Should we raise the minimum wage?

Genocide when

Then they won't pay more. They only pay what they need to to keep you working and poor. The only entity preventing that is the government. In a perfect world the business owners should want a better society more than money but that just isn't true.

I'd think the number of employees laid off/fired would be corresponding to the amount raised in wages in order to return to the equilibrium.

Also, if someone didn't have the skills or any other desirable attribute to warrant a $15 dollar per hour job, they wouldn't get the job.

Genocide the immigrants. Everyone who isn't white and Christian. But seriously laws to prevent the birthing of new children but implemented in a different way than China. Regulating child birth rates would also prevent the problems you see in Japan where birth rates went so out of control that houses became impossible to afford so people stopped having children entirely and now the birth rate is so low that the Japanese people will probably go extinct in a few generations.

I think it's better to have 3 jobs at $5/hr than 1 job at $15/hr

Then everyone would be poor and natural selection wouldn't eat the homeless jobless.

The purge

THINK about it this way - more money - money consumption. more SPENDING. ie. what makes money more valuable.

no more money makes money cheaper. your logic is flawed your meadow-nigger.

they don't understand that when everybody earns more all of us can afford less. erry time this shit.

>What are the pros and cons, for both business owners and employees, of raising the minimum wage?

In fact what we should do is to create equal wage for everyone. No min, no max, just medium for everyone.

Result:

- The lazy ass stupid motherfuckes will still be lazy, but won't have a reason to bitch.

- The smart and talented will continue working, because typically they love what they do. Also since the only way to encourage and keep these people is to promote them to managers, the overall management will become more efficient and creative, which will be beneficial to the productivity as a whole.

- Poverty will become meme if you have a job.

- The business will thrive because of the better management and higher consumption.

>What are the pros and cons, for both business owners and employees, of raising the minimum wage?
Honestly, minimum wage is pretty fucking dumb.

Workers would honestly be better served by protecting them from foreign competition. Artificially inflating what employers have to pay Americans is only going to make it more attractive to get Paco to do the job on the sly or move the job to Thailand, and prices for everything will adjust in kind nullifying the increase. You can see this in my country Australia, where we have a very high minimum wage and as such the price of goods is very very expensive. I'm talking $30 for a pack of cigarettes expensive. $45 for a low-grade bottle of vodka. Sure these items are taxed to the hilt here, but people can pay these prices which should give you an idea of how it works.

Yeah. Maybe those robots in mcdonalds wont fuck up my order finally

if you raise the minimum wage it will only increase the amount of outsourcing and automation that happens.

theres plenty of shit that has not been automated or outsourced, and much of that is minimum wage jobs.

the largest con comes next. After all the legit minimum wage jobs have been outsourced/automated, the retarded left will blame "greedy corporations" for outsourcing and automating everything and come up with more laws and regulations to fuck the united states straight up the ass with.

minimum wages don't exist in free markets. there is no legitimate argument for minimum wages. if you think you have one, you're just not smart enough to see the bigger picture.

Personally, now I'm no economist and cant turn a profit day trading... I believe increasing the wage only increases what an employer can ask of you, which to me is good. Why? Because we DO have a massive amount of people that are intelligent and hard working but with no education. These people would now be the only ones worthwhile to hire. So if you're a quality human you'll have better options and a realistic way to improve yourself. Who it wont help? Poor dumb idiots. These people will levy heavily towards more welfare to match the $15 wage they can't get a job with. These people would have a net positive gain in society if they were in prison, so we can completely ignore them. I'd say raise it.

>I'm entitled to millions per year despite knowing nothing about the industry I am a CEO in and a golden parachute when I fuck everything up while I blame everyone else, especially the most powerless.

Raising the minimum wage to a level to support the lowest viable standard of living helps everyone. That amount is around $15/hour. A rising tide raises all sails. Those working skilled labor get paid more as all jobs adjust to the new minimum. Labor is only a % of business costs. Increasing pay 30% does not equal prices going up 30%. If labor is 30% of your cost, prices go up 10% and people have 30% more money to pay for it. Meaning they can buy 15% MORE. However, if the minimum wage is raised beyond the minimum viable standard of living, then inflation occurs. It will self correct money to a correct value. In all of the minimum wage increases everywhere in the world and here, a minimum wage increase has never resulted in unemployment spikes. That is a red herring the Koch brothers spend a lot of money on propagating.

In a completely free market, slavery will occur immediately. It still happens today. See: the diamond industry, the clothing industry, etc. And intellectual property won't exist in a free market, so every unique idea would be instantly copied. Businesses will naturally abuse things in the name of profit. Regulation is a must because power makes humans rather nasty creatures absurdly quickly.

>Increasing pay 30% does not equal prices going up 30%. If labor is 30% of your cost, prices go up 10% and people have 30% more money to pay for it.
But user your other costs will increase as well. Your suppliers will need to raise their prices to pay their employees the extra; so your stock or raw materials will go up. Contractors will want more since they don't want to be making so near to minimum wage. Utilities and rents will go up since everyone's getting a pay rise, and so on.

Has raising the minimum wage had a direct effect on jobs before? In politics I always hear things like "this is another watergate" but for finance and business has a raise in minimum wage ever just straight up hardcocked the whole system?

>In politics I always hear things like "this is another watergate" but for finance and business has a raise in minimum wage ever just straight up hardcocked the whole system?
Not sure. Best case imo it's neutral: everyone adjusts their prices a little higher and gets right back to business.
Worst case it's extremely negative: jobs which could be done by citizens are given to foreigners instead, hampering local employment and spending whilst simultaneously propping up international competitor markets.

>jobs which could be done by citizens are given to foreigners instead, hampering local employment and spending whilst simultaneously propping up international competitor markets.
In fact in this light you could almost look at minimum wage as a subsidy on foreign workers and/or a tariff on local workers.

youtu.be/ca8Z__o52sk

/thread

People want to raise the minimum wage because all they think about it dollars in-pocket. What they don't think about is that raising the minimum wage lowers their purchasing power considerably because businesses that have minimum wage workers raise their prices accordingly leading to deadweight losses, higher prices, and more unemployment of minimum wage workers.

Basically,

>switzerland
>no minimum wage
>doing very well economically, low unemployment
why do we have a minimum wage at all?

>switzerland
>no minimum wage
Kind of. First-world countries with no 'legal' minimum wage have heavy unionization which effectively leads to a minimum wage situation anyway, but by negotiation with said unions instead of by legislative fiat.

Increasing the minimum wage here in Seattle has been nothing but a problem for me. Everything is increasing in price and my $22/h is worth less and less everyday but I'm not getting any raises.

>What are the pros and cons of forcing an economic inefficiency into a market?

There are no net benefits. Any benefit is derived from a greater cost elsewhere, otherwise the market would already be doing that. Markets aren't infallible but they do a hell of a lot better job determining value than bureaucrats and mobs.

This

If I have to pay these cucks 15/hr I'll hire the college grads only who are ready with kneepads to give -er get jobs

Enjoy your living wage and student loans. Uneducated fags are still fucked. Sorry wish I could hire some for retard jobs but the government forced me to eliminate those jobs kthx

> pros
it's the right thing to do
the people in this category will spend that extra money on goods and services thus boosting the economy

> cons
tough on small business and really any business with thin margins
job openings will decrease and labor workers will be expected to work harder
prices on some goods and services will increase a little

I'm a business owner and I say do it.

youtube.com/watch?v=Rls8H6MktrA

I love these threads!! Neet losers using their moms wifi to rant about how evil the government and how thee poor arnt real poeple and should be left for dead because theyre too stupid to start their own business

Great post!! Love the enthusiasm!!

Another gem from Veeky Forums!!! This is the kind of incredible economic insight that truly makes Veeky Forums the intellectual beacon of the web

>automation is bad for society

Same goods produced for less labour. You'd have everyone writing books instead of using a printer

Thats right!! I dont need to cite sources or listen to nobel winning economists that disagree with me!! Fuck poor people!! Dam whens mom getting home with my KFC? All this being intelligent makes me hungry

Lol were all having fun here but dont compare your shithole country to america and expect anyone to take you seriously

Ah yes the old "McDonalds has technology that would save them literal billions but are saving it until the federal minimum wage is raised and effects less than 10% of their payroll" argument. Classic Veeky Forums

Really impressive quintuple post, champ.
Your lack of any real argument is very persuasive, too.

>if you disagree with me its because youre dumb
Wow how many awards has your work in economics won? Thanks for contributing to the zeitgeist. We all owe you a debt

If were being serious though min wage increases have never spiked inflation, nor have they caused spikes in unemployment. Only about 4% of americans work for federal min wage right now. The idea that giving this small population people a small pay raise to help their standard of living would be harmful to the average american is propaganda that people who dont bother to do any research or cite any sources eat up.
Min wage will go up again it does under almost every single administration. Its just a matter of how much inflation will happen before the elite cave and throw the people living in abject poverty some scraps

>im not sure but heres my cololetely uneducated opinion anyway
Ok

Nice try neetboy. The only fact based argument in the entire fucking thread is right here. Go ahead and keep pounding on that cheeto dusted keyboard your mom bought you tho.

>I am the only one who is right and if you disagree you are
Sure showed me.

I mean if you want to make an argument based in fact im all ears. Go right ahead

Why don't you provide some examples of economists who agree with you?
You know, instead of replying to a dozen posts individually because you're too stupid to figure out multiple replies.

the problem is that people who make 13 or 14 an hour, which is now quite a ways above min wage, will now be making min wage. comanies are not going to increase everyone's pay by $6 just to be nice. they'd have to be forced to do it.

Sure not a problem man. Heres a link to hundreds of respected economists who want to see min wage raised including a few nobel laureates
epi.org/minimum-wage-statement/

The difference being is that the CEO got their job working while you shit post on Veeky Forums.

And exactly what percentage of the workforce does this apply to? Oh yeah, negligible.

Personally I think 15 is too much. Thats double fed min wage now. Im more for 10 or 11

Lold at this.

Im not an economist, lets have some talk

The bad
>will fuck exports
>there are large diminishing returns on the upsides due to supply and demand

The good is obviois

We dont live in the 80s. China is fucjing us in the ass and we desperatly need cheap labor. No, more immigrants wont help. Our production capacity is softcapped by our natural resources

And what percent do you think a min wage hike would apply to? Personally i think 5% is negligible

>$10.10
That's a hell of a lot lower than the $15 that everyone thinks of when somebody brings up "raise the minimum wage."

Minimum wage needs to be removed or this country will collapse

Ya i dont know anyone who takes $15 seriously. I would hope its just a bargaining tactic ask for 15 "settle" for 10

in my country the minimum wage was raised a few times in this period of 15 years there was an inflation of 300%

Preaching to the choir baby. In fact remove all government regulation. Survival of the fittest. If you cant survive then you dont deserve to live

That sucks for your shitty country id be curious to know if that was causation or correlation tho. Weve had min wage hikes at intervals over nearly a century and never run into any problems tho

Well, you've come stomping in to declare everyone retarded but now you agree that doubling the minimum wage overnight is a bad idea.

I never once said it should be doubled. And none of the threads i mocked/argued with said that a small min wage increase would be beneficial. They were all hyberbolic posts firmly planted against a minimum raise posted in a thread about raising the minimum wage in a broader sense. A price was never set just the abstract idea of raising it. If you assumed I meant $15 then im sorry you had that impression. So you agree that a raise to $10 would be fine?

Out of the dozen or so replies you've posted I was really hoping to hear a response to my last post. I.e. this Milton Friedman video:

youtu.be/ca8Z__o52sk

So far all we've got from you was a bunch of ad-hominems and an appeal to authority. "Respected economist" is highly subjective, not to mention there is no such thing as a nobel prize in economics.(Trust me, google it for more then 30 seconds.)

So let's hear it. Your argument for a (higher/$15/whatever) minimum wage, or a concise refutation of any of the ideas in this thread.
Also, out of curiosity, what is your age/occupation/hourly wage? This is an anonymous board, you should have a problem sharing.

*shouldn't

why not start your own business

Wow first of all theres been an econ nobel since 68 nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/
Now that thats out of the way lets get to the rest of your train wreck of an argument
You posted one economist (dead for 10 years btw) who opposed a hike. I posted 600. >respected is a subjective term
I mean youre technically right. Although the nobel prize i think has a lot of clout. It also includes former cabinet members and washington higher ups as well as professors from the best and most selective schools in the country. Go ahead and argue against all 600 of their reputations tho.
Ive already stated that theres never been a spike in unemployment or inflation from any min raise since 1938. Again thats not speculation thats a definitive fact that refutes what i felt the majority of the posters in this thread were saying against a raise. Not sure what else you want from me

Almost everybody with any sort of education unanimously agrees YES. Problem is those people don't have enough money to buy congress or the media.

>Only economists know
-5/10

>Wow first of all theres been an econ nobel since 68 nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/
Now that thats out of the way lets get to the rest of your train wreck of an argument

-"The five real Nobel Prizes—physics, chemistry, literature, peace, and medicine/physiology—were set up in the will left by the dynamite magnate when he died in 1895. The economics prize is a bit different. It was created by Sweden’s Central Bank in 1969, nearly 75 years later. The award’s real name is the “Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel.” It was not established by Nobel, but supposedly in memory of Nobel. It’s a ruse and a PR trick, and I mean that literally. And it was done completely against the wishes of the Nobel family."

>You posted one economist (dead for 10 years btw) who opposed a hike. I posted 600.
-I posted a specific argument which I asked you to refute or at least comment on. The number of economist refereed to does nothing but bolster your appeal to authority.

>Although the nobel prize i think has a lot of clout.

- Irrelevant, I've already established there is no such prize in economics.

>Ive already stated that theres never been a spike in unemployment or inflation from any min raise since 1938. Again thats not speculation thats a definitive fact that refutes what i felt the majority of the posters in this thread were saying against a raise. Not sure what else you want from me

Straw man argument.
Look I don't know how to say this any other way, but you're full of shit bro.

>minimum wage workers who dont get laid off.
>minimum wage workers who actually are slaves.
FTFY

>raise the standard of living
>decrease the world population slowly
>decrease the world population
>slowly

Get off the internet Führer.

Yes, yes, only the rich work and they're alway right Amen.

I can't wait for people like you to be on the receiving end of this kind of idiocy.

>So you agree that a raise to $10 would be fine?
Sure.

It should be raised, not drasrically and not immediately, but it does need to be updated to match production.

That being said, now is a horrible time to do it because the entry level job market is the worst right now.

Obama got a nobel prize for being black. It's literally a meme award.

How is historical proof that wage hikes dont cause inflation or unemployment a strawman? Dude quit throwing around buzzwords you see on reddit

>historical proof
You mean like "Raising tariffs is bad, because look what happened to Herbert Hoover"?

Context, user.

No i mean actually plotting out inflation versus min wage over the past 80 years. But you knew what i meant

>it does need to be updated to match production.
Assuming you mean employee productivity, why?

Almost all of the increase in productivity is due to new technology (the cost of which is incurred by the business owner), not due to employees suddenly becoming better at their jobs.

>big business benefits from their profits being sliced in half
K

>half of a business's revenue goes into labor

>be me before owning a small business
YES!!

>me after owning a small buinsess and having to comply wth obmaacare

FUCK NO, min wage can stay at cuck levels.

I and millions of other SBO's will go bankrupt desu if it rose sharply

Sucks to suck then, because if it doesn't, millions of working poor will stop fucking working because they're on welfare anyway.

no

min wage is st00pid

UBI is better

>Sucks to suck then, because if it doesn't, millions of working poor will stop fucking working because they're on welfare anyway.

I understand that too, I was a min wage cuck for a long time

Honestly I don't know what to do I tihnk someone has to get fucked either way it goes. And I just don't want it to be me. No one does.

Lol ok man. Me and almost every economist alive today are simply full of shit. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways and not letting things like facts get in the way

Medicine needs to move to a single payer system like every other civilized country. Either that happens or we're going to keep putting bandaids on this broken system until it all comes crashing down.

"Historical proof" is useless when it comes to pseudoscience like economics.
But you already knew that, didn't you?