Why did the Ukrainian famine happen?

It's basically a case of horrible mismanagement, ideology-driven policies and some inherent flaws of the communist system.

The exact cause is that the government extracted far more grain from the peasants than they could give, which left them with too few to eat and sow for the next year. They extracted so much in false belief that peasants are hiding the grain, the belief springing both from ideological zeal (ebil kulaks :DDDDDD!!!!111!) and gross over-reporting of harvest by local officials. The local officials over-reported because economic plans were based on goals. Exceeding these goals was prerequisite for rewards and promotions, failing to meet them could cause severe punishment. Goals were stupidly high, because autistic cunts who ruled USSR though that production could only rise and rise in the communist system.

The grain they took from peasants was partially sold abroad to earn hard currencies to fund industrialization. I said partially, because much of the grain simply rotted away in the clusterfuck of mismanagement.
>A huge amount of people truly believe that Stalin killed 60 million people. It's fucking sad.

60 million is Mao's headcount. Stalin killed or caused death of about half that number, unless we count the war death, which he shares with Hitler.

t. UIDF

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Holodomor_hoax_photos

It doesn't end!

>Wealthy Ukrainians

Kulaks were poor as fuck. They were simply peasants who owned their own plots of land after breaking out of the dysfunctional peasants communes thanks to Stolypin reform. Reform proved to be highly successful, because Kulak plots were far more productive than communes. Thus Kulaks were able to slowly accumulate wealth, in difference to other peasants.

The problem with Kulaks is that they were hated by the rural hobos who were the Bolsheviks' source of support in the villages. This hate wasn't ideologically driven. It was pure jealousy and the desire to take their belongings. The dekulakization campaign was simply government-sanctioned plunder of Kulaks' property by the hobos.

ukrainians are faggots

It was a war between peasantry and communists.
Peasants didn't want to give their products to government and government didn't want to feed them when agriculture failed, and stripped them of what food was left.
Horrible crime but not a ''genocide of Ukrainians'', since from every account I read it's clear it wasn't motivated by desire to destroy Ukrainians as a nation.
Which would be literally idiotic since communists created Ukrainians as a nation.

I want leftypol to leave.

I want people who use ''leftypol'' and ''/pol/'' as arguments on a history board to leave.
Provide arguments, don't cry like a bitch that this place isn't your echo-chamber.

The area is prone to famines.

Holodomor - intentional genocide - was a conspiracy thought up by Ukrainian nationalists and anti-communists. It is even taught in Ukrainian schools as part of national identity now and it's tantamount to treason to deny the Holodomor in Ukraine. It is very effective propaganda.

Robert Conquest, who brought the term to America, has retracted all notions of an intentional genocide.

>which he shares with Hitler.
He doesn't.
WW2 is fully on Hitler.

Hitler is not responsible for mass executions committed by NKVD in 1941. He isn't responsible either for the enormous loss of life caused by moronic orders of Soviet generals. He isn't responsible for deaths during and in the aftermath of deportations of entire ethnic groups.

And so on.

>The area is prone to famines.

No, it's not. Ukraine has some of the best soils in the world and famine there is unheard of in times other than war.

Imperial Russia had its own share of famines, none of which touched Ukraine. There were elsewhere, for example in the Volga region.

The idea that the Bolsheviks actually managed to cause famine in one of the most fertile regions of the world is truly amazing. There's some merit in the saying that if communism was set up in the desert, it would quickly run out of sand.

>one of the most fertile areas in europe
>prone to famines

u wot m8

>Horrible crime but not a ''genocide of Ukrainians'', since from every account I read it's clear it wasn't motivated by desire to destroy Ukrainians as a nation. Which would be literally idiotic since communists created Ukrainians as a nation.
More so, attempts of modern politics trying to create a narrative that is was Russian conspiracy creating an ethnic controversy out of nothing.

I mean literally who do you think WERE those retarded communist making all these decisions that led to famine? Martians?

No, they were locals communists, people like Brezhnev and Khruschev born and raised in Ukraine.

>muh chernozem
>famine there is unheard of in times other than war.

The Volga famines touched into Ukraine too. Ukraine had famines in 1917-18, 1920-1923, 1924-25, 1928-29 and then the ""Holodomor"". Famine can be caused by crop diseases, plagues of pests and mice. There was also a lack of horses to plough fields and other tasks.

>Imperial Russia had its own share of famines, none of which touched Ukraine.

So are you saying there was a good harvest every year for ever? Despite there being reports from foreign experts reporting of very bad conditions, interesting.

>1917-18, 1920-1923, 1924-25, 1928-29

All of them during WW1 or with the Bolsheviks already in charge. That's pretty damning. Also, Polish parts of Ukraine were untouched by the famine. Magic was surely involved, not the saner policies of capitalist Poland.

Famous Volga famines happened during the Imperial times. They left Ukraine untouched.

>So are you saying there was a good harvest every year for ever? Despite there being reports from foreign experts reporting of very bad conditions, interesting.

No. There were bad years obviously. But bad years are something different than famine when people and animals drop dead because there's no food for them.

>all of them during WW1 or with the Bolsheviks already in charge

Not really, collectivisation only started in 1928. After 1933, no famines again (except 1947) as collectivisation and modern farming provided enough food for everyone. 1932 was a very bad year. Despite the deaths of about 10% of the population, the Soviet government provided enough aid that a reduced population could bring in a 1933 harvest.

>Also, Polish parts of Ukraine were untouched by the famine.

OK but plenty of non-Ukrainians died that year because of the bad harvest, it wasn't a ethnic genocide,

>Famous Volga famines happened during the Imperial times. They left Ukraine untouched.

No famines recorded because the Tsars didn't bother. Bolsheviks bothered to record grain amounts which is why we know these famines existed.

No one believes in an intentional genocide, except for Ukrainians and anticommunists.

t. commisar

Stalin was a batshit fuck-head who thought ideology could trump nature.

If he was pragmatic instead he could have avoided the famine.

Instead he made it worse with his batshit ideology.

>Too bad people are starving but it's for the good of Communism! Can't fuck with Marx and Lenin!

Just like the British did in Ireland.

>Too bad people are starving but it's for the good of Capitalism! Can't fuck with rich people's profits!

>Wealthy Ukrainians would rather see their neighbors starve than share their surplus
You're a racist moron.

>It didn't. Holodomor is a piece of NATO propaganda to stir up hate against the soviet union during the cold war.
You're a fucking Red Army political officer. Did you get time off from the gulag for that post?

Ukraine was predominately an agrarian country, hence them being hit the hardest by the act of collectivization .

Jesus Christ

It's funny how when you search Holodomor, half the images are explicitly Naziist

>Jewish butcher Lenin

I hear the Kremlin has the best corned beef and pastrami around!

>1921-1922
>1932-1933
>1946-1947
uh your pick refers to all major soviet famines as holodomor, not just the ukrainian one

Did it? The numbers don't match up at all

From what I can tell, this was the biggest problem. Stalin didn't expect that collectivism lowered crop yields as peasants adjusted to managing their own farms. However, the import of food from Ukraine to the rest of the Union wasn't appropriately curtailed.

Stalin likely knew people were starving, but would rather they starve then abandon his work to destroy class struggle in the countryside.

>Ukraine

no such thing

I used to think Poles were shit until I encountered Ukrainians

Jewish Bolsheviks wanted to slaughter from goyim. Also ignore all the jews calling the Holodomor propaganda fucking hilarious when they spiill that Holocaust crap that is basically propaganda at this point.

Look-up on the Volyn Massacre, too.

Why?

But user, the Holocaust actually happened

>two bottles of vodka have been left in your mailbox comrade.

How cute.

It happened?

>Jewish genocidal commie maniacs literally starve entire country on purpose aka Holodmor
>"It was an unfortunate """famine""", goy. I wouldn't worry about it"
>Allies bombing germany to hell and back, no supply lines running into the labour camps anymore
>"THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY AN INTENTIONAL ACT OF GRUESOME GENOCIDAL SLAUGHTER AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU HAVE TO GO TO JAIL"

Kike """"logic""""

Exactly. Now this event is abused by Ukrainian nationalists to create more controversy with Russia, despite the fact it's a totally retarded idea.
If Russian national reasons governed USSR, Ukraine wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Except no one said that in this thread, you historically illiterate simpleton.
When collectivization started, only Jew in upper echelons was Kaganovich. Zinoviev and Kamenev were defeated long ago, Trotsky was in exile, and Yagoda just acted on Stalin's instructions.
You're also a fucking idiot for even presuming Bolsheviks were religious and acted on religious motives, Bolshevism was their religion.

Stalin didn't care about the country side. He thought he could make the Soviet Union an industrial power house.

Russia(Empire/Soviet) was the largest exporter of grain in the world before Stalin. Between collectivization and ww2. Grain production plummeted. Turning the Soviet Union into a grain importer. Even when their production stabilized in the 60s. As the Soviet urban population kept growing. They had to keep importing more. This was all paid for by oil exports to the Capitalists. When the Oil Glut of the late 80s hit. The Soviets went broke.

Why not just shoot them? The Stalinist state was so intricate and permeating that murdering hundreds of millions of goyim would have been quite easy.

Even if the 10 million number was real, it's nothing compared to the total civilian deaths in WW2

Jews have a genetic sadistic bloodlust against all of nonjew humanity, its the reason they wont just grab every Pali and behead them, they rather slowly mentally torture Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank by destroying their homes and terrorizing their children for sport. Its also the same reason Inglorious Bastards was such a high rated film by Jewwywood.

>Yes goy its never our fault we create ideologies to destroy you. Also the fact you make light of this shows your jewishness clearly.

It was around 60 million actually.

do you seriously believe this

Yes I do that Talmud is proof jews are disgusting antihumanist(against humanity).
>It its just a religion goy
Religions are insights of the psychology of the population that created them,Greeks were analytical with their polytheism where as jews are racist psychopaths with their Talmudism that is just jew stories and jews making up reasons why they should be evil to nonjews. Even the Koran has no arabic supremacy in it Judaism is the only racial supremacy on earth that tells us something real good about the jewish race.

Not according to even the most virulently anti-communist historians. Robert Conquest, far right historian paid by Britain to defame the USSR, admitted that his guess of 50 million was completely fabricated.

Are you retarded?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

You could argue it was their Jewish heritage that led them to adopt communism, but adoption of communism necessarily meant rejection of their Jewish identity. They killed and did shitty things for communist reasons, not for Jewish reasons.
I know I'm probably talking to an idiot, but maybe, just maybe, you get intrigued so you actually start to learn about something instead of jumping at the first bit of information that was provided to you by your /pol/ buddies.

Secular Jews don't give a shit about the the Talmud, and even most religious Reform Jews have never read anything of it.

That's a gross mischaracterization of the Talmud regardless. It's got a couple edgy passages, but Judaism has a broadly humanistic message. It's all about doing good things (mitzvot) regardless of who you are.

Chosenness isn't even a matter of supremacy. It means that Jews have their own special snowflake responsibilities to God, a holdover from the ancient, insular, and tribal nature of early Judaism.

But literally none of this is relevant to a discussion of Kaganovich or Yagoda. They simply happened to be Jewish. They were no more beholden to the Talmud than Norman Finklestein or Bob Dylan are.

If communism is a Jewish conspiracy why would they let gentiles have essentially every major position of power? Why would they tolerate Stalin's rabid anti-Semitism that culminated in the murder of essentially every Jewish Bolshevik? If communism is a Jewish conspiracy why did the USSR oppose Israel?

Have you considered that Jews are predisposed to appreciate communism because it involves the destruction of hierarchical structures which would otherwise render Jews an oppressed class?

youtube.com/watch?v=kOnIp69r6vg&index=36&list=FLxgJ0vK112MRHzFqHgPKAhw

>If only the French an English accepted Stalins ant-fascist pact
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
Stalin knew Hitler would invade, he just bougth time, and he only entered in Poland when the government has already colapsed

Jews inflict misery to us the nonjews because of the Talmud no because they are jews the Talmud is just a written script of what they really think of us nonjews they didnt have to write it because they were being racist to nonjews before the Talmud even existed, the bible even speaks of gentile slaves the fact jews made a word that literally means NOT A JEW instead of just "outsider" or"foreigner" shows they are racist psychopaths. They go on to make words like shiksa for a human woman who isnt a jew, and of course goyim the plural term for us nonjews.

Modern proof of their racism is creating the word anti semetism which is anything jews think makes them look bad, so racist they make a word for anyone that talks bad about them not even chinese some of the most racist humans on earth made up a term for someone who speaks against chinese. Jews are psychotic god complex monsters who think they are above our species and thats its their right to torment us the nonjews to ttheir heart's content, that is why jews will work to create any ideology that can destroy countries like communism or liberalism its all part of their long term millenia long plan to fully enslave the human species, and they are only race on earth with an agenda this batshit crazy and done for such a long time.
Communism is a facade for jews to strip goyim of power and have complete control over their country along with disarming them. Its just a jewish domination scheme.

>"Ukrainian"

You type like you're legitimately mentally ill

>jews are responsible for capitalism, they want to conquer the world
>jews are responsible for communism, they want to conquer the world
????

>ukrainian

never happened