I know it's probably retarded for some reason, i'd love to know why:
All of those chavs, poorfags, and whatever else is quite a large market. I'm absolutely sure they would love to get ~10hp gain in their NA cars for small money, and i think it would be possible to create ~0.1-0.2 bar pressure with electric fans. This kind of device could be attached easily and without exhaust modifications.
But for some reason, it's not a thing, so i guess it's impossible to do. Why? Are stock manifolds/injections not capable of handling positive pressure? Or am i wrong about electric fans being able to pull off 0.1 bar without killing car battery?
Why bother when I can get 15HP easy with one of those swirly things that makes a magic vortex in my intake?
Sebastian Davis
>i think it would be possible to create ~0.1-0.2 bar pressure with electric fans
It is, Audi are experimenting with it. They are very expensive to get the required airflow for even a modestly sized engine though and that's why Audi are looking to use them as infill around the conventional turbo.
Michael Peterson
look, i know it's dumb for some reason. i'd just like to know why.
Expensive, like energy-expensive? Or just cost-expensive to make such electric compressor?
If you speak a bit of German, the guy tests one of the prototypes on the TTRS platform.
Wyatt Bennett
I'm not positive, but I think it's very very energy expensive.
If you think about a standard electric air compressor, it takes a couple minutes for one of these things to get like 24L of air up to a decent PSI level.
Some quick googling and armchair engineering says that a 1.5L engine at 3000rpm would consume about 2250L of air a minute. That's a fuckton.
Now you can blow a lot of air, but compressing it is much much more energy expensive.
Camden Hughes
Go spec the cost of the power electronics needed to step up to 48V and the cost of a 10hp compressor and the cost of retrofitting a regenerative braking system.
If you want to do something easier try just speccing the biggest 12V air compressor you can make and the needed control equipment to keep you from destroying the battery.
You will rapidly discover that your idea is not a new one and the reason why you don't see it done is because it's fucking hard, which is why OEMs with legions of engineers and big budgets are the ones that are actually doing it.
Christian Wood
Even if you can't get positive pressure, wouldn't reducing vacuum be better than nothing?
Justin Jones
Not by very much. There was a gizmo for sale a while back that would activate a small fan at WOT to get you closer to atmospheric pressure, and if you believe dyno charts it did add a few extra torks to your crapbox.
But it would only turn on for a few moments at a time because it btfo the battery and then you need to give it time to charge back up and not boil on you.
Lincoln Garcia
>cost of power electronics to step up to 48V Please don't ever, ever, ever tell anyone you know a single lick of information about electrical systems ever.
Eli Kelly
>what is a buck boost converter
Do you know anything about electronics? My point is that to get from 12VDC to 48VDC with the level of current draw that a compressor would use would be incredibly difficult and conservation of energy means that any increase in voltage corresponds to a decrease in max current minus the converter losses.
To do what you're talking about you want 48 volts and 200 amps. Continuous.
Sebastian Wilson
Just tap it off the generator at a higher voltage faglord.
And if it blows up buy one meant for welding trucks.
Grayson Bailey
Most new cars are specced to 42 volts now.
Cameron Cook
Not quite what you're talking about, but F1 has hybrid motors that can absorb unused inertia from the turbine to spin it up to eliminate turbo lag. Pretty impressive considering they can spin around 150,000rpm.
Joshua Gray
So, basically ITT we realise it takes a fair bit of power to drive a compressor hard and fast enough to load against an engine intake continuously requiring more air as revs rise.
You know, like the whole reason superchargers have a parasitic loss.
Benjamin Price
>Just tap it off the generator at a higher voltage faglord.
>What are more parasitic losses?
Elijah Barnes
Whats irritating is that people who think its easily feasible to make an electric turbo charger don't understand that when converting energy you lose a percentage of it.
So converting mechanical energy into electric energy back into mechanical to just boost is extremely inefficient compared to just slapping a belt on the whole damn thing and converting mechanical to boost .
Christian Lee
Exactly. And unless the electric forced induction system you're considering is nothing more than a hybrid setup, you may as well apply that electric power straight to the drive.
Henry Barnes
>a hybrid setup
This is a thing.
>Electric boost motor on the right
Ian Baker
In short, you wouldn't see the power gains you want. Imagine the amount of electricity you'd have to produce to create noticeable power from an electric compressor. Plus, 99.99999% energy efficiency isn't going to be found in a combustion engine.
Lucas Flores
You're not thinking that air cleaner attached to the compressor of that A100 is an electric motor, are you?
Jonathan Turner
I mean, it's possible. Using it to just jumpstart the turbos and charging it with regenerative braking and other times when the alternator isn't a parasitic of concern is a good idea.
Jace Jackson
That's what I meant with my hybrid comment. It's feasible to turn the turbo up to speed without any load against the intake (ie; building boost) in anticipation for throttle application, but as a primary source of forced induction method... Well it'd already be done if it was possible.
Aaron Butler
It has been done. Electric motors coupled to a centrifugal compressor was used to lower emissions on Detroit 'fishbowl' 6-71's in municipal buses many years ago.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea. Not much seems to beat a turbine very well matched with the enthalpy of the engine coupled to a compressor very well matched to the volumetric requirements of the engine.
Benjamin Ortiz
so, uh, do you know the rotation speed of the shaft of a turbo at full boost? go look up electric motors which can do those kinds of speeds, sustained
David Lopez
Go look up gears.
Austin Butler
So now we're stuck with a motor that lacks the torque to turn a loaded compressor. Good job.
Aaron Adams
Good job yourself. Babby's first not understanding how current relates to an induction field.
Zachary Brooks
Good job yourself. Babby's first not understanding how compression relates to load.
Jack Young
A load is what I drop on your mom's chest when she asks me for the Cleveland Steamer.
Otherwise it's what makes the spinny things do barrel rolls.
Jack Gomez
excellent post in an excellent bread
Christopher Russell
And making those spinny things do barrel rolls becomes more difficult when you increase the leverage onto the induction field.
Connor Stewart
Rotrex makes hybrid superchargers, basically to fix low RPM boost and reduced lag
>hence gears So which one is it? Geared too short to apply any relevant compressor shaft RPM, or geared to tall and apply too much load for the electric motor to power the compressor shaft with a sustainable current draw?
Sebastian Torres
>he can't accept the concept of shifting gears >he doesn't know what a torque curve is >he would probably get an F calculating the efficiency curves for various gearings go on
Charles Thomas
Once again, which one is it? Geared too short to apply any relevant compressor shaft RPM, or geared to tall and apply too much load for the electric motor to power the compressor shaft with a sustainable current draw?
Ryder Perez
I should add, when either end of the ratio spectrum and everything in between is undesirable, I'm not sure how shifting that ratio is going to achieve anything.
Brody Thompson
I'd say one of those 8 or 9 speed auto transmissions they have nowadays to keep the RPMs right in the zone.
Maybe they could make it light enough to compensate for transduction losses.
Charles Ramirez
>I'd say one of those 8 or 9 speed auto transmissions they have nowadays to keep the RPMs right in the zone There is no right zone. You'll spin the compressor up to speed, but by that time you won't have enough PTO torque to spin it fast enough to load the intake tract, unless maybe you're boosting a 600cc at 1000rpm.
Owen Brooks
Turbo maps are great. You should post more of them.
Asher Morales
Likewise
Robert Johnson
If you want to know the honest truth, it'd be diesel-electric trains.
As far as I know, they're mainly supercharged two-strokes, and the whole bit anyway is to power the electric drive wheels.
Juan Gomez
Supercharger - Receives mechanical energy via the crankshaft - Uses crankshaft rotation to rotate impellers - Creates boost
Electric Supercharger - Alternator receives mechanical energy via the crankshaf - Uses crankshaft rotation to rotate stator and convert into electrical energy - Electrical energy is sent to the supercharger - Supercharger motor creates rotational energy again to rotate impellers - Creates boost
So with situation A you have: - Friction losses from crankshaft - Friction losses from belt - Friction losses from supercharger pulley
Situation B: - Friction losses from crank - Friction losses from belt - Friction losses from alternator pulley - General losses from alternator converting rotational energy to electrical energy - Power losses within cable from alternator to supercharger - General losses from supercharger motor converting electrical energy to rotational energy
Aiden Robinson
In most cases it would cost more energy then it would produce due to inefficiency of a generator & electric motor making it a net loss. The reason a turbo works is because it's using energy that's already been expelled from the system. And the reason a supercharger works is because its a mechanical connection so energy out is much closer to energy in.
I'm pretty sure they're using that to keep the turbo impeller spooled up, not to actually generate boost.
William Bennett
because a turbo that would actually function and make good boost would not be cheap if it was electric.
Electric motors that spin at high enough speeds with enough torque to turn the turbine enough to make good boost are over $300, but then you'd also have to modify your battery and charging system to compensate.
Angel Baker
you'll lose more power from wasting electricity than gain in boost. Electric fan tarbos are placebos, they do absolutely nothing.
MCM did a test on it. They're just chav microdick extenders.
Joseph Martinez
That's not the way the plumbing looks to me,
Ethan Cox
They are in production the SQ7 uses them
Robert Baker
How about a supercharger in the exhaust? imagine a supercharger that increases the density in the exhast manifold that in turn feeds into a turbo.
VW would be all over this shit, if you water down the exhast with clean air it will make it look like the car has cleaner emisions.
Andrew Stewart
I doubt that would work very well. To pressurize the exhaust system after it, it would be fighting to create a vacuum between itself and exhaust valves, so it would probably be quite inefficient compared to a supercharger that has an unrestricted inlet. In the end it would most likely be more effective to just use a standard supercharger to push more air through the engine.
Brody Foster
What if we just put your mom at the other end of the exhaust pipe and ran a lot of overlap so that when she started sucking it would increase the VE of the exhaust stroke while also increasing the intake charge density?
Blake Phillips
Wouldn't work, she's dead.
Mason Stewart
They make them for mopeds. And other small engines.
Owen Bell
This could work to reduce turbo lag.
Anthony Scott
>imagine a supercharger that increases the density in the exhast manifold that in turn feeds into a turbo.
Compound turbos do this to intake air. Goes through one small turbo and then one big turbo, then into the engine
Hunter Barnes
You can shit down the electric supercharger when you don´t need it. You can shut down the alternator temporarily when needing additional power.
Or you build a electrical turbo compound with a exaust gas turbine powering the alternator that charges a small lithium polymer battery wich powers the electric supercharger.
William Morales
>You can shit down the electric supercharger when you don´t need it.
Some superchargers have clutches.
>You can shut down the alternator temporarily
Uh what?
So your car can shut off after a few minutes when it burns through the battery?
Nicholas Martinez
As already mentioned several times in this thread, (this picture exactly ) Audi is going to be the first large production manufacturer to really embrace eTurbos (eSuperchargers, w/e). To do this they had to encorporate 48V architecture on their vehicles vs 12V today. This gives you enough power to make noteable boost, (more than the 0.1-0.2bar OP is saying)
They partnered with Valeo years ago to develop this...I was at eaton when our turbo/super twincharged setup got canned in favor of going 48V.
So OP, unless you can figure out a cheap way to do aftermarket 48V kits, not gonna happen.
Cameron Hernandez
>turboalternator to power a battery which will power an electric turbo
so you're adding unneeded weight and complexity to a system when a mechanical system would have made more boost, weigh far less, and have been more efficient at it's designated task.
invent a 100% efficient alternator and 100% friction-less bearings and then come back, maybe this won't be such a retarded idea then.
by the way, you can "shut down" a mechanical turbo already. It's called a blow off valve.
Samuel Carter
>Or you build a electrical turbo compound with a exaust gas turbine powering the alternator that charges a small lithium polymer battery wich powers the electric supercharger.
Or you could just have that exhaust turbine spinning the supercharger directly (AKA a turbocharger) without the immense losses of energy from converting rotational energy to electricity then back to rotational energy.
Bentley Martinez
The electric tubo compound would have no lag and could temporarily run without any additional backpressure wich allows for a higher boost. Also it would eliminate the belt assembly and can be controlled better. You don´t always use full boost and your engine doesn´t run at constant rpm, the battery can compensate for that and keep the boost up from 0-rev limiter.
David Davis
Pulley and belt assembly would be lighter than an electric motor, pulleys also allow for adjustments in boost, also centrifugal superchargers exist, and twin turbine turbo's exist which negate lag.
Juan Clark
>engine doesn't run at constant rpm
who is this guy
William Collins
>i think it would be possible to create ~0.1-0.2 bar pressure with electric fans sure. with a ton of energy being pulled from the alternator being ran by the crank. it's not efficient.
KERS is the correct way.
Wyatt Collins
>crtl+f merc >0 results Wew, nobody mentions mercedes's eletric turbo Also eSupercharger-manufacturers are on their toes to throw their products at oems when 48V hits
