If Nazi Germany had played the role of liberator and given the Baltic and former eastern european states some degree of provisional autonomy during his drive to Moscow could Hitler have won?
How important to the war effort was partisan resistance in eastern Europe and how much did the red army gain in cohesion as a result of reports that Germany wanted to erase Russia from the map?
Would proclaiming a new Russian federation to replace Stalinist rule have helped him win the eastern theatre through mass defections or was Stalin's cult of personality too great? Lebensraum could always be taken care of later, right?
The problem wasn't autonomy. The problem was all the burned villages during operation barbarossa. Ukraine i.e. first received the german army with cheers. After they took Kiev and started to kill jews, people turned against them.
Joseph Wilson
Right, so don't do that and instead help them so they aid you against Stalin and also get defectors from stalin.
James Wood
If they treated Ukrainians the same way they treated Slovaks and Croats there would be no problem. It was that fucking retard Koch who was hated even by other nazis and who acted like Ukraine is his personal serf kingdom full of subhumans who fucked it up.
Matthew Foster
Didn't they pull the same shit in Belarus, occupied Rusiia, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia?
Jonathan Long
As far as I know the Baltic people preferred the nazis to the Soviets so much it wasn't even funny.
>Belarus
A very peculiar and sad case. A gigantic wave of partisan operations in the area made the nazis send in literal criminal garbage (Dirlewanger brigade) to pacify the locals and they went full Genghis Khan on the civilian population.
Juan Allen
What about occupied Russia?
Dylan Ward
They were pretty fine compared to Belarus actually.
Blake Roberts
>After they took Kiev and started to kill jews, people turned against them. >implying the Ukrainians didn't hated the Jews for historical famines
Xavier Baker
So How Much Did Their Asshattery Cost them in terms of the overall war effort? Did they get a lot of defectors until they realized the Nazis wanted them gone not free?
Brody Allen
>all the burned villages
This was done by bolshevist partisans.
>Stalin's Torch-men-Order finally confirmed by Russia itself
The so-called “torch-men order” is the command No. 0428, issued November 17th 1941 by Stalin. It declares that Russian partisans in German uniforms, particularly those of the Waffen-SS, were to destroy all settlements within a swathe of about 40- 60 km depth from the main battle lines and to ruthlessly kill the civilian population. With these tactics it was important to leave a few survivors, which would report the supposed German terror attacks. This method of warfare was also confirmed by German soldiers, who captured many Russian partisans wearing German uniforms.
Stalin, in a Radio announcement from 3rd June 1941, had called on all peoples of the Soviet Union to wage a merciless partisan war against Germany. Almost daily, reports were being issued by the media that the German forces advanced with the declared politics and aim of a “scorched earth” approach, which devastated the vast Russian lands in the most horrific way. Apart from the logical fact that no invader destroys the infrastructure necessary for his advancement in an occupied territory.
Hudson Hernandez
Bolsheboos BTFO again:
>The Stawka headquarters of the highest commands orders: `All settlements, in which German troops are found, up to a depth of 40- 60km from the main lines of battle, are to be destroyed and set on fire, also 20-30km from the roads. For the destruction of the settled areas in the required radius, the air force will be made available, also artillery and rocket-launchers will be used extensively, as well as intelligence units, skiers and Partisan divisions, who are equipped with bottles with flammable liquid. These hunting expeditions in their activities of destruction are to be dressed to the greatest extent in German soldier's uniforms and uniforms of the Waffen-SS looted from the German army.´ `This will ignite the hatred toward all fascist occupiers and makes the conscription of partisans from the outlaying areas of fascist territories easier. It is important to have survivors who will tell about `German atrocities´. For this purpose every regiment is to form hunter-units of about 20- 30 men strong with the task to detonate and incinerate the villages. We have to select brave fighters for this action of destruction of settled areas. These men will be especially recommended to receive bravery awards, when working in German uniforms behind enemy lines, destroying those settlement outposts. Among the population we have to spread the rumour that the Germans are burning the villages in order to punish the Partisans.
Dylan Smith
A German policy of planned extermination of Eastern people groups is merely a legend. The so-called 'General Plan East' penned by the Baltic German physician Dr. Hans Ehlich was the product of a single individual and was never taken seriously within the German leadership. Only after the war, the polish propaganda used atrocity propaganda stories (to "justify" stealing german land and slaughtering + expelling the german natives) about this alleged "plan" and added numerous counterfeiting of the document to give the semblance of justification of the expulsion of Germans from their homes in Eastern Germany and the theft of German assets. The voluntary or forced recruitment of Eastern workers in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union was the result of the tremendous needs of German defense industry workers, which was considerably enhanced by the allied terrorist bombing campaign against German civilians. The war from 1943 onwards would no longer be managed without the Eastern workers. The recruitment drive for these workers had nothing to do with an "extermination policy", because it urgently needed these people for labour critical to the german war effort. German economic aid for the occupied eastern territories amounted to over 3 billion reichsmarks in the years 1941 to 1943, accounted for 1% of the German GDP in those years.
Benjamin Adams
It is assumed that the German Empire in the occupied Eastern Territories economically invested much more into it as it has brought out in terms of resources and labour. In the short time available, the enormous economic problems hardly were manageable. As the situation began to improve in 1943, the Wehrmacht because of the military situation had to leave these territories. Without these constructive occupation policy approaches, it would be indeed not even conceivable that around one million Ukrainians, Russians, Cossacks, Latvians, Estonians and Caucasians on the German side had voluntarily struggled. On 5 May 1943, already 90 Russian battalions, about 140 units in company strength, 90 field battalions of the Eastern Legion, a number hard to overlooked small units, and about 400,000 Hilfswillige German units, positions were of the German Wehrmacht on sides to some larger associations under German command (1st Cossack Division, several independent Cossack regiments, the Kalmyk cavalry corps).The war in the East was also a civil war against the Bolshevist ideology. This unusual degree of collaboration and cooperation sustainable contradicts the thesis, the German occupation policy in the Soviet Union have consisted only of murder and manslaughter. Indeed, there was no occupation policy, rather quite different groups of opinion on the question of the treatment of the East were present among German leaders. The line of cooperation with the Eastern peoples, which was favoured by the Wehrmacht and later Waffen-SS, prevailed in the course of the war more and more.
Nathaniel Powell
Each day I find new reasons to hate the communists, what an abominable fucking group, Jesus Christ.
Connor Miller
Sources?
Jeremiah Morgan
Can you provide a source? Couldn't find anything solid on the matter.
Wyatt Phillips
>google stalin's torch men order >first result is stormfront
really makes you think
Justin Sanders
Source?
Jonathan Scott
nah only if england had taken the place of japan in the axis could their have been any significant divergence from the course of history we have but then you've still got a non homogenised (not english) speaking mainland europe so no threads of commoninity.
iberia was there as a prize should german somehow have maintained the mainland (no america) to then colonise the wolrd in hegemony,
if england aligned or vice versa soviet would likewise and then you had an open ended scenario to do whatever rape of the rest of the world island you wanted. america would sit on its heels with japan as a buffer state in the pacific
Easton Martinez
I'm not so sure. During barbarossa when Stalin was deciding whether or not to surrender Moscow and head east he seemed to genuinely fear a coup attempt and assassination from within. A large German backed Russian army and stories of German leniency might have driven the few daring officers left to make a play for Stalin's head.
Christopher Sullivan
As usual for conspiracy theorists, talks a big game but can't prove shit.
Aiden Butler
At least in the Baltics the Nazis were seen as liberators from the Soviets
Blake Martin
Mine was some revisionist forum.
So tl;dr: while the war raged on, the Soviets operated units (which must have numbered in the thousands, considering the lenght of the front) dressed as Germans that would go around "within a swathe of about 40- 60 km depth from the main battle lines" (i.e not even that deep in the occupied territories), killing people and burning villages, and thus giving the dindu nuffin good boy Germans a bad name?
Why is it that revisionists are (sometimes justifiably) super critical about the viability of the Holocaust, but apparently this kind of bullshit is totally beliavable to them?
Tyler Murphy
>anglos >making a difference on the outcome of WW2 I keked, you did next to nothing, the only reason you survived is because you had a sea and because you called big brother America in.
Lincoln Sullivan
They were seen as liberators in a lot of places...then the SS got there.
Jeremiah Young
Which is funny considering that it was them that handed Baltic states to Soviets.
Josiah Morales
He's referring to Stavka order No. 0428, which says that a scorched earth policy should be applied in (soon to be) occupied territories in order to take away any potential shelter from the Germans. However, it doesn't say anything about ordering Soviets to dress up in German uniform to do this; the archives have been opened and the original order No. 0428 doesn't say such a thing. So, the scorched earth part is true while the allegation that partisans dressed up in German uniform en masse is likely an invention by revisionists;
While I agree that "lebensraum" is a fucking meme, the Nazis definitely weren't fond of slavs
Adrian Mitchell
Of course neither Nazis or Communists will ever talk about that loudly.
Jack Edwards
Does anyone know the name of that nazi art that gets posted frequently? The man looks like a German Ivan Drago
Adrian Williams
You mean this guy?
Zachary Morgan
>It is assumed that the German Empire in the occupied Eastern Territories economically invested much more into it as it has brought out in terms of resources and labour. ahahahahaha no The Germans exploited every occupied country economically.
Levi Nguyen
>wall of text with no source at all >in any form credible
Jordan Martinez
No it's just an incredibly handsome man in black and white with a raised eyebrow
Sebastian Sanders
Operation Barbarossa was intended and planned to be a "Vernichtungskrieg" (war of elimination).
The Red Army dressed as Wehrmacht and SS and the Wehrmacht and SS dressed as Red Army.
British SAS used Wehrmacht uniforms all the time in their special ops.
In the grown up world where the adults live:
ALL MILITARIES AND INTELLIGENCE SERVICES USE EACH OTHERS UNIFORMS TO PERFORM ACTS OF TRICKERY AND DECEIT
Leo Phillips
There were actually attacks on villagers by partisans wearing German uniforms: A report written by the Heeresfeldpolizeichef says that "Repeatedly partisans, who wore German uniforms or uniforms of Axis countries, among them officer's uniforms with EK I and EK II, raided whole villages, plundered them and murdered village elders, kolkhoz directors and other pro-German persons". Said report also claims that a memorandum of the leadership of the partisan movement that explicetly recommends wearing German uniforms as camouflage.
(In German: „Mehrmals überfielen Partisanen, die deutsche Uniformen bezw. Uniformen der verbündeten Truppen trugen, darunter auch Offiziersuniformen mit E. K. I und II, ganze Dörfer, plünderten sie aus und ermordeten Dorfälteste, Kolchosleiter und andere deutschfreundliche Personen.")
>ALL MILITARIES AND INTELLIGENCE SERVICES USE EACH OTHERS UNIFORMS TO PERFORM ACTS OF TRICKERY AND DECEIT
That's true but they generally didn't attack their own people while wearing enemy uniforms (which Soviet partisans seem to have done on several occasions). That's the controversial detail here.
