Why is a flat-six better than an inline six?

I was referencing the packaging to cars of similar size. Of course you can make it work with radical sizing.

I drove a porsche the other day and it sounded amazing desu

It's twice as short but also twice as wide. You see what's going on here? Different applications will have different preferences.

Width isn't the problem in vehicle dynamics, length is.

>what is polar moment of inertia

accessories take up room, as does suspension
plenty of space around an i6

Polar moment of inertia is, again, determined more by the length of an engine, than it by the width. It's like trying to swing a wide 5KG kettlebell close to you instead of swinging a narrow 5KG one far away - the latter is going to take more effort. More effort in this analogy means more energy stored, and thus a tendency to keep going (Newton's 1st law).

Accessories are mounted at the front, so that's a moot point. In the truely patrician setup (mid engined), the engine is far enough beihind the axle line to get creative with any kind of suspension.

There's so much space around an I6, you might as well add a bank and call it a V12. That's a setup I can get behind.

Amazing if you're used to hearing 1.2l diesels or minivans. They sound like a V6 truck with a leaky exhaust.

I thought we were talking front mounted, where it makes the least sense to use a flat engine
a flat mid engine car is far better, especially because of space restrictions
but some accessories need to be mounted with the engine, ie. all the belt driven stuff

the best engine design IMHO is the flat 12 mid mounted

I'm sorry what?
youtube.com/watch?v=mZISXNoUsVE
youtube.com/watch?v=k0-64GMUFu0
sounds pretty damn good to me.

I remember hearing MR F12s tend to be not so great dynamically because transmission packaging becomes a bitch and then forces the engine position up high.

it would be limited to a long wheelbase 2 seater, basically race config only

Ugh no, just no. It's just a generic raspy buzzing noise. Even G35's and G37's sound better. You've probably never heard a real V8 or V12 before so of course they're going to sound good.

Front mid-engine still exists m8, and I was talking front mounted. In a front-mid engined flat 6 (so engine completely behind the front axle), you'll have plenty of room to put accessories in line with the pulleys.

Flat 12's (and V12's for that matter) make the chassis a tad long imo. Twinturbo flat 8 is truly masterrace - although I understand the love.

No, that was just the case with the Testarossa and Ferrari being a bunch of Wankers (capital W). They wanted a shorter chassis, so they did the stupid thing and put the engine on top on the transmission. That way, you put the engine up high, and a 12 cyl isn't exactly light. When you're sane, you put it entirely in front of the transaxle, like Porsche did with the 917 (pic related.

Testarossa was a GT 2 seater anyways, it could've dealt with the chassis length.

>You've probably never heard a real V8 or V12 before so of course they're going to sound good.
I never thought I'd meet someone so pretentious in my life.
and whats a "real" v8/v12, are you talking about, American muscle?
v12s also sound like they're droning on when they're being pushed.
youtube.com/watch?v=8Om0pEmLtUM
Come to California or Seattle, you'll here both of these engine's all the fucking time, they're nothing special.

dude that is insane...

I5 nigguh

youtube.com/watch?v=qq0OQBdIhsc

>whats a "real" v8/v12, are you talking about, American muscle?

A big block with a big ass cam or a race prepped Ferrari V12. No bitch ass Mercedes V12.

youtube.com/watch?v=gX0oX4zK53c

vintage kek

>not liking the GTR AMG
youtube.com/watch?v=hPkXPHGdOFI

Naw. Sounds like a neutered V8. The AMG V12's in the Zonda's tho...

well technically i am used to hearing honda 4 bangers (^:

>V12 LS
is there a V4 LS somewhere left over?

Your body is not ready for that glory.

God damn that sounds like pure sex.

youtube.com/watch?v=fZMPDCNyQxE
youtube.com/watch?v=Odv_MiNDfEY

Designed in 1947 and raced until 1954–55, it produced 600 bhp (450 kW) at 12,000 rpm (managed 14k RPM)
Just 1.5 liter (90.8 cu in)

Nah. It's a wierd construction, they cut up two ls1 blocks, one 2.5/5 cylinders and the other 3.5/7 cylinders and welded (yes, welded) them together. It's got the same displacement per cylinder as the ls1 so it comes to 8.55 litres.

I don't understand why they didn't weld the two blocks together between the cylinders, because you'd assume a weld inside a cylinder wall would be weaker than inside the actual block but I'm not a professional engine builder.

Some mob in Australia built it.

>is there a V4 LS somewhere left over?
Yup, pic related.

Cilinder walls can actually be fix pretty easily nowadays, with inserted sleeves. Hell, on aluminium blocks, you need the iron sleeve. What they probably did was (not going to look it up) pull the sleeves from two blocks, weld them together like you described, and them put 12 sleeves in. Pretty easy if you ask me.

Ask any cylinder head specialist what they think of flat engines ...

Enjoy your premature wear on the lower edge of the piston faggots.

i6 = goat

>Except it really is better.

Except it's not, all engine configurations are used for different things because they're better in different applications. Saying one is objectively better for everything is retarded, just like you.

i6 is objectively the best

If that's true that why do most sports cars use V8?

engineers are actually stupid lol

Mate, are you serious? Even the flat 6 in my outback sounds glorious above 4000rpm.

Also, heard of Porsche?

Consider the following:
>V6 engines are shit
>flat engines are 180 degree V engines
>flat 6 engines are V6 engines
>flat 6 engines are shit

I love min, especially when paires with a 5spd. Only down side, trying to change the rear spark plugs

then why are there no naturally aspirated 4 liter ones making 500 hp?

Rumble, only answer

5 speed? what one

>tfw no flat six with exhaust ports going upwards to lower center of gravity

>Also, heard of Porsche?

Yeah, They're the guys that charge you $200k for the engine note of a minivan or Mohammed in his exhaust deleted G37, right? I don't care how well they handle, paying that much for an engine that sounds that bad is pointless.

>people seriously think flat 6 doesnt sound god tier
lmao what, literally nothing sounds better than a decelerating aircooled 911

youtube.com/watch?v=MdPTcl0FkFw

You need to get out more... That sounds like a straight piped minivan.

>butthurt inline 6 poster

There is literally nothing inline 6 does that V6 doesn't. There is literally nothing V6 does that F6 doesn't (except MAYBE being slightly more compact).

I believe they cut through the cylinder walls so they could combine the two blocks without fucking the cooling jackets. Since then they've started casting their own alloy blocks, Pic related may give some insight on the prototype SEMA block.

Their website: v12ls.com/

>That sounds like a straight piped minivan
yeah nah,

Seems like welding two 4.3's together would of been easier.

...Fits transversely?

s80 had a straight 6
twin turbo like a supra, sounded the same too with a good exhaust on it

Dare you to compare the two in a blind test.

youtube.com/watch?v=vk_z5fT3b10

youtube.com/watch?v=llgzJF_HC1s

They even sound worse than these niggermobiles.

youtube.com/watch?v=MkudCfDH2bA

>ywn get this

Yes, it does. And yet V6 and Flat 6 can get into a similar position.

Even forgetting about center of mass and position, Inline 6 are outdated as fuck and there's no reason to have them.

>muh harmonic balancers
buzzword. there is little to no difference on the harmonic balancers weight between inline 6 to V6 or flat 6

>muh 2JZ/RB26
V6 engines of similar displacement get the same power. The NSX got similar power with a N/A V6.

>muh performance
V6 and Flat 6 shorter design will allow engines to have shorter camshafts and crankshafts, allowing them to rev higher with no torque loss
Inline 6 BTFO just like pushrods.

Thank god. Why is it so fucking tall?

>2 banks
>2 heads
>2 of at least one manifold
>4 camshafts (i hope)
>not inherently balanced, needs a balance shaft
>usually made from the same block as a v8 to save production costs, meaning more weight and unnatural bank angle that makes already-bad balance even worse
v6 combines the worst aspects of the worst engines, and for absolutely no advantage over inline or flat 6. The only reason it's so common is because it can be cheaply made from blocks also used for v8s and dealers make a fortune maintaining the unreliable heaps of trash.
This is a thread for discussing the only two good six-cylinder engine configurations. Go somewhere else to post about the shittiest piston engine configuration ever conceived.

a 911 and straight piped minivan sound nothing in common.. i watched your videos blind it wouldnt have made a difference anyway, my opinions arent clouded by contrarianism

>huur duur 911 sounds bad beause expensive

I guess hearing mopeds, twingos and the bus all day makes Porsche's sound good.

kek id rather listen to a 2 stroke moped all day than listen to a shitty crossplane pushrod v8s for half a minute

banks
ok
heads
Smaller heads. Little to no weight gain
of at least one manifold
so?
camshafts
shorter camshafts which are lighter and allow for higher RPM, what about them?
>>not balanced
Fuck off, shill. "not balanced" has been a word that everyone used to describe anything but inline 6 and V8 engines even tho different configurations has existed forever. Inline 4 worked just fine although "they are not balanced"
>>usually made from the same block as a v8 to save production costs
ok? so?
>>meaning more weight
How the fuck so? with that logic i could say that inline 6s are cut blocks from a V12 and claim that because of that they are so heavy
>>and unnatural bank angle
w0t?
>>v6 combines the worst aspects of the worst engines, and for absolutely no advantage over inline or flat 6.
Sure! That's why literally every 6 cyl manufacturer other than BMW has changed to V or Flat configurations! Because its worse in every way!

>>The only reason it's so common is because it can be cheaply made from blocks also used for v8s
You are either implying that every company that makes a V6 block starts with a V8 block that they never use just so that they can cut 2 cyls out, which is retarded, or you are implying that every V6 block comes from the same place

>>dealers make a fortune maintaining the unreliable heaps of trash
That's why your mother gave birth to you, right?

>>Go somewhere else to post about the shittiest piston engine configuration ever conceived.
I can feel your autism from afar.

>so?
more complex piping to reach 2 banks
no place for a turbo
>lighter and allow for higher rpm
>making them longer reduces peak rev
structural ability to handle revs doesn't change when the shaft is longer, holy shit.
>"not balanced" has been a word that everyone used to describe anything but inline 6 and V8 engines
that's because those are the only 2 common engine configurations that are inherently balanced, you tremendous idiot.
>Inline 4 worked just fine although "they are not balanced"
"worked just fine" doesn't mean it's good. The imbalance in I4 is minor because it's only of the second order and I4s are made small enough for it to not be noticeable. The reason there are no big I4s is because this balance issue would become a problem. v6 doesn't even have first-order stability without a balance shaft, making it unbalanced in a much worse way that i4.
>how so?
the block is the same length as a v8 and still has space for the other 2 pistons that aren't there, meaning all that space is completely wasted and adds weight and length.
>unnatural bank angle
the v6 requires a 120-degree angle between firing, meaning the cylinders should be either 60 or 120 degrees apart. A 90-degree v6 requires special offset crankpins and a balance shaft to compensate for the otherwise uneven firing angle.

Go ahead and call me autistic for explaining why you're so fucking wrong, but also do everyone a favor and please never attempt to talk about engine balance again. There's a reason sports cars use V8 and F6, econoboxes use I4, and v6 is only found as a lesser option in v8 cars and in cheap underpowered compromise mobiles.

>more complex piping to reach 2 banks
Wow so god damn complex 2 small headers instead of a single big one we need 40 years to come up with that.
>no place for a turbo
Which is why no V6 turbo exists.
>structural ability to handle revs doesn't change when the shaft is longer, holy shit.
Do you know anything about physics? a camshaft isn't perfectly 100% solid and firm. Every material bends a little bit. The longer it is the harder it is to keep the entire thing rotating at high speeds, specially in a quick manner. Besides, the camshafts only get power to rotate from a single side. Will you also imply that using a firing timing of 1-2-3-4 on cars with very long cranks will not do shit on them?
>that's because those are the only 2 common engine configurations that are inherently balanced, you tremendous idiot.
Sure thing, pal!
>The reason there are no big I4s is because this balance issue would become a problem
What the fuck do you call a "big L4" then? do you imply that there is no "big inline 4" because harmonic balancing bullshit?
>v6 doesn't even have first-order stability without a balance shaft, making it unbalanced in a much worse way that i4.
Which is such a meaningless piece of shit little difference for engine power that i dont know why you make an autistic tantrum about it when that's the most you will get out of "V6 disadvantages".
>the block is the same length as a v8 and still has space for the other 2 pistons that aren't there, meaning all that space is completely wasted and adds weight and length.
pic related. It seems you dont know what an engine even is.
>the cylinders should be either 60 or 120 degrees apart
And how the fuck is that unnatural? just because its not the same as a V8 you call that shit unnatural?

>A 90-degree v6 requires special offset crankpins and a balance shaft to compensate for the otherwise uneven firing angle.
WOW! ITS ALMOST LIKE IF HAVING A DIFFERENT HEAD ANGLE WILL REQUIRE AN ENTIRE DIFFERENT CRANK DESIGN! REALLY MAKES YOU THINK!

>Go ahead and call me autistic for explaining why you're so fucking wrong
You haven't said anything that convinced me other than buzzwords or "its like this because its like this" Nor have you provided evidence of your claims. The reason why sports car use V8 instead of flat 6 isn't exclusive to just "muh harmonics". Maybe you need to read a little bit into engines.

>and v6 is only found as a lesser option in v8 cars and in cheap underpowered compromise mobiles.

Which is why so many nowadays V6 turbo cars are destroying the laptimes of V8 cars. Thank you for your smart input, user.

Its not fighting gravity on the intake stroke, duh.

what is a barra with cams

And to add salt to the injury, even on top of that, every single harmonic inbalance of an V engine is not present in a flat engine of the same cyls.

The turbo and cat are mounted directly under the engine and the high pressure fuel pump is on top between the engine and charge cooler because fuck you advantage of boxer engines.

When was the last time an inline six claimed a LeMans or a Formula 1 victory?

Something that's influenced greater by the engine length you retard.

Something that sure as shit ain't making anywhere near 500hp without the aid of boost.

V6s are like homosexuality and those wronguns you get now that change their genders - an affront to the natural order and a symptom of a civilisation in its death throes.

>Falcan't
Keking from my commodore mate

Let's stick two hot ass things under the oil pan... Subaru engineering ladies and gentlemen... What a fucking nightmare.

Daily reminder v6 has dominated v8s in motorsports for most of this current century

Top lmp cars running v6 and v4 engines
F1 running v6 for years...
V8 only in handful of touring cars... l6 literally NOWHERE TO BE SEEN in motorsports... (even Toyota dumped the 2jz in super gt supra for a fucking 4 cylinder, bevause l6 is fucking garbage)

You are plain clueless
You thin your fucking feelings are facts
They aren't
The fact is v6>l6, l6 is fucking trash and only loved by delusional fanboys
Deal with it

Sports cars dont use the 911? The most iconic sports car ever uses a fucking flat 6 you brain dead mongol fuck stick

>even Toyota dumped the 2jz in super gt supra for a fucking 4 cylinder
>inline 6 cucked by an inline 4

Sry user thought you were the l6 fag didn't mean to call you brain dead

f6 engines usually weigh more than V6 or I6, usually almost as much as a V8 but the trade off is the low center of gravity

[citation needed]

>tfw no 90° V4 twin turbo

The shorter block helps move the center mass closer to the center of the car. Plus a flat motor tends to have a lower center of gravity than an inline motor with vertical cylinders.

Also, and I'm just theorizing here, the shorter crankshaft in an H or V configuration may be able to deal with more twisting stress than the longer crankshaft in an inline motor.

Dont forget that secondary vibrations and partially primary vibrations are cancelled out.

>Plus a flat motor tends to have a lower center of gravity than an inline motor with vertical cylinders.

Doesn't really matter when it hangs completely over the front or rear axle...

>Doesn't really matter when it hangs completely over the front or rear axle...

What does that have to do with it? Are you saying you can't build a car with a flat 6 with the motor located completely within the confines of the axles? Because I assure you that you can.

OP asked what the advantages of one motor where over the other, how specific manufacturers implement those engines isn't really relevant because that's situational and doesn't really have anything to do with the strengths or weaknesses of the motor itself.

>flat 8
balance issues

Do you also believe in other nonexistant shit like skeletons?

The two manufactures that are stupid enough to use flat engines mount them in front of the front axle or way over the rear axle which are both horrible places for an engine. Flat engines are useless in this application which pretty makes them useless overall.

>Do you also believe in other nonexistant shit like skeletons?

I'm not a biologist or a doctor or anything like that... but I'm pretty sure skeletons exist, bro.

>people don't use these engines to their fullest ability
>this means that the engines are not good
Your logic is kind of retarded.

And inline sixes hang over the front axle like a boar anchor
What's your point?

hurr durr this car with flat six sound GOOD why no the plain?