Sequential manual gearbox in an affordable street car when?

Isn't the Clio RS an automatic with paddle shifters? My understanding is that a proper sequential has a third pedal.

Just buy a motorcycle kiddo

it's a dual clutch

Dual clutch is auto
Sequential is manual

2 pedals = auto
3 pedals = manual

All a DCT is is a computer-actuated manual.

The old BMW SMGs didn't have a clutch pedal.
3 pedals = manual
2 pedal = different things

manual means direct physical connection to the shifter mechanism in the gearbox

Manual is defined by a user operated clutch, stop trying to pretend random transmissions aren't automatic just because they're not a slushbox

No, manual is a trnamission architecture. Some are operator-actuated, but not all manual gearboxes have a "direct physical connection" to the forks. Shifter linkages exist in nearly everything but FR manuals.

I never argued that a DCT isn't an auto, just that it shared a very similar composition to a manual box. If anything, my comment was extraneous.

>Manual is defined by a user operated clutch,
Aren't preselector gearboxes considered manual?

>the only thing I understand about transmissions is the driver input
>there can only ever be two types of transmissions

>there are multiple types of transmissions, and they fall intotwo categories: manual and automatic
ftfy

Computer activated clutch, therefore, not a manual.

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it's either manual or it isn't. if it's not manual, it is by definition automatic.

>manual is a trnamission architecture
Nope.

Porsche uses 90% of the same transmission architecture for their manual and DCT gearboxes iirc. The DCT's aren't manual: they're considered automatics.

Manual means user-operated clutch, not user-operated gear selection.

yes, they all have a direct physical connection to the forks.
shift rods or cables are a direct physical connection

Neat, but how about you read? I didn't say that a DCT is a manual transmission. I said they share a very similar architecture

>tripfag thinks his uninformed opinions are actual facts
Why am I not surprised

Oh yeah, all of those planetary manuals out there are great.
I never argued that a DCT isn't an automatic box.

>Manual means user-operated clutch, not user-operated gear selection.
so if someone invented a trans with a clutch pedal and a shift button you'd consider it a manual?

A cable is the definition of an indirect connection. You aren't moving the forks. The shifter is moving a cable which is moving the forks. That's an indirect connection

User operate clutch, and user operated gear selection, so yes, manual. Clumsy as fuck, but manual.

How about a hydrak?

None of your convoluted scenarios are going to change the fact you drive an automatic

So you want to get transmission rebuilds every 10k miles? Because that's the service rate for sequentials.

?

pressing the button is not manual. there's an electrical connection. otherwise electric windows are manual because you manually press a button.

no, that's a physical connection, just like a clutch cable or hydraulic circuit are both physical connections. no electrics = physical

Same as a Saxomat: automatic.

Manual gearboxes are called manual because you manually operate the clutch and manually operate a gear selector. The connection between you and those is irrelevant: even Formula electrohydraulic gearboxes have a button-operated clutch and flappy pedal-operated gear selectors, so they're manuals.

Manual in the gearbox sense refers to manual input. Manual in windows refers to manual labor.

F1 transmissions are just another type of auto.

ITT: I manually put the shifter into D so I drive a manual

Formula 1 Electrohydraulic manual =/= Ferrari F1 gearboxes.

The first is a manual, the latter is an automatic.

With two clutches

>so they're manuals
Nope. They fall under the category of semi-automatic: You choose the gear you want with flappy paddles, a stick or any other kind of user input. The computer (for flappy paddles normally an electronic computer) decides upon when it is safe to engage the gears that you have chosen.
You choose gear, computer does shift, hence semi-automatic.

A manual gearbox has no computer and is operated by the driver. There's manual gearboxes without clutch, like certain sequential gearboxes or true dogboxes. You could combine a torque converter with a manual gearbox and skip the clutch as well.

just because a transmission uses clusters rather than planetary gears doesn't make it manual.
an operated mechanical connection for the clutch and gear selector does

I don't think is a question of price
Every bikes a a sequential manual
You just doesn't need it and it would made thing unpractical every times you stop at a redlight

>The computer (for flappy paddles normally an electronic computer) decides upon when it is safe to engage the gears that you have chosen.
No. In Formula 1 electrohydraulic gearboxes, it just rams it into gear. Then you rev it, let go of the clutch, and take off.

>A manual gearbox has gear selection operated by the driver.
ftfy.

> There's manual gearboxes without clutch, like certain sequential gearboxes or true dogboxes.
These still use clutches though, in order to get going. Same as Formula 1, you use a clutch to get going, and then you just ram it into the next gear.

>You could combine a torque converter with a manual gearbox and skip the clutch as well.
Wouldn't be a manual after that. No manually operated clutch = not a manual.

>mfw a fully faceplated tko is $3300

>how to skip a gear in a sequential
>hold the clutch in
>click lever more than once

>how to skip a gear in a manual, ie: 6->3
>move the lever more than normal
>hope you don't miss, hit the great wall of 1st, and take an extra second to get in gear

>they fall intotwo categories: manual and automatic

No, they don't, a sequential manual can be used just the same as a DCT in user operation, but they doesn't mean its an automatic.

Which is a shame as a 2zz swap is dead simple.

Nah still less practical dude
>Press clutch
>Choose gear
>Depress clutch
And that always the same procedure unlike a sequential manual
And stop with everythings is complicated meme it's retarded

>a sequential manual isn't an automatic
>a MANUAL isn't an automatic
Duh.

>electrohydraulic
Means there's an electronic part that decides when to ram in the gear. Delay between choice of gear and engagement is around 50ms due to this automatic "ramming" of the gear. Don't know which teams do what, but presumably they're all like this, which is semi-automatic. You choose, a computer (electronic and/or hydraulic) decides upon shift point.

>ftfy.
Fixed it wrong, mate. Semi-autos have gear selection operated by the driver and are not manual gearboxes.

>These still use clutches though.
Fair enough, my bad.

>Wouldn't be a manual after that.
If the transmission by design does not need a clutch due to having enough internal slip like a hydrodynamic connection to the wheels (some tractors and work equipment), you can have a manual gearbox without a clutch. This design doesn't make sense for cars, but it is none the less a manual gearbox.
Steam engines would work with a manual gearbox without clutch, those have torque even at standstill.

>Delay between choice of gear and engagement is around 50ms due to this automatic "ramming" of the gear.
Sure, but unlike a DCT, a Formula 1 style electrohydraulic manual has zero delay from gear to gear. There's a delay between user input and actual gear shift (something like 8ms, get your facts right), and then there is no point whatsoever where there is no power being transferred - unlike a DCT system where clutches need to slip.

>semi-autos have gear selection operated by the driver and are not manual gearboxes.
Alright then. Proper definition: manual gearboxes have a manually operated clutch, and manually operated gear selection. Missing either of these defines it as an automatic.

>you can have a manual gearbox without a clutch.
No manually operated clutch, not a manual.

>No manually operated clutch, not a manual.
So the forward-neutral-reverse selector/gearbox of an outboard motorboat engine without clutch is not manual? As stated before, such a design does not make sense for cars as it would inevitably stall the car, but it is actually common on older or smaller motorboats.

>So the forward-neutral-reverse selector/gearbox of an outboard motorboat engine without clutch is not manual?
Nope. A lot of mopeds, for example, have a centrifugal clutch which only moves the vehicle when you get on the throttle. Same goes for those boats: when you have near-zero throttle, there is no movement of the boats (or at least very, very little). Therefore, they'd be considered automatic gearboxes in automotive terms.

Why does the idea of there being more than two types of transmissions upset you so much? Do you realize if you called a DCT or sequential an automatic to anyone who knows anything about transmissions they would just think you are either confused or misinformed?

There are multiple types of transmissions. All of these can be divided into two categories: manual and automatic. See: >Do you realize if you called a DCT or sequential an automatic to anyone who knows anything about transmissions they would just think you are either confused or misinformed?
First off, sequential manuals aren't automatics. Second, as long as you get the category right, ''someone who knows anything about transmissions'' shouldn't care.
Third, you gotta hide your power level a bit.

>Nope.
Wrong. No automaton/computer used to shift.

>manual and automatic
Semi-Autos belong in the automatic category.

>No automaton/computer used to shift.
So there is manual gear selection, but there is no manual clutch. Therefore, not a manual.

>Semi-Autos belong in the automatic category.
Of course they do. Again, see .
All the semi-autos (DCT, single cluch automanual, Saxomat, etc.) are in the automatic category.

there's a difference between strict technical definition and common usage.
if anything isn't manual it's automatic, and that is what decides the categorisation.
however, in common usage automatic usually refers to a trans with planetary gearset with a torque converter.

...

Didn't mean to quote you in , my bad.

>however, in common usage automatic usually refers to a trans with planetary gearset with a torque converter.
This used to be true up to athe 1990's. However, more and more non-traditional automatics are gaining market share (e.g. CVT, DCT)

>repeatedly referencing a chart he made himself in MSpaint

This is going to be a huge leap, but try to pretend. Imagine you are a person who is actually concerned with these types of transmissions, maybe you drive cars with them, work on them, design them, anything like that. When would it be beneficial to anyone to refer to a DCT as an automatic or sequential box as a manual? The answer is never, you 100% of the time will refer to the transmission as what it actually is.

>Therefore, not a manual.
So in your opinion, what are they, both the gearbox connected to the centrifugal clutch as well as the gearbox without a clutch?
Especially the latter does not contain anything that could be labelled "automatic"

that's my point. there's cvt/dct "autos" and auto "autos", the latter with the traditional auto setup.
of course unless you have bad autism you don't use the second "auto" and you just call them cvt, dct and auto, but they're all "autos"

hth

>When would it be beneficial to anyone to refer to a DCT as an automatic or sequential box as a manual?
When you're talking to people that aren't on your knowledge level. When I'm talking to an actual engine designer, I'd be talking about static vs. dynamic compression ratio, head flow per valve lift, and detonation resistance. To my uncle, I'd be talking simply about horsepower: the end result.
That's what a transmission category is for most people: an end result. Explain the recent prevalency of CVT's if it weren't for normies not understanding that it's a flawed transmission type - they don't care, they want a cheap automatic.

When I'd be talking to an engineer, he'd most likely have two transmission options for any given vehicle (as most cars do): automatic and manual. It might be a very specific transmission type, but he'd know which one of the two I'd be talking about. Sure, on say a Lexus RX, I'd have to specify TC auto vs ECVT, but that's it.

>the gearbox connected to the centrifugal clutch
Automatic. No user operated clutch, no manual.
>gearbox without a clutch?
Automatic. No user operated clutch, no manual.

>Especially the latter does not contain anything that could be labelled "automatic"
Both automatically move forward once you apply throttle.

It's a physical connection, just not a direct physical connection.

yes you are right, so my first post using the word "direct" was poorly worded

>Both automatically move forward once you apply throttle.
So a bicycle is automatic as well? Or a propeller airplane? Or a steam engine?
I see where you're coming from, but that definition is madness.

>So a bicycle is automatic as well? Or a propeller airplane?
Yes. The definition isn't madness, it just shouldn't be applied to stuff that isn't automotive. When you stop applying an automotive definition to bicycles, trains, boats and airplanes, shit starts making sense.

>Or a steam engine?
Steam engine DCT when?

Gearboxes are universal devices though, and that's what the whole discussion about classification was about.

Who cares? Drive what you like. This with a 2zz swap will be my next car.