I'm currently in the midst of watching Claude Lanzmann's Shoah. The first-hand accounts of what happened at concentration camps in Poland are quite powerful.
Now, I definitely believe in the veracity of the official holocaust facts, but I've seen so much shit on the internet poking holes (supposedly) in the official story, that I find myself unable to feel the full experience of films like "Shoah" or visiting Anne Frank's House due to these residual doubts that rise in the back of my brain.
Obviously the rabid way in which Western culture defends the sacredness of the official story is suspect, but holocaust deniers can be even more biased and fucking stupid. I don't know who to believe.
Has anyone navigated the annals of Holocaust writings and found someone that has looked at these claims of deniers (gas not being used for extermination, changes to total number of deaths, etc) and one way or the other, set the record straight in his or her mind?
No, I'm not sure he would approve of the film's message
Ryan Martinez
There is a massive copypasta of about 5 images on this very subject, which goes in depth on all the more extreme revisionist arguments. I don't have it saved here but someone must have it
Lincoln Wright
I even believe that Holocaust happened I just fucking hate how many countries treat it like a sacred cow. You don't get arrested and jailed for saying Earth is flat even though it's outrageously idiotic but apparently when you question the Holocaust you're fucked.
Literally WHY are laws like that in place?
Brandon Mitchell
Jews got money. The armenians tried to do the same thing in France but failed because poor.
Carson Cruz
To be fair, I just wish that there'd be more movies on various historical tragedies and wars.
Jaxson Morales
Well most of what they say is true. But accounts of american jews should not be trusted less you end up with bullshit about muh human soap and lampshades.
Jordan Butler
>but apparently when you question the Holocaust you're fucked. or the communist atrocities also not simply "quesiton the Holocaust" as "publicly deny"
Michael Rogers
That's still not reason enough to arrest you.
Connor Moore
According to some German guy who posted a while ago, the illegality of holocaust denial is vastly overplayed to the point of memery here and elsewhere on the Internet. Apparently holocaust denial itself is perfectly fine, but 99% of the time it's followed by something like " The Holocaust never happened! But I wish it did! Heil Hitler! Race war now! Kill the sub humans! National Socialist revolution! " or something like that which IS illegal, but that bit gets glossed over by people with an agenda.
Owen Edwards
>I don't know who to believe. Well, that's fine. This is the right attitude for anyone studying history. If the question is important to you, just carry on reading and learning, but you will always have doubts, like any serious historian.
Grayson Cooper
>Serious historian >Having doubts about the holocaust Pick one.
It is seriously a major indication of a crippled critical thinking and scientific research ability to credit the denier's bait in even roughly the same tier as the mountains of solid evidence of the holocaust happening. Like motherfucking flat earth theory tier. Holy shit.
Jaxson Wilson
...
David Ward
>The first-hand accounts of what happened at concentration camps in Poland are quite powerful.
One of my most profound reading experiences was reading Primo Levi's 'Se questo è un uomo' or 'If This Is a Man'. The account of the year Levi spent in Auschwitz is chilling.
Christopher Price
This film is indeed very powerfull. Much more powerful than Schindler's List or The Pianist which are romanticized hollywood versions of the holocaust. This is the real deal. Without actors, without staging.
Nathan Sullivan
The holocaust is a genocide of the jews. There was an Armenian genocide with no specific name.
What one has more films, tv programs, school trips and rehashing?
Best thing is to treat it like any genocide be glad it's over and not still occurring.
Jacob Smith
What mountains of evidence? Nice ad hominems tho
Blake Turner
I was speaking about the general attitude an historian should have. If having doubts encourages you to study history, that's a good thing, and I suppose it will lead you to believe that denying the holocaust is not sensible. But you are also likely to discover that, no, the nazis did not mass-produce soap made of murdered jews (even though they apparently tried the idea). Thus, you learn.
Justin Nguyen
The thousands upon thousands of eye witness testimonies of prisoners and allied soldiers, confessions of perpetrators, thousand of pieces of surviving artefacts and standing structures ?
Jack Fisher
Right, there's plenty of evidence that a lot of Jews were forced together and died of starvation and disease. That's not up for debate.
The question is whether or not the German government sent them there with the intention of murdering them via rollercoasters, masturbation machines, suffocation chambers, gas chambers, or incineration. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread has proven evidence to support your claim that said Jews were sent to said camps by said German government with the intention of murdering said Jews via rollercoasters, masturbation machines, suffocation chambers, gas chambers, or incineration.
Joseph Phillips
Apart from the eye witness testimonies of prisoners who say they were being forced together for the purposes of extermination and the confessions of perpetrators who say the jews and other victims were being forced together for the purposes of extermination or were exterminated en mass on the spot.
These are the kind of people pushing for safe places
Levi Davis
>calling for genocide and overthrowing the elected government >saying mean things
Christian Wilson
Could you produce one of these perpetrators' testimony?
Brayden Bennett
>I want to live in an oppressive police state >government treats you as if you live in an oppressive police state >this is a violation of my rights
You just can't win with some people. I blame single mothers.
Mason Thompson
>"In that forest they were shot: men, women, and everyone at the same time. It was our battalion and a German detachment. You could not do it without the Germans. They had machine guns. We had just to shoot, go back to the cars and go away. You just pressed the trigger and shot. And that was it. It was not a big ceremony. Everything short and clear. Without any ceremonies—nothing. We would shoot them, give them up for lost, and that was it."
Leo Rogers
this entire thread shows why most historians are fucking losers
the best is to visit the supposed death camps yourself
if you actually there and have the testimonies in your hand it all seems so fucking ridicules
Aaron Mitchell
that's a nice fucking sauce you have there shitbad
I'm german and I have been indoctrinated since i was 11 in how bad the Germans are and what war crimes we have done. and both my parents were asked to come to the school once because I made and inappropriate joke during holocaust discussion "something about how bad polish food is and I'd look the same in the camp or something"
every single thing you say is WRONG even just mentioning the holocaust with a negative tone is dangerous
watch it and tell me where she says heil hitler and where she doesn't show respect for the dead
go fuck yourself basically hurensohn
Jaxson Garcia
I'm guessing your mother was called into school more on account of the fact that everyone suspected you of having a personality disorder, and being deliberately disruptive in class.
> I mean come on guys. I should be allowed to scream at the top of my lungs that no jews were killed during the second world war but that it would really really nice if they were since they're such awful murderous jews and I hate them and wish they'd die and if people get offended or shun me because of my personal opinions (and they are just personal opinions) then that is oppression and basically a second shoah I mean come on laughing at the death of jews in Germany of all places when there are still large amounts of white-supremacists what's the worst that could happen...
Logan Cruz
You are patently dabbling in argumentum absurdum when you squash every single piece of dialogue that could even be construed as Holocaust argument- rollercoasters et al- up with the established and verified literature. Quit with the intellectual dishonesty please.
Jason White
look at this projecting going on
like I said they asked MY PARENTS to come in not just my mother but since your probably a shitskin from a single mother household I understand your frustration
Jordan Clark
So, did you get criminally persecuted for making that joke?
No? Thought so.
Dylan Morales
> being this massively buttravaged over things that happened in school
Ryder Collins
It isn't overplayed in France.
We owe to some communist parliamentaries a law that prohibits that you even infringe the claim that 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust, and you'd be incarcerated for saying there was less than 6 million (which is objectively true).
Hell, even Jean-Marie Le Pen did nothing more than say that the Holocaust seated too much of an influence on history books about WW2, and he was fined and almost sent to jail for it.
did you watch this? she was sent to 10 months of prison, and with 87 that could mean till her death
Jayden Scott
Le Pen's statement has to be understood in context of the totality of his statements about the Holocaust, which forms the clear image of a Holocaust denier.
The purpose of Holocaust denial and all other forms of denialism is to sow doubt about the standard explanation. They can only sow doubt, because their methodological apparatus is too weak to actually proof something, and this, sadly, works because literally any explanation ever conceived has holes in it and humans are very good at recognizing patterns, even if those patterns don't exist.
Honestly, I'm getting pretty tired of the constant Holocaust denial threads. There's always one or two on the frontpage, which is a very sad state of affairs for a board that claims to be enthusiastic about history and humanities. People mistakenly seem to think that because they can read historical literature, they are some sort of authority on it.
Asher Cook
Yeah we're fucked if we even imply that things might not be as our schoolbooks tell us. But man, jews have a massive influence in France, they're everywhere in all position of power while representing 1% of the population. I know some nice jews, but still we're not part of the same world ( they marry only jews, israel pay holidays for them there to enhance their jewishness, they stick together for everything, they don't feel french, they hate muslims and blacks ( a girl told me her family discouraged her to have arab friends, fearing that they migh fall in love with each other ) while promoting multicultu... )
Benjamin Ward
I do not deny it, to be frank i haven't really put much thoughts on the matter, but i do think that we should be free of discussing the matter ( which can or cannot lead to complete denial ). Denying it shouldn't be rewarded with jailing, id will only hurt some feelings, that's not a valid reason. You can deny the Vendée genocide and the armenian one without any problems, why not the jewish ( and roma btw ) one ?
Asher Moore
Haverbeck-Wetzek isn't just "some random nice granny", but the leader of a revisionist far-right organization (VRBHV) that was not randomly founded on the day of the Reichskristallnacht. She also repeatedly ignored warnings, until she was eventually fined, upon which she continued and was only then sentenced on probation, which she ignored again. Only then was she sent to prison. Honestly, you have to literally deny the Holocaust hundreds or thousands of times and in prominent positions to get such a sentence.
>id will only hurt some feelings, People literally get murdered as a consequence of this accusation. Holocaust denial is one of the central justifications for far rightist extremism and terrorism.
>we should be free of discussing the matter ( which can or cannot lead to complete denial ). In Germany, you are free to discuss the matter, as long as you don't use it to incite violence. You are also free to research it, as long as you use the methodological standards present in the sciences. Academic research has special privileges into infringing rights on this and similar matters.
Jayden Taylor
You sound like an insufferable little shit blaming DA JUICE for your own flaws. "I'm not an asshole, I was persecuted for my beliefs!" So basically a typical antisemite.
Anthony Carter
I used to have doubts about certain aspects of the holocaust as well. And that's ok, because we grow up hearing things or learning things that we may find out later to be not completely true. But when you seek out any discussion on the subject, time after time you are only met with retards like these Posting incoherent videos, laughable source articles, and backwards logic
And then you will find posters like these With well thought-out, informed arguments on the issue
Make up your mind for yourself, but consider where your information comes from
Owen Campbell
270,000 Jews died in concentration camps from starvation and a typhus epidemic near the end of the war. Starvation and typhus were rampant in all of Central Europe at this time and many Germans died as well.
Sebastian Carter
People unironically believe the holocaust never happened and it's all a Jewish conspiracy. Jesus Veeky Forums you always make me remember all the retards in the world.
Owen Carter
There's credible evidence that suggests that systematic murder of Jews in gas chambers did not occur.
Jacob Thompson
> credible evidence Hahaha yes and Bush did 9/11, Illuminati rules the world and I'm just an ignorant sheep. I'm sure my grandmother who never saw her parents after they were departed lied about that to her children and grandchildren because muh jew money and the millions and millions of evidence are all propaganda. Are you seriously this deluded. You disgust me and you spit on the millions of people who were killed.
Luis James
nice fallacies, friend
Charles Smith
Good argument Himmler.
Hunter Cruz
better than using multiple fallacies to try and discredit someone's post, faggot
Henry Rogers
Oh shut up you moron. You're presenting no argument despite the immense amount of evidence presented even in this thread. Just ctrl+F "http" you retard.
Angel Hughes
>implying samefag
Jace Sanders
I apologize if you're not the same poster who was acting like a retard in presence of evidence. I just happened to find this thread on the front page after I browsed another board for a while, so I overreacted on seeing what I thought was stupidity.
Cooper Sanchez
Shut the fuck up already moron. >Credible evidence that suggests that systematic murder of Jews in gas chambers did not occur
Yeah and there's also lots of credible evidence proving that millions of Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust, either directly through methods of execution or exhaustion, or indirectly through starvation and disease that arose within the conditions of the ghettos.
Just stop posting you clown
Leo Davis
see
Ethan Wood
Oh I get it, you're not actually contributing anything to the discussion, you're just going around pointing out whatever "fallacies" you recognize in someone's argument
Kill yourself my man
Jason King
yes that is correct.
im not your man, buddy
Camden Hall
It's illegal to discuss in some countries.
Why?
Anything that is true doesn't fear scrutiny.
Anthony Peterson
?
Ryder Watson
>It's illegal to discuss in some countries. Is it? Please name them.
Noah Collins
Which countries is it illegal to discuss the holocaust in?
Michael Evans
every one in mainland Europe
Dominic Bennett
>he skipped the entire rest of the thread to post the stormfag "truth doesn't fear scrutiny" meme because he was triggered by the OP's post
Further demonstration that neo-Nazis are incapable of thinking for themselves or bothering to read anything longer than a sourceless jpg posted on /pol/.
Jordan Ross
And yet you're allowed to talk about it in America, where there are a lot of jews that are in the media.
"If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe"
