Should they have left the UK?
What where their motivations? Were there any benefits or upsides to it other than "muh independence?"
How big an achievement is there independence?
Lastly
Collins or De Valera, who's better?
Should they have left the UK?
Charles Bennett
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David Torres
>Should they have left the UK?
and gone where?
Chase Rodriguez
What?
Maybe you mean British Isles, in which case yes, they're still there.
Andrew Foster
>Should they have left the UK?
Yes.
>What where their motivations? Were there any benefits or upsides to it other than "muh independence?"
A complete lack of rights, education and freedom, used as cannon fodder and stripped of all wealth and resources.
How big an achievement is there independence?
Considerable given the enormity of the Empire and their presence across the island. It's also important to remember the remoteness of the island to the mainland, sabotaging many attempts of relief from allies.
>Lastly
Collins or De Valera, who's better?
Both were extraordinary individuals which were crucial figures in securing Independence. Personally I feel Dev has been unfairly vilified while Collins gets away with the atrocities he and his men committed during the Civil War because of his assassination.
Ryan Russell
I hear that while De Valera was a pretty cool guy, he was a bit up the church's asshole.
Also
>atrocities
Such as?
Not memeing, just curious. I know people died because obviously it was a war but I'm now curious about atrocities at the hands of the Irish since I only know baout the 18 quintillion "Bloody sundays" or other British atrocities.
Robert Williams
>I hear that while De Valera was a pretty cool guy, he was a bit up the church's asshole.
He needed to be. The Church provided the fledgling Irish state with healthcare and education that they never would've been able to finance themselves.
John Campbell
No way being British is dope. The only thing the Republic has over Northern Ireland is trams.
The motivations were good old school Nationalism. Lasting anger from the Famine which is totally valid and prejudice financially, legally and employment wise against Catholics.
Their Independance is a big deal second only to the Boxer rebellion for bloodying the Empires nose at that time. Since it was closer to home it was probably a bigger deal than US Independence to the Empire.
Collins was better because PEW PEW martyr man.
Brayden Moore
>Collins gets away with the atrocities he and his men committed during the Civil War because of his assassination
As if Collins had a choice.
en.wikipedia.org
>Michael Collins later claimed that at the last minute Lloyd George threatened the Irish delegates with a renewal of, "terrible and immediate war".[11] if the Treaty was not signed at once, but this was not mentioned as a threat in the Irish memorandum about the close of negotiations, but as a personal remark made by Lloyd George to Robert Barton, and merely a reflection of the reality of any military truce.[12]
>Barton noted that:
>At one time he [Lloyd George] particularly addressed himself to me and said very solemnly that those who were not for peace must take full responsibility for the war that would immediately follow refusal by any Delegate to sign the Articles of Agreement.
Jack Wood
en.wikipedia.org
>On 15 December, Robert Barton was questioned by Kevin O'Higgins about his notes on Lloyd George's statement about signing the agreement or facing a renewal of war: "Did Mr Lloyd George single Mr Barton out as the left wing of the delegation and did he say, 'The man who is against peace may bear now and forever the responsibility for terrible and immediate war?'" Barton replied: "What he did say was that the signature and the recommendation of every member of the delegation was necessary, or war would follow immediately and that the responsibility for that war must rest directly upon those who refused to sign the Treaty". This was seized upon by opponents of the treaty as a convenient proof that the Irish delegates had been subjected to duress at the last minute, and "terrible and immediate war" became a catch-phrase in the debates that followed.[20]
Asher Reed
en.wikipedia.org
>Birkenhead reportedly said on signing the treaty: "Mr Collins, in signing this Treaty I'm signing my political death warrant"
>...to which Collins is said to have replied, "Lord Birkenhead, I'm signing my actual death warrant."[24]
Austin Hughes
Collins government was responsible for more executions of Irish republicans than the British. THere's a reason he's a despised figure among many nationalists today he's seen as a traitor and tool of British interests
Josiah Walker
>As if Collins had a choice.
en.wikipedia.org
>Winston Churchill [...] warned Collins that he would use British troops to attack the Four Courts unless the Provisional Government took action.[23]
DO IT FAGGOT
OR WE WILL DO IT FOR YOU
Colton Campbell
Yeah he should have joined with Dev and the anti-Free Staters to bring on a real invasion of Ireland.
Get those Brits to take the gloves off and do a real fucking colonial war with those ex-WWI Black and Tan veterans.
>Oh we got shot at from this little piss-ant Irish hamlet?
>BURN IT ALL TO THE FUCKING GROUND
It was fucking stupid to keep fighting.
Common sense: You take what the Brits give you or they will level you whole fucking island.
Ryan Clark
Do you think this matters to Irish nationalists who were abandoned in the Northern state? Collins capitulations made no difference to them, indeed they were worse off as a result of partition. Collins legacy was that his government should war against it's own so that British dominion could be secured.
David Martinez
OK now let's talk about De Valera being a fascist Catholic psychopath who gave all power to the Church.
Which led to being unable to buy a pack of condoms or a Playboy magazine in the Republic of Ireland until about 10-20 years ago.
In the 1930s the De Valera Catholic culture police would shut down dance halls where local poor peasants would go to enjoy traditional jigs and reels and a social evening out.
They would harass and arrest people dancing at fairs and on street corners and shit.
Traditional Irish musicians had to fucking HIDE themselves and their instruments in FEAR of De Valera's Catholic fascist culture police.
He set the country back so fucking far in the 1930s. It was a crime. A fucking Catholic Caliphate.
Bentley Lewis
stay mad lmao
Juan Hernandez
The other option was to continue the War of Independence.
How would they fare against a British Army that took its gloves off and went full bore at them?
en.wikipedia.org
>The biggest single loss for the IRA, however, came in Dublin. On 25 May 1921, several hundred IRA men from the Dublin Brigade occupied and burned the Custom House (the centre of local government in Ireland) in Dublin city centre. Symbolically, this was intended to show that British rule in Ireland was untenable. However, from a military point of view, it was a catastrophe in which five IRA men were killed and over eighty were captured.[74] This showed the IRA was not well enough equipped or trained to take on British forces in a conventional manner.
>from a military point of view, it was a catastrophe
The IRA could not possibly resist a real invasion.
It would be years and years of guerilla struggle ending in total defeat and thousands of more dead Irish.
So I guess he should have done that so that Ireland would still be English or finally get to be some fucking quasi-colony Commonwealth thing maybe in the 1960s when they finally got around to it?
Chase Wood
>I watched Jimmy's Hall and didn't realise it was agitprop
Ryan Young
there is no need to be upset
also you're exaggerating to the point of parody
>Traditional Irish musicians had to fucking HIDE themselves and their instruments in FEAR of De Valera's Catholic fascist culture police.
Lol
Ayden Richardson
I will, no worries!
De Valera = Retarded crypto-fascist Pope licker
Nathan Reyes
en.wikipedia.org
>Religion also played a role in the re-development of Irish culture. The actual achievement of independence from Britain tallied closely with a new Irish establishment desire to separate Irish culture from the European mainstream, but the new Irish government also paid heed to clerical calls to curtail 'jazz dancing' and other suggestions of a dereliction in Irish morality—though it was not until 1935 that the Public Dance Halls Act curtailed the right of anyone to hold their own events; from then on, no public musical or dancing events could be held in a public space without a license and most of those were usually only granted to 'suitable' persons – often the parish priest.
In the 1930s in Donegal my ancestor had to hide his fiddles.
He would only play for friends and family in the safety of his home for fear of the local parish priest.
The local priest would be the only one allowed to organize music gatherings as per the Wiki quote above.
Ryan Jones
It didn't matter because the war did continue in the north after partition, in complete contradition, Collins was funding the IRA in the north and killing the same people in his own backyard
You can argue Ireland wouldn't have the partial soveignty it has today but speaking as an Irish nationalist from a community that often bitterly refers to its southern neighbours as "free staters", the Anglo-Irish treaty did more to solidify British domination and the partition of the country here than any incident before or after. It makes no difference to Irish nationalists what Collins gave southerners when you're living under the thumb of an engineered unionist majority
Blake Jones
There's a difference between Irish folk music (which enjoyed a privledged position in Irish society) and imported Jazz. Priests wern't going around breaking fiddles ffs
Carson Barnes
They would have the Gardai arrest anyone not playing at one of their licensed events.
They hated folk music until the 1960s when The Beatles arrived.
Then they found it wholesome as fuck.
Brandon Foster
OK so they should have rejected the treaty and kept fighting until the British Army invaded PROPERLY and put the whole country under the boot.
Got it.
Owen Peterson
You're obviously not from Ireland
Charles Richardson
samefag
As late as the 1950s they were still policing music.
Irish Fiddler Padraig O'Keefee wrote about he got busted for playing in a pub after hours.
He didn't even know what time it was until he opened his eyes and saw two cops standing there scowling at him.
Mason Allen
Ad hominem shit post.
What did I say about the Clergy and its relationship to Irish Folk music from the 1930s-1960s did you find incorrect?
Christopher Hughes
At least then Collins would still have his honour as a nationalist and defender of his people. As it is, he's just another tool of colonialism, responsible for the parition of the country
Austin Stewart
For a detailed study of Irish Folk music and the effects of the Catholic Clergy on it's retardation during the 1930s-1960s please see attached.
Luke James
Really? What about all the people who would have died in a full scale British invasion and occupation of Ireland?
Fuck them eh? Cool.
Aiden Torres
Forgot pic
Lucas Carter
Dev got back in bed with the church because they excommunicated him for starting the civil war.
Both knew they had to rekindle relationships if either was to survive politically. The first government had already cemented the Church's role in Irish affairs
Cooper Gray
It was a bluff from Loyd George, there was no support in Britain for a full scale war against the IRA.
While Dev had significantly hampered the IRA's manpower and supplies by attacking Dublin, the complete breakdown of the railways and transportation around the island meant the Brits' logistics across the country was crippled.
Lincoln Collins
>Should they have left the UK?
Yes.
>What where their motivations? Were there any benefits or upsides to it other than "muh independence?"
Freedom from oppression.
>How big an achievement is there independence?
8/10 big.
>Collins or De Valera, who's better?
Collins.
Colton Miller
>Should they have left the UK?
Of course.
>What where their motivations? Were there any benefits or upsides to it other than "muh independence?"
700 years of genocide and oppression
>How big an achievement is there independence?
Very big achievement. We brought the British Empire to its knees. They were begging for a treaty.
>Collins or De Valera, who's better?
They were both very good and are heroes to Ireland but Collins completely fucked up with the treaty. Over all, I would have to say De Velera.
Zachary Bailey
Ireland tends to be a lot better off than NI in my experience.
Carson Russell
Some of you Brits are alright. Don't go to the GPO tomorrow.
Hudson Collins
Gaining Independence prevented us from being bombed to shit in WWII.
Jackson Ward
Ireland was entirely justified in its independence.
I am pretty sure Ireland (the whole island) is the only place of europe that has a smaller population nowadays than in the first half of the XIX century.
That is because of the famine, and the millions who afterwards emmigrated to the USA and Great Britain.
Even Southern Italy, in which millions of people emmigrated to the USA, Argentina, Brazil, and North Italy after the Italian unification and the end of the Kingdom of the 2 Sicilies, doesnt have a smaller population nowadays than 150 years ago.
The British treated the Irish as worse than second class citizens for centuries, and mismanaged terribly the Island.
Nowadays independent Ireland is wealthier than Belfast.