F1 Engine Designer AMA

look at that downforce

this cow is a mountain

Good books on engine design/layout/tuning?

i used, and referenced, that image in my CFD assignment.

Ineterestingly the current F1 IC Engine is a 90 degree V6 and despite all the hate this layout gets on here it's quite possibly the best engine in the world right now,

>600bhp/L
6,000 mile life (actually a lot for a race engine)
>50% thermal efficiency

My absolute worst engine I ever worked on designing was an I6 for a luxury automotive client, so go figure.

Corvette or GTR

and how do I become you

How are the inlet ports and combustion chambers in F1 engines finished? Any super secret coatings or novel surface treatments in use?

Are you looking for something technical or for the layperson? If you want something as a starting point Carroll Smith's books are all excellent. If you are looking for something in-depth then pic related is my bible

No shit, my college CFD assignment was on the aerodynamics of race horses, I'll see if I can dig out some of my images.

As technical as possible. I wanna really learn about the stuff

Long rod or short rod engine

Sorry forgot pic.

I don't really get this meme about which is faster, a 13 year old in a Formula Ford could trounce either round any race circuit worth talking about.

Oh and to become me you'd probably need to stab me and steal my identity card.... Oh wait to become an F1 engineer? Study a STEM subject to Uni or at least technical apprentice level, then get to your local race track and get to know the pro's running there. Motorsport's a small world.

Personally we don't, but I can't speak for the other manufacturers. We did try coating the inlet but it was to reduce inlet temperature rather than increase flow, and it didn't actually help. With highly boosted turbo's the exhaust port is much more performance critical as that is where the heat is scavenged for the turbine. Same reason for the chamber.

What's the rough effenciency percentage between a canted pushrod head and a DOHC modern head assuming cam profile specs are the same. tl;dr about how much hp per cubic inch is different head style worth when equal

Conrod length is pretty irrelevant in engine design, I've never worked on an engine where the rod length has been the driving design factor, it usually just ends up being that length as a result of the deck height and bore/stroke dimensions. The V8 F1 cars ran some hilariously short rods though these have lengthened for the V6.

What kind of efficiency are you talking about? Volumetric efficiency? Overall thermal efficiency of the engine? Because neither of those are directly controlled by how you actuate the valves. If both engines have the same cam and same port you'll get the same volumetric efficiency and same power. The advantage of DOHC over pushrod on an NA engine is that it will generally allow for more favourable port which will improve airflow. How much better completely depends on how good the engineer who designed the intake system is.

Thanks. Meant more efficiency per cubic inch. I probably should've asked how much power combustion chamber shape and spark plug placement is worth

Why aren't OHV with 4 or more valves per cylinder more common?

I only know of Honda doing this for the CX500, pic related. I can only assume that the extra cost and complexity required in the fancy rocker arms means that for multi-cylinder engines DOHC is just a neater solution.

Geometry gets tricky with running the pushrods through the water jackets and cylinder heads to get a decent angle on a 4 valve head. Also the lobes on the camshaft would have to be incredibly thin as well as the lifters and you would probably just run into a lot of valvetrain deflection at the rpm range where a 4v setup becomes beneficial

How would I tune a turbocharged motorcyle engine?

I.e. how do I detect knock. I don't have access to spark plugs with pressure ports/pressure transducers.

Straight cut gears

I'm going as a CS student is that good do you get paid well? btw how hard is it to be or become a racecar driver.

Would a racecar with a proper CVT (read: no bullshit "shifting" pauses) ever be viable? I think Williams made a prototype for one in the 90s but apart from that I've never heard anything else.

I mean in theory, keeping the engine at the optimum RPM constantly should make it pretty fast,right?

what would you do to design a diesel engine to be built for high speed racing? of course it won't hit F1 tier but how would you minmax that shit for maximum vroom?

how does the intake charge behave above 6000 rpm ?
its just that for most engines this is where torque starts to drop off

I think the air has less time to get into the engine
even at higher pressure there would be less volume I suppose

Bring back rosaries and gas turbines..

32 valve cross flow flat head v8 running with 30 psi boost ?
just with an aim to have some power and reliability by eliminating the need for head gaskets

main problem is bulk and low compression ratio
that and valve heads can still shear off

whats the difference between petrol spec oil say 15-40 weight and diesel spec oil of the same weight? Is it just additives or is it more then that?

How feasible is the Red Bull X2010? I know it was said it was technically possible but it kinda sounds like bullshit.

Oh it's possible.

But the amount of G's it would induce on the human body would make it impractical for anyone to operate for longer than 5 minutes before they pass out.

It'd basically give you a concussion after two laps at Spa 'cause your brain would be smooshing back and forth against the sides of your skull. It has limits that are higher than the human body essentially.

what if it was piloted remotely via VR/Simulator?

What engine configuration would you guys develop if the new F1 owners said:
>1.0L
>Two turbo's
>Max 2.5 bar of boost
>18K RPM
V8? V10? I4?

Because, thanks to their truck heritage, OHV engines are generally designed with tall strokes, so they don't need to go to high RPM to produce power. High RPM is where multivalve really shines. GM tried a 4v OHV conversion for the LS7, wasn't worth the added complexity.

Also Cummins 24v.

Yes, assuming it doesn't break and doesn't have massive power losses, it'd outperform a conventional transmission. We're a long way from both though, because CVT development in racing is nonexistent.

Not OP, but you can buy standalone knock detectors. Also, just keep it on a safe boost level (below 0.5 bar) on stock internals, since those are really high compression on most sportsbikes. You use factory timing, add a couple degrees as safety margin, and then you make sure your wideband lambda sensor is on a really safe (12.5 or 13 to 1) level.

Or you pay someone to do it, who then has to repair your bike if he blows it up.

Why aren't turbo 6-cylinders more common?
Not really in motorsports, just in general.

OP is dead. Long live the surrogate engineer.

If you want to see high performance diesels, go look at Le Mans. The recipe there is mainly dictated by the rulebook (as is any racing engine, really), but it boils down to:
>Biggest displacement you can get
>Most boost you can throw at it
>Most cilinders you can squeeze into your chassis
>Try and get the most RPM out of it
>Add a hybrid system, including MGU-H
More displacement and boost are logical steps, as is the hybrid system. What's wierd about diesels is that they're RPM limited not by valvetrain (like gasoline engines are), but by their flame front. Roughly speaking, the flame front dictates the maximum piston speed, so you want a relatively short stroke to be able to realise that high RPM. This means you need smaller cilinders - and if you want high displacement and small cilinders, that means you need a lot of cilinders. At the peak of diesel Le Mans cars, Peugeot and Audi were both rocking 5.5 litre twinturbo V12 diesels. After that, they got smaller and smaller.

It doesn't even get supersonic or anything fancy in a commuter car, it's just that most bottom ends (pistons, crank, rods) aren't designed for high-RPM use. In most engines, torque drops off around that mark, because we want it to. We limit the camshaft, and other parts of the system to make sure it doesn't significantly overpower everything, which would break our warranty expectations - and that gets expensive quick.

By limiting the camshaft the air has less time to get into the engine and less lift, too. For high-RPM running, you design camshafts (and the rest of the entire system) to breathe only at that high mark, which usually means you have to severely compromise the low-RPM portion. That sacrifice is not something we can make on a production car.

>Not OP, but you can buy standalone knock detectors.

They are 100% useless (too much noise due to straight cut gears).

>Also, just keep it on a safe boost level (below 0.5 bar) on stock internals, since those are really high compression on most sportsbikes.

I plan to use toluene (like 1/2...2/3 + 98AKI gasoline), this should help with detonation

> You use factory timing, add a couple degrees as safety margin, and then you make sure your wideband lambda sensor is on a really safe (12.5 or 13 to 1) level.

I plan to retard ignition like 1 degree per 2-3 psi.

However ignition timing vs IAT s still an open question for me.

AFR of 13 at full boost at maximum VE could be a disaster.

Any chance of F1 engines getting closer to the 14000/15000/whatever it is rev limit this year?

Do you guys have any sort of special valve tricknology like that Koenigsegg Freevalve shit?

How far ahead do you believe Mercedes is right now in the engine department?

No. Also, Google InMotion Le Mans.

Great idea, but practically stupid. Even a regular OHV engine is going to flow significantly better than a flathead, and you'd be better of just trying to make that unbreakable instead.

Also, why 32v? More valves = more cilinder head volume, so remove some valves and your CR will go back up. With a regular 2v flathead, you can aim for about 9:1 CR, which is perfect for boost.

They're pretty common in modern performance cars though.
>Alfa QV
>GT-R
>ATS-V
>C43
>M3/M4/M2
And that's just a few off the top of my head.

carfag here

>Packaging (cant fit under cuck bonnets and safety regs
>More costly to develop
>Not easily usable in fwd/awd cars
Or do you mean inline 6's?

Turbo v6 have always been pretty popular

VR6 and I6 are rare tho

Can't you filter out the noise then? I mean, some wideband knock sensors send the entire readout to your ECU, which can then figure out if it's knock or gear whine - unless it's the same frequency of course, which I doubt.

If you really want high boost, you'll need low compression internals eventually - although I'd much rather have high compression/low boost instead. Owned a 650 Seca Turbo, shit was not fun when it kicked in.

Isn't ignition vs. IAT fixed in the stock mapping though? Maybe you could fix it with a few degrees permanently off, to add to that 1 Deg/3psi.

Not OP, but F1 does have pneumatic valvesprings.

>>pneumatic valvesprings

>Can't you filter out the noise then? I mean, some wideband knock sensors send the entire readout to your ECU, which can then figure out if it's knock or gear whine - unless it's the same frequency of course, which I doubt.

I bet there is a reason why knock sensors aren't used on most of the bikes and it's the gear noise. Sure thing you can try to filter it out but still you wont be able to detect light knock events (which is what I'm after).

>Isn't ignition vs. IAT fixed in the stock mapping though? Maybe you could fix it with a few degrees permanently off, to add to that 1 Deg/3psi.

That's true but stock ECU isn't likely to handle IAT of over 70-80degC

Not OP, but I can think of a few reasons for an automaker to pick another engine layout or leave a six cylinder engine n/a:
• In a laterally mounted V6 (obviously FWD), performance really wouldn't as much of a priority as trim-level-whoring is. I'm not saying FWD V6 cars are shit (the Toyota Aurion has a good kick), but it wouldn't be on the minds of the designers of these cars.
• If it's a RWD performance oriented car, they already have to deal with the longer hood due to longitudinal mounting, and an I6 would make the hood even longer, regardless of aspiration.
• In either a V6 or I6 RWD, I guess that automakers don't want to be boycotted by "mums against hoons" or some shit, as it would damage their reputation if more than a select few of their lineup had turbo six cylinder engines.
• Companies aren't selling enough of the cars that are equipped with these engines to justify them (pic related)

Just my ideas, it's great to see a non-shit thread with decent conversation; although I don't expect it to last as OP has fucked off and the first americans will be waking up in a few hours, and the thread will devolve into post after post of "EU cuckery"

>handle IAT of over 70-80degC
I'm looking at the moment at fast EGT probes that are suitable to be installed pre-turbo (i.e. inconel sheath and stout construction so its tip wont fell of after few heat cycles). I hope that would do the job as EGT is expect to rise (however I dont have any data on that).

bump

Audio engineer here.

Knock is wideband noise, you can't filter it out as it occupies all frequencies.

So what if you filter out the gearbox noise then? That's probably a precise frequency.

F1 guy please stay.
We could really do with some intelligent life around here

The issue isn't gearbox noise. Driving over gravel will set a knock sensor off, even stuff like large fuel injectors cycling can trigger knock.

It's why people map with det cans as it takes a human to intelligently work out what is and isn't knock.

>Knock is wideband noise
>So what if you filter out the gearbox noise then?

engine knock is not that wideband, as far I know it's determined by cylinder bore mostly.

anyways the key here is its amplitude and duration with regard to valvetrain and gearbox noise,

I believe the best what can be done is either converting spark plugs to add a port for pressure transducer or trying to monitor EGT.

>It's why people map with det cans as it takes a human to intelligently work out what is and isn't knock.

that's for sure should be one of the options to try.

I was going to make a homemade dynostand for that, I got 400kg+ flywheel machined for that lying in my garage, however the machinist that did the job didn't make crosshatch (as it'd end too $$$$$ for me).

Do you work on ABAQUS?
How do I make a tubular steel-concrete column behave as a composite section?

What CFD application would let me import 3dsmax model and calculate downforce/lift values on both axles?

Excuse my noobness but what does "crossflow" mean? I'm a Finnish automotive mechanic student.

>cross flow flat head

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossflow_cylinder_head

I've not run an FFT on a recording of det, but at a guess I'd say it sits between 7-10khz. It'll be hard to isolate that from random stones or even loose rattly bits.

Amplitude would be much higher like you say though, guess you could just gate it. The risk then is that your amplitude threshold cuts out anything less than catastrophic det.

Why did you get beaten by time attack cars. The hammerhead more specifically.

Oh, right. Thanks.

>The risk then is that your amplitude threshold cuts out anything less than catastrophic det.

It doesn't work like that, light det can kill the engine if it runs like for "long" period of time, while few severe knock events during transients (esp. when the engine isn't loaded 100%) are pretty safe, and severe knock events while running at max boost/max load could hinder reliability and kill the engine.

I believe the FI bike tune should be done on way safer side than on car due to lack of feedback (like knock sensors on cars) to probably that's a really big issue and I'm overthinking it.

Anyways runing over 250WHP on a motorcycle should be enough to have fun and it's easy with conservative tune.

I saw few Finnish guys on youtube filimig their project cars and how they fabricate turbo headers, mate gearboxes, etc, I really enjoyed watching that stuff.

Looks like 50% of guys in Finland either drive a rally car or do time attack or drift or whatever

Great country

Yeah. We really like our motorsports.

Will having a bachelors in mechanical engineering give me a gateway into working for company's like Honda/Nissan?

Yes.

Because F1 is extremely limited.

Can you please some good books on engine and drive train management (EFI, traction control), engine design (head design, lubrication, bearing design/load/etc, coping with natural frequencies/vibration)?

>Bored Formula 1 engine designer
Better not be Honda, those fuckers better be working 25/8 to fix their shit

OP already recommended The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines in .

I'll add pic related to that list, it covers a lot of frequency tuning and a big of head design. EFI/ TCS is beyond my scope as a mechanical engineer, and bearing design and load bearing is a 4 year education in and of itself.

OP confirmed for Mercedes.

>OP already recommended The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines in .
It's like 60y.o. one, didn't man kind made huge progress in engine design and tuning?

That's better materials, tools, methods, machines allowing better/more nuanced designs.

The physics is the same as 60 years ago

ok

I want to see the drag co-efficients of more farm animals

If I'm studying computer engineering, what are my prospects for getting hired in the automotive industry?

How do you improve an engine's thermal efficiency?

Isn't it kinda sad though?
You guys dump millions after millions on research just to get cucked hardcore at the end.
What is the usual opinion on this topic around there?

Do you work for Honda, friend?

How does it feel attaching your name to a failed program?

>You guys dump millions after millions on research just to get cucked hardcore at the end.
No, you get cucked by the rules beforehand, and then spend several millions to be the best within that design parameter.

If it weren't for these rules, humans couldn't even operate F1 cars anymore.

Again, I'm not OP, but if I were a Honda engineer I probably wouldn't have any spare time to be posting on a Silesian engine block weaving forum

Whats the most effective rotary engine you've ever designed?

What did you think of Bahrain?

would adding full VVT/L and increasing injection pressures significantly improve efficiency?

Do you "agree" with all current forms of cost cutting carried on by FIA ?

>50% thermal efficiency
COMBINED efficiency (whatever that means)

there are no race tracks in my country senpai

bump

why is Ferrari's power unit so based

will

>muh v10

ever return? or will liberty media possible bring back the v8

What do you think of NASCAR?

Yet they can operate fighter planes just fine

>f1 going down the mountain
scary as

Is really the engine of the Giulia Quadrifoglio a V6 derived from the Ferrari turbo V8 unit?

What do you think of that V6?

Hey, I'm looking to learn more about the design and programming of fuel injection systems. Got any ideas?

This a joke? No hairpins in the sky nigger

>btw how hard is it to be or become a racecar driver.
Unless you have enough money to sponsor yourself or have been racing your entire life, very hard. Make enough money in your day job to go racing on weekends.

bump

How much better would F1 be if they raced Formula 3 cars instead?

You don't need to answer this one because I've got the answer and it's a lot.

only the design of the heads and fuel injection system
the rest of it is a Chrysler pentastar v6 iirc
this does mean you could Frankenstein a pretty mean dodge charger

>diesel performance
>add cylinders

stfu