Was he a scammer?

He's actually a pretty cool guy and early Mormon history is extremely interesting.

Old-school Mormons were badasses that put even cowboys in movies to shame. Granted his successor was the infinitely more heroic Mormon leader.

>cesletter.com

What the hell is this? My browser gives security warning.

Objectively yes, he got in trouble in New York for seer stone scams, claiming they could lead him to buried treasure. As well as bank fraud during his travels with the church.

Bullshit, they were cowards who raided and stole from settlers and pretended to be Indians so they wouldn't get curb stomped by the military for their deeds.

Mark Twain said pretty much all that needs ever be said about the Mormons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

If he was he took it pretty far considering he was murdered because of mormonism.

Your browser might be mormon. Google it.

My favorite part of this cult is that when you die, God, Jesus, and ol' Jedediah here judge you as kind of a triumvirate.

I can see someone getting up there, they huddle around, God and Jesus give him the thumbs up, but this dude just doesn't feel you're worthy enough. Of course, he's just all that himself. Off to hell you go.

Make perfect sense. What's not to believe.

>badasses
>literally genocidal cultist savages

it's a letter to an official in the mormon church. it is fucking gold, debunks mormonism beyond the point that any apologetics could even attempt to save it

Dont forget the special glasses he read them with. Also they were supposedly in some form of hieroglyphics, even though words in the book of mormon arent even in hieroglyphics.

Not entirely, they have different forms of heaven, and if you are good person, but not a LDS, you still get to live forever, you just won't have your own heavenly realm.

Many Mormons tried to "debunk" it by literally writing "You can't prove it didn't happen".

is mormonism the least compelling religion?

>Why would you think that a man who found golden tablets that no one but he was allowed to see

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Just as many people saw the book of Mormon in its plates as those who saw the Resurrected Jesus m8

Do you seriously believe they weren't in on it?

LDS is the largest single organization on the planet, so literally the most opposite of compelling possible.

non-compelling* excuse me.

>Do you seriously believe they weren't in on it?

Jesus only appeared to his closet followers as well, he didnt go and show himself to Pilate and the Pharisees did he.

>Jesus only appeared to his closet followers as well
Not the miracles though.

Oh and if the apostles didn't see the resurrected Christ why would they then not be angry since they'd have been scammed rather than going as far as India, preach for years and get bludgeoned, stoned to death, crucified, burned alive, tortured, beheaded and eaten alive? Christ truly rose from the dead user.

If Smith's followers didn't truly see the golden plates why would they have travelled across America with him being hunted, killed, and exiled until settling in the harsh wilderness of Utah?

God truly lives on Kolob, user.

>why would they have travelled across America with him being hunted, killed, and exiled until settling in the harsh wilderness of Utah?
Because they became a cultural community.

They cannot be compared to the apostles and they do not believe that Joseph Smith rose from the dead, it is not the source of their motivation.

This is the most pathetic comparison I've heard in months.

Of course it's not a 1-1 comparison, dipshit. Here's the point that you missed though.

Dedication to a cult is not in anyway proof that the cult is true. Lots of people have gotten themselves killed in the name of religious devotion. Christians do not have the monopoly and humans are not perfectly rational actors.

This is 19 th century we are taking about. People were far more gullible and far more likely to believe in divine intervention.

I'm not actually defending Smith. I think he was a gifted con-artist and huckster who took advantage of gullible people swept up in a tide of religious fever.

Frankly I'm not sure how anyone can stay a Mormon after researching Smith's life.

The history of Christianity is unique, dipshit.

As is every other religion.

Not really.

They all have unique histories. Yet persecution has always existed, religious zealots have always existed, combined we have a lot of dead zealots whose last words were prayers to their gods. Proves absolutely nothing. The only we can conclude from the apostles deaths is that it's very likely they believed. Just like their fellow zealots.

...and why did they believe? Because they saw the resurrected Christ.

Why does any persecuted group believe in their religion? Why does any upstart cult continue to believe despite persecution? The answer is complex and depends on each individual. BECAUSE ITS TRUE is the most simplistic and moronic explanation to a nuanced issue. You could easily ask the same of early Mormons and Muslims, who were themselves hated by the powers of their day, but you tried to escape hatch this by claiming Christianity was especially "unique" by comparison so let's see you try that again. Elaborate this time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Hyde#Family_life

>Not the miracles though.
I guess all those people who were healed and exorcised by him must have been blindfolded then eh?

>Oh and if the apostles didn't see the resurrected Christ why would they then not be angry since they'd have been scammed rather than going as far as India, preach for years and get bludgeoned, stoned to death, crucified, burned alive, tortured, beheaded and eaten alive? Christ truly rose from the dead user.

Do you really think the Mormons would give up part of their income, abandon thier communites to head out to the unknown west to start a new society and then spread the faith around the world if they didnt see his miracles and the truth of his revelation? Even to this day Mormons spend a year of their life doing missionary work.

>Because they became a cultural community.
As did the Christians of Jesus's time.

>This is the most pathetic comparison I've heard in months.
You have been proven wrong on each account of your criticism of Smith and his miracles and have a no ability to look beyond your own nose when it comes to other faiths.

>his miracles and the truth of his revelation
Such as?

I already mentioned his miracles and the golden plates and the seer stones actually existing as proof he didnt just fabricate it.

>American
>scammer
Choose 2 (two).

>MIDL DETECTED

...

Not really, but he was a very bad at making lies. Even ignoring the whole religious mumbo jumbo, you have many episodes that puts him to ridicule as a "prophet", or even a respectable person.
>"Oh no, someone stole like a hundred pages of the translation I'm making. Well, I'm not going to start anew, so let's just ignore it and carry on..."
>Miraculously, here's at the end of the golden tablets an abridged version of the story told in the hundred pages which I got stolen! What a coincidence! It also foretells the manuscript theft!
>"Reformed Egyptian" characters
>Smith tries to present a bunch of papyrus fragments which he bought at a sale as the "Book of Abraham", also since some drawings are damaged he tries to "reconstruct" the lost bits with some drawings of his own. In the end, it turns out he just bought a very worn down copy of the Book of the Dead

>his miracles
Which?

Everything Joseph Smith has claimed has been completely debunked.

Based. What happened to that dogma? Where I live there are practically only niggers in the Mormon church.

Are you mormon?

Actually its not unheard of for people to become even more fanatical after their cult leader's death. They rationalize the event and move on

Yeah. Scientologists rationalised Hubbard's death by saying that he "discarded" his body and ascended to higher level.

Nominally, he should have been immortal once he learned how to control Thethans, or whatever it's called.

Except Christ was already betrayed before His death and the apostles who were already skeptical (Saint Thomas for example) would've felt scammed if He did not rise from the dead.

They did not get bludgeoned, stoned, stabbed to death, burned, eaten alive, tortured, crucified, etc. for nothing.

Look at Jonestown. Hundreds of people wilfully killed themselves. How that's different?

You're comparing apples with oranges.

Well sure if we take the gospels has historical accounts o the apostles rather than propaganda. The earliest gospel accounts dont even mention the appearance of the risen Christ, and we have every reason to believe the story as it is now was invented later on

>The earliest gospel accounts dont even mention the appearance of the risen Christ
Why are you lying?

Because its true, the earliest copies of mark end with the women running from the tomb scared after a mysterious young man explains to them that Jesus is risen.

There is no mention of Jesus himself coming and talking to anyone, that part was added onto latter manuscripts

probe.org/why-does-marks-gospel-omit-the-resurrection-and-the-virgin-birth/

Well this looks like bullshit but lets give it a go

>probe.org/why-does-marks-gospel-omit-the-resurrection-and-the-virgin-birth/

ah I see long dismissed ideas about the authorship of the gospels coupled with explanations of why the end of mark kept changing.

I they actually took a verse out of the added ending where Jesus says Satan is no more.

serious scholars do not think any of the gospels were written by the apostles, quite the opposite in fact its doubtful most of the people who wrote them had any direct contact with one

Read it a again a bit more carefully, he certainly gives the Christian understanding of the issue, but not necessarily the one most secular scholars agree with

this

>serious scholars
iow: scholars that agree with me

Well when the overwhelming majority of accredited scholars agree with me, yes I tend to give them a lot more weight. If they disagreed with me I might hesitate to use such strong language