Hey Veeky Forums, I may or may not have screwed myself over. I drove to oklahoma to buy a car, which is something like 300 miles from me. About halfway through the trip the guy says he can't find the title after he already told me he had it in hand (figures). Long story short he says all he has to do is get a duplicate title and send it to me. He let me take pics of his drivers license, got his info, etc. All was well so I thought. About two weeks later he sends me a pic of the duplicate title and that he'd send it the next day. Well it's been almost a month, it's time for me to get the car registered and I still haven't gotten it. He hasn't dropped contact with me but is kind of spotty on replying half the time, says he sent it out 3 weeks ago through certified mail and that he'd call the post office and figure things out, it's been three days since then haven't heard anything yet. What I'm wondering is that on the off chance I never get the title am I able to take him to court or something of the sort? Considering I have his drivers license and we both signed a bill of sale saying he'd send the title within 15 days.
In some trouble
What car
Yes you can take him to small claims court for that. Assuming the car isn't stolen and he actually has a title, just call him and tell him you are going to sue him if he doesn't give it to you
Why did you continue on if he didn't have the title? I'd have put my foot down and said 'no title, no sale'. Or delayed payment until he fucking found it.
So you're saying you paid for a car without a title? Lololololol idiot
Dude,
This isnt good.
You dont have a title you dont own the car, and it is REALLY hard to get another title for a car.
There is absolutely something weird going on here. Head back, track him down and tell him you arent leaving till you have the title. If he balks, go get a lawyer.
There is 0% hance you are going to receive a legit title in the mail.
Why oh why did you give this person money??
I've turned down great bikes because they didn't have a title
Sometimes it's as simple as going to the DMV and getting it reprinted
Other times it's going to the DMV finding out its been stolen and now you don't have a bike and you're out whatever you paid
Not worth it
You can sue him but you'll have to do it there where he lives, which will involve either numerous court appearances there by you over the course of months or for you to retain the services of a local attorney if you have the resources. Unfortunately, middle class people are often stuck between having the flexible schedule for the former or the resources for the latter. For poorfags, the travel itself can be an obstacle. You might try registering it just using the photo he sent you assuming it was signed and notorized (if necessary) but you obviously wouldn't have signed it and even though the girls at my BMV and title office seem pretty wet for me, I still doubt they'd do it for me here, probably not in your state either but might be worth a try.
I bought it because I literally took a trip to oklahoma for a different car literally TWO DAYS before buying this one that the seller hid shit from me until I got there as well. I was already halfway through this trip and my head would have exploded if I didn't come back with the car. I figure since I got his license and everything I wouldn't have to worry about him being shitty. The guy lived in a halfway decent neighborhood with a family and everything, seemed like a cool dude also. For all I know he did send the title and it really is just a problem with the post office. I can't imagine why he'd send me a pic of the title but not send it. I just want to be sure I have at least some sort of legal grounds in case something does end up happening.
It's still on you. You still bought what is likely a stolen car.
At the very least, you should have 'misplaced' the payment until it arrived.
Bummer man.
I have some faith that it's not a stolen car.
The dude sounds a little off-kilt, but it is possible that he just fucked up sending it in the mail or something. Be persistent and tell him your honest concerns. If doesn't straighten out time to take legal action.
sounds sketchy as hell.
What town is this in?
Use this as a lesson to never let someone owe you something during the sale of a car. In my experience, if it's not on/in the car when you take it home, you're not gonna see it from the seller.
all this talk of stolen cars and none of you seem to know that you can find out if a VIN has been reported stolen online (and for free). just google it, I'm not going to bother linking it for you fags
Well, you're fucked. The degree to which you are fucked depends on how the situation plays out and the particulars of how the DMV operates in your state
Since you don't have a signed and notarized copy of the title, you don't legally own the car. The bill of sale is really only helpful in so far as legally establishing what price you payed for the car when you go to pay taxes, and as an additional proof of sale if you have to go to court. As it stands now, how do you even have a plate on the car? How do you have insurance?
If he sent the title through certified mail, he has a tracking number with the USPS, get it, and call the USPS yourself to see if he even sent the title.
Provided you get the title, how do you intend on getting it signed and notarized? (most states so far as I know, require both of you to sign the title in the presence of a notary, are you going to drive back to Oklahoma to get that done?)
If the title is just farts in the wind, your only recourse will be a lawsuit. Depending on the state, it will either be filed in small claims, or the circuit court for the county where he lives. It would be fairly easy to represent yourself, but it will require multiple trips back for court appearances, would probably be cheaper just to retain a local attorney.
What's the car? How much did you pay?
Ouch, lpg laying it out.
This is a harsh way to learn one of my craigslist rules.
If it comes up once itll come up again.
Sounds like its been sitting unregistered, beig worked on maybe?
It was over 5 grand, wasnt it?
There is just certain shit you NEVER do, and buying a car without title in hand is one of them. The original owner OP bought the car from could report it stolen to his insurance, and if OP get pulled over, he gets to spend the next month fighting a GTA charge (don't laugh, I've seen this happen in real life)
Seller could also have had some kind of payday loan lien on it, and can't get the title. First thing I would do is take the VIN and call the DMV in county OP where the seller lived and have them run it to see if it has any brands or liens against it
Op here. Where I live, in kansas, you're able to use your tags from your previous car as 60 day tags as long as they're still good. I bought the car for 3000$. He said he was getting the title notarized for me there (he works at a dealership). The title is being signed over to me as if I bought it from his dealership even though I bought it privately from him. I know this because on the title in the pic he sent me has the dealership as the seller and his dealer license #, etc. The tracking number part you said is a good point, i actually called the post office and they told me the same thing, all certified mail comes with a tracking number. Hopefully will have more info soon
Sorry to hijack thread but can someone explain what a title is? In Canada we have a registration and you transfer the registration over upon sale. If you lose that piece of paper you simply go to any of the millions of insurance places and give them your license and they will print you a new one for $15. I always thought it was the same in the US but you guys are making it seem like a much bigger deal. Someone fill a snow Mexican in?
>having a title notarized WITHOUT you there to sign it
>forging a title to claim a private sell was through a dealership
No
no, no, no, no, no
Jesus H Christ kid, what the fuck are you doing? Why in the flying fuck would you agree to ANY of this? This went from teetering on the edge of sketchy into outright illegal
Taking a title to the DMV that was sold to you buy a 'dealership' means YOU are now resonsible for paying ANY AND ALL back fees in so far as taxes and registration, and requires YOU to processes a stack of paperwork. It also means the DMV is going ot make you pay state sales tax when you register since it wasn't a private sale
I'll bet you 100 dollars you get to the DMV and the thing has like 2000 dollars of back taxes and fees stuck on it. Absolutely DO NOT accept the title as a dealership sale from some random fuck you bought a car off of, holy christ
You need the title to prove that you own the vehicle. When you transfer ownership, you sign the back of it (some states require it to be notarized), the new owner signs the back of it, and the new owner takes it to the secretary of state/DMV to register the vehicle in his name. If you lose the title, you have to pay for a new one before you can sell the vehicle.
who buys shit without a title???????
i went to buy a bike
>CASH IN HAND
with a trailer, ready to take away
guy had misplaced the title.. he seemed genuine and i believed when he said he'd get the title during the week so i didn't give him any money and went to pick the bike up a week later after he sent me a pic of the fucking title
who in 2016 buys without a title????
that's the title.. if you don't transfer it into your name and lose it you will absolutely not get a new one printed for $15, you need id, it can even be a hassle if you move and your id doesn't match the address on the registration
What kind of car just tell us
>3,000 indian tacos
>had to drive to oklahoma
It's a miata isn't it OP? It's a small state with nothing to do, some user on here probably knows the guy.
>be California
>no notary required for ownership transfer with title
>a notarized application for replacement title and bill of sale is all you need for transfer without a title
>can literally pass title along if fixing a car to resell
Dammit there are some redeeming features of this state at least.
I didn't agree to that part. The plan was to have him duplicate the title and send it to me. I had no idea of the dealership part. I'm not quite understanding what you mean, forgive me for being dumb, so the ONLY reason he would sell it to me as a dealer and not just as a private sale is because it has a shitload of fees? (Excluding the sales tax part)
Fuck if you're feeling like helping someone desperate I could send you the full story/ or other details if you have a throwaway email or something
Hey man, sorry you're getting fucked by my fellow oklahomans, hope everything goes your way.
What car did you buy?
W H A T
C
A
R
It's gonna be some stupid ass civic.
a '93 Civic Del Sol, why?
Thanks so much man
Not OP. I'm dumb in this situation but not that dumb
Well, what car did you buy then?
Tell us, Justin!
Fucking called it.
It's an S13. Don't understand why anyone is curious haha
Here is the deal. There is no LEGIT reason the guy would filter the sale through a 'dealership' unless he has something to hide. Look at it logically. If you ever had to go back and take this guy to court or challenge something at the DMV, the official record is going to say you bought it from a dealership, when in fact this was a private sale from a random dude I am assuming you found on Craigslist
Now if you actually had to contact that 'dealership' they could say they have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, because why would they have a record? You didn't actually buy it from them
Like I said above, buying a car from a dealership also initiates a completely different processes with the DMV in terms of getting the car registered. Dealerships have ways of generating titles for cars that a regular person doesn't, meaning he could a title for sale on a car that the DMV might otherwise not issue for unpaid taxes/fees/liens/unpaid registration
Now since it's marked as a dealer sale from out of state, you are going to have to pay sales tax on the car when you go to register it since most dealerships can't/won't collect tax for out of state buyers, You will held responsible for any back fees this guy has hanging out on this car (unpaid DMV fees, unpaid sales tax)
Do not EVER agree to let a seller manipulate the sale to reflect something that didn't happen, it can ONLY hurt you. As it sounds, I would just go ahead and contact a lawyer and explain the situation.
You paid 3000 for an s13 with no title, mismatched body panels, and no interior??
holy fuck what a terrible car
Nah. It's pretty clean. Full interior also.
So it doesn't matter that his name/dealer license # is on the title? They just look at it (in court) as if it's the dealerships car? So would waiting for the title (if ever get it), signing it when it gets here, then going to the dmv to see if there are indeed backfees/etc, be a dumb idea BEFORE i talk to a lawyer?
My roommate had this exact same problem, the guy was just a lazy slob and finally did it. Guess you're asking for the ride now, maybe it'll have a good resolution in the end
I really hope so man
>would accepting responsibility for who knows what fuckery is going on with the car be a bad idea before talking to a lawyer?
Yes that would be an incredibly bad idea.
Yes it would be a bad idea
Let me put it to you this way, why would you EVER accept a Bill of Sale and a title that lie about the transaction? You didn't buy this car from a dealership, why would you ever want a title/paperwork that said you did? Why would put your name on something that isn't legitimate? Even if there was absolutely no malicious intent (which I doubt), it creates a headache for you because your proof of sale isn't reflective of what actually happen. It does nothing but create potential problems for you with your insurance/dmv/reselling it later on
Step one would be calling the DMV in the county where the seller had the car registered, giving them the VIN, and seeing if it had any flags on it for unpaid fees/registration/taxes.
From the sound of things man, you have run into a ghost dealer. These are people who, through whatever means, have a dealer's license, and use it to get around state restrictions on the number of cars you can sell in a year. Basically it's just a more advanced form of car flipping; these people get the license, which gives them access to dealer only auctions, buy up cars cheap, then pretend like it's a personal vehicle they are trying to sell privately. Did you do any type of VIN check on this car before you bought it? Do you have the VIN handy right now?
>he drove 300 miles to get scammed over a piece of shit S13 with a truck engine and a wet noodle chassis
>no LEGIT reason
It doesn't count against the number of cars you're allowed to sell per year when you sell on consignment through a dealershit, it's also a well known tax loophole but that's more of a Texas thing. The guy OP was dealing with pretty obviously never had the car titled in his name to avoid registration fees and taxes. OP could have known from a five minute phone call to any tag agency what penalties are owed and if any liens are held against the vehicle but I doubt he checked since he's obviously a kid without a strong father figure in his life.
That's definitely not what happened, you're pretty clueless and should stay in your sphere of influence as you're a dumb car salesman from a different part of the country talking completely out your ass.
Exactly, those are self serving reasons, not something you would ever do for a legit private sale transaction.
You run the car through a "dealer" to either benefit yourself, or try and hide shit. Or both. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy had the title the entire time, and just trying to stall long enough so that when the shit hits the fan, it's too late for OP to do anything
He's lying.
Oklahoma will give you a replicate title the day you walk in. It's not like California where you have to wait 2 weeks. It's probably not in his name.
t. Oklahomian.
Post address I'll get this sorted out for you OP.
For the record, in Vermont if it's 15 years old or older you only need a bill of sale to register something, no title. Our dmv just doesnt give a FUCK.
>tfw bought my klx from middle of nyc, no title from a man named hassenini and the ignition has been bypassed. VT plated it no questions asked.
>implying I don't deal with title work and registration all the time
>implying I haven't had to help friends out of messes exactly like this
People running ghost dealerships off of craigslist is super common everywhere bud. Some clown gets a dealers license so he can flip cars on the side without the dmv getting on his back, then just pretends they are his cars when people come to look at them.
If the car is titled to a dealership, the dude is flipping it
If what said is true and you can get a same day title if you go to the DMV, then the only reason you would stall on getting a title, other than being a worthless lazy shit is that you are trying to hide something
Really relevant to the discussion thanks faggot.
Post the vin
Do eeeet
I can vouch for him, he's a pretty cool guy Eh kills problems and doesn't afraid of anything.
Ghost dealerships? Too spooky, you're way overthinking it, he's exactly just being a lazy fuck because why shouldn't he be? He already has OP's money he can be as lazy as he wants.
It actually could be.
You used to be able to register things in VT even if you didnt live here.
Register it here with just a bill of sale, then go to your home state saying the vehicle has a vt reg, where they dont use a title, and you can apply for a new one.
One of the only ways to get a title for somethig that doesnt have one. I think youd have to get a po box here though.
Look it up in forums
Look up my asshole, everyone who knows anything already knows about Vermont, now you're just giving catstang tier clueless anons ideas on how to be shady car flippers.
>be dumb flat rater at Hudiburg
>shitty s13 comes in on a trade, tell mgmt you want to buy it before they send it to auction
>don't bother putting the title in your name because who cares save money, list the car on cl for a lot more than its worth because drift tax
>kansas user comes along all worked up from not getting his "dream" car the first time and buys the car from you without the title because he's an idiot
>flat rater now has your money and can take his sweet ass time getting you the title cause what you gun do bout it
If he takes any longer just threaten to call his parents.
>About halfway through the trip the guy says he can't find the title after he already told me he had it in hand (figures
i know hind sight is 20/20 but i would of turned right the fuck around. Or if i really wanted the car I would stopped at a gas station or something and chilled till he was able to send me a pic of the title.
I've walked away from amazing deals when the seller floundered on the title. They would try their best to reassure me that they're good for it but i always covered my ass and told them I would be more than happy to come back when he/she has the title. I never hear from them again.
If the bill of sale is dated correctly, has the VIN and description of vehicle on it correctly, that is enough information to provide in court. If the vehicle is stolen, then the seller is the only victim here. The seller will be forced to pay him back AND/OR face jail time.
The seller would be guilty of fraud if it's a stolen vehicle. Along with being guilty of theft lol.
Check if Oklahoma state allows you to see what back fees are on the vehicle online using the plate and Vin.
LPG is one of the few here who is actually knowledgeable and helps people. I trust him when he says that there's something fishy here.
Experience and intuition just lead me to believe that after 5 weeks, something more than laziness is going on here.
OP here again. Is there any way you'd be able to run the vin for me? I can send it to you through email.
go to the vin check thread and report back here with the results
Op here. I got the vin checked. I'll start posting pics of anything that's relevant if someone wants to give me some insight.
...
...
And here is the most recent chain of events.
Forgot pic
>7 owners
Shew buddy
Other than that, the DMV issued the newest title (meaning to a new owner) on 04/01/2015. Duplicate title was issued (meaning a new title to the same person) on 05/31/2016.
Would a new title being printed on 05/31 fit at all into the timeline of when he told you he got a new title?
Yupp. On the title it says duplicated on 5/31. He sent me a pic of the title 8 days later on 6/7 saying he just got it in and filled it out.
Positive is it doesn't look like the car has been wrecked out/salvage title/rebuilt. 7 Owners is a bit blargh-ish though
Like I said above, your next step would be to contact the DMV in the county where this guy had the car registered to make sure it doesn't have any crazy back fees/taxes sitting on it
It's an s13 haha. 7 owners on an almost 30 year old car isn't that bad, I've seen/have owned a lot worse.
Wouldn't it mean that if the last person who got it registered also duplicated the title, he would have been responsible for backfees or taxes? To my knowledge you're not even able to get the car registered until that's done and payed for
No, it could absolutely still have fees. The newest title was issued in 2015, and there is no registration renewal since then, meaning it very well could have outstanding reg/taxes that have come due and never been taken care of. Thats why the next call would be to the DMV
Now a regular ass person wouldn't be able to get a title on a car with outstanding fees, but a dealership can. We do this with cars we send to auction all the time, the DMV has a fancy name for it, but it basically means we can get the title for a car and sell it on, and the next owner will be responsible for settling the outstanding DMV fees. The catch is, you are SUPPOSED to notify/disclose the vehicle has outstanding fees, but a less than reputable seller could just keep his mouth shut
OH BOOOOOOY
DUPLICATE TITLE
LIEN STATUS
THERE IS NO TITLE
MONEY IS OWED TO THE GOVERNMENT OR A BANK
IN ORDER TO SECURE TITLE YOU MUST PAY THE REMAINING LOAN AMOUNT OR BACK TAXES
240SX
OH MY GOD
ITS A SCAM
SCAMMMMMMMMM
240SX THIS THING WILL STEAL YOUR SOUL CALL POLICE CALL LAYWER NOW
RUN
The lien is from 2001. It's been through quite a few owners from then on.
Alright. I'm gonna call them tomorrow. The last texts we exchanged were talking about the post office and how he was going to call them to figure out where the title is. It's been 2 days since then. I texted him this morning asking him if he's heard from them yet, no response. Texted him yet again saying that certified mail comes with a tracking number and why he wouldn't go off that, no response. What should I say now? Starting to get fucking pissed off. Should I just tell him I'm giving him one more chance before I'm going to sue? At this point it's my daily car, the 60 days have passed, and it's not legal to drive it. I will take a bus to oklahoma 10 times for court appearances if I have to.
Next move would be to call his ass and ask "Hey, do you have the USPS tracking number or not? It's been X weeks, either the post office lost it, or you never sent it, and I need to know which it is"
Also, download an app to let you record the conversation.
Depending on his answer I'd either get ready to call a lawyer, or schedule a road trip to his house
Sounds like a plan. Going to call him tomorrow as well then, going to find an app to give me a number with an oklahoma area code so I know he'll answer if i never get a text back.
Good luck, buddy.
It actually doesnt sound too bad... from 2015 to now whats the worst that could happen?
>Hey Veeky Forums, I may or may not have screwed myself over.
Oklahoma charges $158 filing fee for small claims court in this type of case.
okbar.org
oklahomacounty.org
Hearsay evidence is not allowed to be evidence in oklahoma small claims court. The judge is not allowed to provide attorney type services/advice to you, so depending on him to help you present your case properly or without making mistakes is not his responsibility. Thus, if you make a critical error that turns a winning case into a losing one, he is not obligated to help you or point it out. That is the purpose of having an attorney.
>Sorry to hijack thread but can someone explain what a title is?
It is a formal government issued certificate stating that vehicle is owned by you (and no one else). It is not meant to be a casual piece of paper that can be printed up anywhere.
Possession of the legal official title certificate means you have a legal claim. So if the seller tries a scam where he tells the state he lost the title and to make a new one, he then has 2 titles so he can sell the car twice (delayed delivery or STEAL the car back since he has duplicate keys). But because you have a legally printed title in hand, you can have the state give him a felony conviction (forging titles is a felony in my state).
Because holding a genuine gov't printed title is powerful in terms of penalties, some scammers try hard not to let you have a genuine one. With it in hand, you are convincing to the judge because now the scammer cannot easily say "I never sold him a car" since the judge now says "but he has the title".
Proper transfer of a Title helps keep both parties honest in auto transactions.
>The dude sounds a little off-kilt, but it is possible that he just fucked up sending it in the mail or something.
It's already taken a month and OP only keeps getting new excuses. And now he is to filter it thru a dealer now that the 30 day exclusion deadline has passed for contested titles. The seller is good in making it go over 30 days with no title delivered by certified mail.
If there is no certified mail tracking number from USPS, then the seller made a bold lie to OP in saying that the title was already sent by certified mail.
>Sorry to hijack thread but can someone explain what a title is?
As others have said, it is the certificate of ownership and cannot be easily made. It is a government printed certificate. What others didn't make clear to you is:
If you have loans made against the car as collateral, the bank or holder of the loan takes the title certificate from you. They file paperwork with the gov't and now they hold the title even though the person holds the car.
That person can then sell that car to you and say he will send the title to you later. Nope. The car is not yours and the lack of title from the seller was proof that he didn't have the right to sell the car (since it has liens or he is using it as collateral).
Now, the seller is trying to DOUBLE scam the buyer with a second scam a month later. By laundering it thru the dealer, he can fool OP into accepting to pay off all the liens on the scammer's record too. If he accepts that bill of sale, then he has agreed to assume the liens on the car in return for the title back.
Very good. So the seller not only got a bunch of money from OP, but also got OP to clean up his debts for him. Ironically, that improves the scammer's credit rating too. So that means OP did three good things for the scammer.
Now you know why in the USA you must insist on having a true genuine title. It signficantly reduces the chance of a surprise lien taking the car away from you.
This almost feels like one of those car sales stories that LPG posts from time to time.
I believe my dad used to register his trailers in Vermont because it cost way less. In Maryland it's apparently mad expensive. Doesn't make sense to me.
>2016
>Ignorant of cloning