the reality that people hate you and your country
I never said that. I'm perfectly aware you have always been petty pretentious stupid cowardly ungrateful dishonorable trash, but this is about the origin of the surrender meme. You know that time you were spending your days calling French soldiers cowards while at the same time those very soldiers were dying for the giant turd you call a country. I honestly can't think of anyone else ever doing something this utterly contemptible.