Hello Veeky Forums, lately I have been quite interested in the shared history of Eurasia, specifically the Indo-Europeans. Now there have been some threads that discussed the influence of these steppe people and there have been several studies brought up.
What I've learned so far was that one of the first off-shoots of the Proto-Indo European people were the Yamna people. According to wikipedia they had dark hair and eyes, with light skin and were quite tall on average. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture#Physical_characteristics
There are several studies that show up that it is Northern Europeans, the people with the highest amount of fair skin and eyes have the most admixture of the Yamna people. Someone in the threads said that the depigmentation was actually already occuring in the neolithic farmer populations and was therefore, more or less native to the European farmers.
Now here comes the confusing part. I have also been reading up on the Tocharians and the early Iranians. Now according to wikipedia these people however were quite depigmentated.
"Many of the mummies have been found in very good condition, owing to the dryness of the desert and the desiccation it produced in the corpses. The mummies share many typical Europoid body features (elongated bodies, angular faces, recessed eyes), and many of them have their hair physically intact, ranging in color from blond to red to deep brown, and generally long, curly and braided.".
My question is. If the Yamna were dark haired and eyed, and they supposedly got lighter features from the people they invaded. How did other early off-shoots like the Tocharians who lived in China obtain these features?
"INDOEUROPEAN" IS A LINGUONYM, NOT A RACIONYM, NOR AN ETHNONYM.
Brandon Cook
Eastern-European steppe admixture if you like then.
Leo Sullivan
Light eyes were present already in in Hunter-gatherers of Europe even prior the spread of Indo-Europeans, but those hunter-gatherers had considerably darker skin.
Kayden Gonzalez
You're not getting the point. I am asking how people in China got light features from an Indo-European population (Tocharians) while the original Indo-Europeans (Yamna) were dark haired and eyed.
Parker Rivera
you should read the first post again
Wyatt Cox
>Yamna were dark haired and eyed What?
Leo Evans
Yes, do some research on the subject
Brandon Sanchez
They brought fair skin to Europe, how could they be black haired/eyed?
Ethan Wilson
>They brought fair skin to Europe
The first to bring white skin to Europe were neolithic farmers from Anatolia, my Polish friend, though it must be noted that some isolated population of WHG in Scandinavia started developing it indipendently.
Either way, black eyes and hair aren't ncessairly associated with dark skin, one can very well be relatively white light skinned but with dark eyes and hair, again, see the Neolithic farmers from Western Anatolia.
But apparently Yamnaya weren't even particularly light skinned, their skin pigmentation was even darker than contemporary Southern Europeans.
>Another article released a year later basically revealed the same thing, although this study focused the pigmentation of many ancient European populations in comparison to modern ones including pre Neolithic Western Hunter Gatherers and early Neolithic Farmers in Europe. But the study did also include a sample set from the Yamnaya culture which is identified by most linguists as the speakers of the Proto Indo-European language on the eve of their great expansion. Only 11% of the Yamnaya in this sample from the Samar Oblast region carry alleles for light eyes, as they are noticeably darker pigmented in skin and eyes than contemporary Southern Europeans. See data below.
"The new study seems to confirm the results of Wilde et al. on steppe groups, as the Yamnaya had a very low frequency of the HERC2 derived "blue eye" allele and a lower frequency of the SLC45A2 "light skin" allele than any modern Europeans."
"It seems that light pigmentation traits had already existed in pre-Indo-European Europeans (both farmers and hunter-gatherers) and so long-standing philological attempts to correlate them with the arrival of light-pigmented Indo-Europeans from the steppe (or indeed anywhere), and to contrast them with darker pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Europe were misguided. If anything, it seems that the "fairest of them all" were the Scandinavian hunter-gatherers, and a combination of light/dark pigmentation was also present in Neolithic farmers and Western Hunter Gatherers in various combinations."
Usually it's a Polish guy who brings up your outdated argument
Samuel Morales
Native European-Hunter gatherers - dark skin, light eyes, dark hair
Early Farmers - dark eyes/hair but they carried allele for light skin same as Yamnaya, though one gene isn't enough to determine skin color we don't know really know everything about it same with eye color some genes are associated with eye color but we don't know that for a fact
Yamnaya - had the lightest skin tone out of these but so far out of 63 remains tested vast majority were dark haired and dark eyed, but light features were also present in like 10%.
Keep in mind that population was very low back then and blue eyes are dated to have appeared 10k to 5k years ago, light skin and blond hair are also relatively new, so it took some time migrations/sexual selection for it to become widespread.
Eye, hair, and skin pigmentation are highly variable in humans, particularly in western Eurasian populations. This diversity may be explained by population history, the relaxation of selection pressures, or positive selection. To investigate whether positive natural selection is responsible for depigmentation within Europe, we estimated the strength of selection acting on three genes known to have significant effects on human pigmentation. In a direct approach, these estimates were made using ancient DNA from prehistoric Europeans and computer simulations. This allowed us to determine selection coefficients for a precisely bounded period in the deep past. Our results indicate that strong selection has been operating on pigmentation-related genes within western Eurasia for the past 5,000 y.
Also at the time of of Tarim Mummies central asians like Schytians were lighter than Europeans at the time.
Connor Perez
apparently many of the chg and ehgs had some of the derived alleles for light skin as well even before the neolithic expansion.
Hunter Phillips
Ah, so you're a Finn from that autistic /int/ circlejerk. I'm tired of you both.
Charles Green
...
Jacob Long
If a certain people share a language I'm pretty sure they would also be ethnically similar you autist. Finno-Ugrics for example.
Aaron Walker
We're talking about 3200 bc Yamnaya, not Tocharians.
Mason Taylor
>Finno-Ugrics for example That's probably the worst example you could think of. Hungarians are absolutely nothing like Nenets, either racially or culturally.
Jose Phillips
Western steppe was basically R1b and dark features Eastern Steppe mainly R1a and lighter features
Keep in mind that these cultures weren't necessarily monethnic and people were very closely genetically related. Recent testings came for example from Unetice culture/Corded ware their aDNA varied very differently even though didn't live that far off from each other and those even though Corded Ware is a direct continuation from Yamnaya.
>We're talking about 3200 bc Yamnaya, not Tocharians.
So I pretty much answered that in earlier post and the other guy did too.
Lucas Bailey
How did blondism and blue eyes become prevelant in the eastern steppe people while the genes came from Europe and were closer to the darker western steppe people.
Chase Miller
No one exactly can pin point where and when did blondism and light eyes originated just some estimates. Majority of Yamnaya tested remains had dark features but some had light eyes, even though they had fuck all to do with Western European hunter gatherers who had blue eyes. Maybe it appeared independently as it happened with WHG in Northern Europe where that happened and as this guy suggested. Blondism also appears in high frequencies of Australian abbos in especially west-central region or in n Melanesians for example who had nothing to do with Europeans.
And some people like Peter Frost suggest it spread to sexual selection.
Michael Russell
> it spread to sexual selection.
due*
Camden Cruz
The word "Indo-Europeans" proto or not refers directly to the people who spoke the language, not the language itself.
These people fit genetic groupings that are correlated with perceived human racial categories.
Christian Green
>Neanderthal man >white
Carter Parker
So the Yamnaya formed up in the same area as the Khazars.
Logan Williams
But if it appeared independently shouldn't it have different allele markers like the blondism allele the people in Melanesia have?
Mason Robinson
Yeah except like 5000 years earlier.
Jeremiah Cooper
>unironically admits posting on /int/
You have to go back
Ryder Morris
Anyone want to buy a VCR?
Colton Phillips
>Tfw kind of want to have a Scythian tattoo myself but would feel too self-conscious about it.
Camden Harris
Who knows, for example there's at least three different markers in Europe said to be related to red hair, as I said we still don't know much about these markers.
Chase Cooper
This one is cool too
Brody Green
to make it simple 1. dark proto-IE Yamnaya moves to n. Europe 2. rapes the already fair looking locals, acquires those features in higher frequency(corded ware culture) 3. move back east, rape the local steppe fags(Andronovo culture) 4. Andronovo fags eventually move into Iran and the like
Jacob White
Veeky Forums is like 70% /int/ lol
Zachary Sanchez
Thank you Jesus
Levi Perez
Yeah the Irish and fucking Bengalis are basically cousins
Kevin Reed
Were these blonde Eastern Steppe people mongoloid?
The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European world, J. P. Mallory and D. Q. Adams Indo-European language and culture, Benjamin W. Fortson Indo-European Poetry and Myth, M.L. West
Wyatt Phillips
It clearly says they were Tocharians and Indo-Iranians so no.
