Black Irish

that's cray

there are ancient Irish family names like "Finn" that mean "fair-haired" that predate any invasions and I'm pretty sure most of the gods of the Tuatha de Danann are described as having red and golden locks, not to mention various heroes

>OG Mediterranean Celts
This meme needs to die, the original Celts were from modern day Switzerland and Germany, the British Celts came from france and Celts appeared in Iberia very late in history, it wasn't even fully celticized by the time the Romans conquered it.

>american in berlin

>
also, according to Irish tradition, the ancestors of the modern Irish people were a seafaring Mediterranean race (tribe of Dan?) and stopped over in the Iberia peninsula before reaching Eire, implying the Black Irish were the original Irish
Reminder that those same stories say that they also originated in the Ukraine, went to Egypt, went BACK to the Ukraine, then went to the Caspian Sea, and then sailed directly from the Caspian Sea to Spain.

Anthropology major + European Prehistory major:

The Black Irish are descendants of Caucasian Cro-Magnon type populations that sailed from Scandinavia to Ireland in ancient history. This population has been tied to the 'Paleo-atlantid' sub-racial type. From a purely metric standpoint, they most closely resemble other un-reduced, heavier-built European peoples of predominately Cro-Magnon ancestry. The relatively darker pigmentation is, despite popular belief, not due to any kind of 'race mixing' as many like to claim without any actual evidence aside from the classic 'just look at them!'. It is generally held that the darker pigmentation are leftover archaic traits from when these Caucasian Cro-magnons first migrated to Europe from the Middle East thousands of years ago. In many other places, lighter features became predominant, but this did not occur to the same degree in this Western Scandinavian population, sometimes credited to their evolution west-most of the Baltic.

>iirc there's a supposed connection between "Hibernia" and "Iberia", also "Míl Espáine" and "Spain"
Maybe because "Míl Espáine" means "Soldier of Hispania"

Seriously?
You know absolutely nothing about genetics everything you're babbling is outdated pseudoscience that has only historical interest.
I recommend reading everything published about European genetic origins by the Reich lab of Harvard.

Irish are a mixture of steppic Indo-European (Yamna culture) and Anatolian Neolithic farmers with a dash of late Cro-Magnon who themselves were only in part descended from the old Cro-Magnons of the Aurignacian.
As for who the Irish got their darkness from, all of them.
Selection made the Corded Ware culture from which Nordic peoples descend from more depigmented. Original Corded Ware wasn't very Nordic in terms of pigmentation nor were the Yamna from whom Corded Ware descended from. Irish are Bell Beaker descendants who were another offshoot of the Yamna.

forgot to add the "obviously" at the end, mb

How come people who make up all these retarded invasion theories never have DNA evidence?

genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome.html

>“Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe”

The Iberian crap is 19th century garbage that lives on in Veeky Forums memes.

Does no one in this fucking thread know that Ireland has seen waves of invaders over the centuries that have assimilated into the population? Normans, Danes, the fucking English, etc.

Other way around. Irish originally were a bunch of Ibero-Celtic niggers and blonde Irishmen are Germanic rape babies.

You know a board sucks when even /int/ has a higher level of knowledge about a subject

Ireland is genetically Celtic but there is no evidence of invasion at all. It seems as though they filtered in over time, genetically and culturally replacing the pre-Celtic Irish. There are reports of the pre-Celtic language survivng in some parts of the country until the 1100s, but I haven't looked into it and I'd be sceptical.

>pre-Celtic Irish removed
>Celts settle, become Irish
>Norse settle, become Irish
>Normans settle, become Irish

A law was enacted in the 1400s that forbade English settlers from marrying Irish women and speaking the Irish language, but until the plantations, it didn't really work.

Ireland was invaded by Bell Beakers in the 3rd millenium BC and they were the primary ancestors of the modern Irish. Bell Beakers language can't be known but they were genetically related to Indo-Europeans so it would make sense if there was an IE speaking population in Ireland prior to Celtification.
Celtic languages are too similar for Bell Beakers to have been the Celts.

There's evidence of a lost Indo-European branch in Northwest Europe, with lots of geminated consonants and initial /p/ which is rare in both Celtic and Germanic. That could have been the language of the Bell Beakers. The Irish language could have been brought to Ireland as late as the Common Era.

Bell beakers werent an ethnicity you cuck, PIE bell beakers were, there were also Sardinian Bell beakers but those fuckers are only 7% pie

>normans settle
>become irish
Only in The Pale
Irish are Celtic-Gaels
The Spanish had very little impact on the island's genetics, limited to a few towns on the west coast
Everything you said is wrong

>The Spanish had very little impact on the island's genetics, limited to a few towns on the west coast
Proofs?

People move out and migrate over time. I guarantee every Irish got a little bit of Sven and Rollo in them.

The majority of irish are Iberian like Colin but usually have lighter skin, but the same dark hair. The blondes and redheads were a second wave from southern Russia. Viking and Norman influence genetically is minor.

The armada had very little impact. But the majority of the Irish themselves are basically prehistoric Spanish and Portuguese people.

Pic
Most irish are celtic-gaels, around Dublin and Waterford is where most of the Norman blood resides
>prehistoric Spanish
There's certainly evidence that they migrsted across from iberia yes, but to call them "Spanish" is misleading

>There's certainly evidence that they migrsted across from iberia
Such as?

It's just variation in Ireland's genetic population.

"Black Irish" and fair haired Irish people are genetically identical.

Kek, the we wuz goes so deep
What's hilarious is that during the time of the British Empire, the Irish were infamous for their cruelty towards blacks.

You're quite demanding today

This is an online meme based on 19th century theories about an ultimately African origin for the Irish that would justify British rule. There is no factual basis for it. Yes, some of their ancestors may have lived in Iberia but others lived in Romania, Hungary, Switzerland, Germany, Ukraine, Russia etc.

>DNA testing through the male Y
That's outdated, Irish R1b doesn't come from Basques.

Here then
/thread

Nor are Irish genetically close to Basques in the other chromosomes. An Irishman is more similar to a Lithuanian than to Basques by a wide margin, despite sharing very few paternal haplogroups with them. Autosomal DNA doesn't map to Y-DNA at all.

people deny the Spanish theory but there are bag pipe playing Celts in northern Spain today. It's not they're Spanish rape babies it's that they're the same ancient populations that diverged.

Celts were more from Austria, and the Pannonian Plain. Some could be found in Swiss valleys and Bavarian forests and hills and such, but the 'heartland' before widespread emigration was in Austrian foothills.

Greeks invented bagpipes and they were spread by the Roman Empire.

did they invent river dancing?
youtube.com/watch?v=OLzlD6PRgR8

>The armada had very little impact.
It had no impact whatsoever. There were 6

count em

6 shipwrecked Spanish sailors in Ireland. They didn't stay there either, a local earl helped them return to Spain.

It would be interesting to know what these people called themselves, and if their language did indeed survive.

Norman lords held lands outside the Pale. They became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" as the controversial quote goes. Whether or not the quote is correct, I don't know, but a lot of Norman lords were assimilated.

Bagpipes are also traditionally played in Calabria which is the southernmost tip of the Italian peninsula; please tell me the Celtic influence there??

that population was totally swallowed up genetically ages ago

I still find it strange that pagan Irish kings would show dominance over their subjects by making them suck their nipples. Saint Patrick apparently tried in vain to stop the "pagan practice" as he called it. Even his monks were apparently doing it.

>The evidence for pre-Roman era bagpipes is still uncertain but several textual and visual clues have been suggested. The Oxford History of Music says that a sculpture of bagpipes has been found on a Hittite slab at Euyuk in the Middle East, dated to 1000 BC. Several authors identify the Ancient Greek askaulos (ἀσkός askos – wine-skin, αὐλός aulos – flute) with the bagpipe.[3] In the 2nd century AD, Suetonius described the Roman emperor Nero as a player of the tibia utricularis.[4] Dio Chrysostom wrote in the 1st century of a contemporary sovereign (possibly Nero) who could play a pipe (tibia, Roman reedpipes similar to Greek and Etruscan instruments) with his mouth as well as by tucking a bladder beneath his armpit.[5] It has been suggested that the bagpipes were first brought to the British Isles during the period of Roman rule.[3]

Why didn't the king make people suck his cock. May as well right?

Celtic men apparently had beautiful women but preferred male lovers.

"Diodorus went further, stating that the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused."

A lot of stuff about early Irish practices is hokum. People used to think that they fucked horses, until it turned out it was a translation error and they actually just ate a stew made form horse meat.

youtube.com/watch?v=qrzJcbKXmhc
yes

The level of stupidity in this thread is amazing.

Irish natives had black and ginger hair m8

That is attested though. My archaeology lecturer went through it and outlined the National Museum's "Kingship and Sacrifice" theory which is based upon it. Bog bodies have been found with the nipples removed, which is said to point towards human sacrifice. A king was believed to be married to the land, so when a harvest failed, he was overthrown, sacrificed, and thrown into a bog as an offering. The nipples were cut off to symbolize their loss of power. Without nipples, they could never become king.

according to classical sources they had all the hair colors they have today

Ginger hair is spread all over Eurasia. There are and have been ginger Afghans and Mongols.

Some Irish people have black hair. I don't understand why people act like this needs some weird explanation about Cro-Magnons or Spanish sailors, as if every Irish person is supposed to look like CopperCab and anyone different is some kind of freak. This whole 'black Irish' thing seems to have entirely been invented by non-Irish who couldn't comprehend that any Irish person might not look like the stereotypical image they had in their heads.

And next you're gonna convince us Welsh and Scots with curly hair are not actually Spanish from the Great Armada of 1588...

I mean that also applies to most areas of Europe, especially the British Isles.

Ireland hasn't been occupied.

They are Celt-Iberians. And it has been genetically shown iirc.

Most Irish/Celtic peoples have dark hair but somewhat fair skin and blue/green eyes. They're an older branch of the Indo-European people who later became Slavo-Baltic and Germanic peoples. Blonde hair and fair skin are pretty recent genetic mutations.

According to the Irish traditions the Fîr-Bolg were the first conquerors of Ireland. They were Belgae. Actually in the Belgian Ardennes, where Franks did not settle much, we have our own version of the "Black Irish", people with the same characteristics. Direct descendants of the Belgae tribes there, so Celts.

True, also you hear a lot of revisionism today downplaying or denying the rampant human sacrificing of the Celts.

You are correct in that Ireland has pretty much always been a very diverse place. Nordids, Mediterraneans, and older Paleolithic survivals have all been present there historically.

But I think you are kind of underestimating the impact of Cro-Magnons - heavier, broader faced individuals (easily distinguishable from other Mediterranean type farmers and Indo-Europeans) have always made up a very large part of Ireland.

I'm sure that the Indo-European Nordid cultures weren't always stereotypically light, as you said, which would indeed account for a lot of the pigmentation dynamics seen in Ireland today.

But completely dismissing racial types like 'paleo-atlantid' as 'pseudoscience' just because they were first described decades ago is a bit puzzling. That physical type, while now usually only found mixed in with other ones, has existed in a pure form and is clearly one of pretty pure Cro-Magnon origin.

irish like most western europeans are a combination of the hunter gatherers and neolithic farmers along with late neolithic/early bronze age steppe ancestry. depigmentation was gradual and already in motion during the early neolithic.

It hasn't.

well, according to tradition they were descended from one of the first three conqueror groups of Ireland, the people of Nemed, the Nemedians or whatever, they and the other two got mostly wiped out mysteriously and their descendants fled to Greece, were enslaved, then returned to Ireland

then the Tuatha De Danann, descendants that fled to the North, showed up with their superior fairy magic and became the leading race

apparently my father's family is directly descended from the most powerful of the wizard-druids of the Fîr-Bolg, who may have also been the fairy-folk Fomorians aka the bad guys of the old Irish religion

I definitely think they were Belgae, which is funny because one of the German families on my mom's sides originates in Belgium, though they were Walloons and idk how that relates to the ancient Belgae