Lets talk about Sumeria

How much do we know about and how well can we understand Sumerian? Are there any theories about what other languages, if any, it's related to?

I think it is its own isolated language.

It varied from city to city.

We know enough to read cuneiform (many scholars probably went blind trying to transcribe dusty tablets) and produce translations of Sumerian literature, but there are still uncertainties about the linguistic features, especially phonology. It has never been securely related to any other languages although proposals have been made for linking it with several different families, or even Basque.

Nobody knows.

They were constantly intermarrying, enslaving other people, being enslaved, or suddenly coming in out of nowhere and into the historical record.

Hey. I'm that one guy who did sumerology as a degree on here who occasionally shows up in these threads. Ask me whatever. Will namefag for just this thread. (kengir is Sumer in sumerian)

>digits

Who was the most popular/powerful religious figure in Sumeria? Did they have any human sacrifice like there was in Carthage?

Pretty well, though there's still some competing theories about certain elements of the connective chain at the end of sentences.

Jesus. Ok, here's some
Elamites - Fuck knows.
Sumerians - Not actually semitic language (unlike Akkadian), language idolate. But essentially semitic as they would merge with them starting as early as 2200.
Martu - Tribal nomad peoples who take over countryside and fuck up Sumerian city states.
Akkadians - Semites, originally nomads (early kings in the king list are called 'tent-kings' not 'palace-kings') ater form empire under Sargon of Akkad and take over sumerian city states, before the resurgence of the sumerian Third Dynasty of Ur. Akkadian is the lingua franca for most of the 'sumerian' period.
Babylonians - Way later people, use Akkadian and Sumerian as liturgical scripts.
Hittites- also way later, very different composition to earlier peoples, likely to have moved into the area.

>Very underdeveloped political system
Fucking NO. Read Thorkild Jacobsen. Probably had a system of primitive democracy or city state alliances he terms the Kengir League at some point in EDII or earlier. UrIII had an AMAZINGLY sophisticated legal, buereaucratical and military system that could be compared to rome. Uruk was the size of Imperial Rome AT IT'S HEIGHT in like 2100bc.

God damn Sumer kiddies posting again

Theoretically An, but he was 'god of the gods' and so largely irrelevant. Dumuzi was pretty important, as was Innana (Ishtar in semitic). Enlil wasthe big bossman though - you could roughly equate him to Zeus. Name means 'Lord Wind.'

See here.

Not that I'm aware, but they would entomb slaves/concubines/servants with dead rulers. Look up the Royal Tombs of Uriii for the prime example.

Oh, I should also point out that there is a concept of a 'city god' quite early on that is the precusor to Assyrian and Babylonian developments. Eg. Ninurta was 'city god' of Lagash. Also very similar to the jewsih Yahweh later. This is expecially fascinating when you consider that a jewsih month is named Dumuiz after a sumerian god, that Abraham was from Ur and uses the 'god of my fathers' form that was used to address gods formally in Sumer, and that the sumerians had a concept of a 'personal/family' god who was passed down patrilineally. This is probably the origin of not only monotheism (after the fall of ur - aka the tower of babel falling) but the concept of a soul.

I realize this is a broad question, but how is the field progressing? Are there still a lot of discoveries being made and good prospects for doing so in the future, or is the evidence too limited?

How they figured out the """""basics""""" of writing if beyond me. Thanks to them and their neighbors, they elevated us to a point where no species has ever arrived to. Ever. It's fantastic.

When they did fight, and fight a lot they did between each other, they favored the phalanx. Decent spears with large wicker shields are an effective yet cheap way to arm a small band of conscripted farmers. It worked well against each other. It especially did well against neighboring tribes and villages that the Sumerians either wanted to steal from or attack to prevent future raids. Their foes would just collide haphazardly with the shields if they managed to get past the spears.

When tribes utilizing horses came along it shook things up. The Sumerians would march against the tribe only to find them skirmish and fire missiles into them. Small arrows, rocks, and javelins would collide with the formation until it packed tightly out of panic. Once dense, riders armed with lassos would ride close before throwing a rope into the packed group of men.

It would tangle onto a head, neck, or sometimes an arm. A swift yank from the rider still on horseback would tear men away from the formation. If the initial snap did not kill them, the dragging and other riders would quickly do so. Horrifying to think about.

Not well, the region is a hot bed for conflict and destruction of artifacts because God wills it.

Here is some of the writing I spoke about

The writing spread fast. Not only that, it stuck around. Ancient humans, just like us today, find something revolutionary and only improve it from there. Unlike other species who just exist to eventually improve, we improve over time to exist.

The writing on the swords says: "Palace of Adad-nirari, king of the universe, son of Arik-den-ili, king of Assyria, son of Enlil-nirari, king of Assyria,"

Less fucked up than you might think, considering the vermin currently wrecking everything in mesopotamia they can getteir hands on. We still an utter shitload of tablets to translate at the british museum from Ashurbanipal et al. I believe they discovered something like 250,000 in total, and we have most. Tablets are wonderful because fire bakes them hard, so they survive very well. The handwriting of people who were used to reading them every day and who had to write so much, less so.

>'Their foes would just collide haphazardly with the shields if they managed to get past the spears.'
Citation needed.

>'only to find them skirmish and fire missiles into them'
Citation needed. Lassoes are weapons in the oldest myths, eg. dragging souls to the underworld.

>everything else
Citation needed. Martu have never been particularly associated with horses, and they hypothesis reeks of 'LOL PROTO-MONGOLS PROTO-SCYTHIANS CYCLE OF CIVILISATION HURR DURR.'

Well, it took a shitload of time to become actual writing. It was more of a memory aid for trade and accounting, originally.

>sumeraboo or sumerfag
This thread great but I feel like we should make the decision soon

Back to Sumeria, the little villages spread throughout the river delta and upstream were the backbone of the major city states. They provided all sorts of grains, vegetables, meats, and livestock to the city for trade and supplies.

This is the first time in human history where this occurred: villages produce, cities consume, cities expand from supplies, cities spend wealth, wealth sent to villages, villages use wealth to expand and produce more, cities consume more, and so on. Contrast this to the isolated village/civilization system used by other humans. Or even to the hunter-gatherers still wandering all around the globe at the time.

Also I should point out that khopesh is a is a good 1500 years after sumer.

Waaaay too simple. More importantly, mesopotamia has fuck all metals/wood/ etc. What it does have is great agricultural land. So everything else had to be traded in. This facilitated not only writing, but the rapid growth of bureaucracy. Uruk was using a roman style standard grain ration for all as early as 2500, if not more like 2700.

Oh and the agriculture necessitated a complex system of canals, which requires manpower, which requires organistation, which produces more food, etc- you get the idea.

Interestingly until EDIII most cities didn't have walls, and were ruled by priestkings. There appears to have been some sort of strife in EDIII which leads to wall building, and it coincides with the emergance of the Lugal (warrior king, formerly an inferior rank to the priestly 'en') to the top job. It's tempting to see a crossing of the rubicon, where we later have Imperators.

Tell me about the Sumerians. Why did they wear the mask?

Statue. They actually had worship pretty sussed. Like the egyptian ushabtis, they would make 'substitutes' for people (statues) but set them up in temples, so the guy in question would be seen by the gods as constantly worshipping. Clever.

>Are they "better" than Ancient Egyptians?
This is all very subjective but I'd rather live in Ancient Egypt if you ask me. More isolated from foreign invasion, more politically stable, a moralistic religion (unlike the Nihilistic Mesopotamian Gods), and less brutality.

While the Ancient Egyptians were not above mutilation, torture, and the death penalty, the Assyrians were among the most brutal people that ever existed.

But they're a good 1300 after Sumer. Egypt when contempary with sumer was slaughtering EVERY servant of the pharoah when he died.

Nice dub dubs, but here are some of the sources that I have. I don't have them on hand any more, just remember the more impressive or surprising bits.

>"A Short History of War" by Richard Gabriel and Karen Met

and

>"The Mammoth Book of How it Happened" by Jon Lewis (editor)

I'm not sure what you're getting at with 'LOL PROTO-MONGOLS PROTO-SCYTHIANS CYCLE OF CIVILISATION HURR DURR.' I was not saying that at all. Herdsman have used the lasso to keep their herds in order forever. When I read that the Sumerians suffered from such attacks, I put together that these horse tribes must have some herdsmen in them. They would be skilled with it.

Sumeraboo, senpai

You're right, thanks for the expansion user

Ok. My sources are those I've accumulated over 7 years work in the field, and are academic. People tend to seize on the whole 'hurr durr nomads with horses' thing as the explanation everytime a civilisation dies. This is often wrong. Also I've yet to hear of any confirmed cavalry v phalanx things from sumer - particularly when the use of the pahalnx is based on that one relief (from the stele of vultures, Ithink?) and is in itself highly contentious.

Oh also I know that the horses used are most likley in conjunction with chariots rather than cavalry, as they weren't particularly big/strong yet. (yes mongol horses were small, but stockier).

Oh and, of course, we know the sumerians used them from the Standard of Ur.

>When tribes utilizing horses came along it shook things up. The Sumerians would march against the tribe only to find them skirmish and fire missiles into them. Small arrows, rocks, and javelins would collide with the formation until it packed tightly out of panic. Once dense, riders armed with lassos would ride close before throwing a rope into the packed group of men.
Who exactly are you talking about? Cavalry wasn't invented until after 1000 BC.

I assume, charitably, he's talking about chariots. He's still wrong, but meh.

Hey senpai, you have any essential Mesopotamian reading? I'm rereading the bible (inb4 Christcuck) and would like to learn about the political climate situation at that time. I understand a lot of it is fairy tale shit that didn't happen but shit like some of the Genesis people marrying Hittites and all that is fascinating. Much appreciated in advance and thanks for sharing your knowledge

Mu Chou Poo has a work which draws paralells between sumer, israel and china which is very interesting (though i cant remember the title offhand). Thorkild Jacobsen is the most amazing guy on mesopotamian myth and its origins, particularly Towards the Image of Tammuz. Algave's Uruk World system is interesting for the very early stuff. Assyrians et al are a bit late for me, but the original account of the excavations of Nimrod I've always loved (though it's dated). There's a lot of stuff here academia.edu/Documents/in/Assyriology, in particular this academia.edu/5656162/Assyrian_Ideology_and_Propaganda which you may find useful.

jstor.org/stable/23732844?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

this is Poo. Always fun to reference.

Thanks budro, reading Uruk World now, and just as an aside, when would you say the first city formed? I get estimates from 4000 to 2000 BC and it always throws me off

Depends what you call a city.

You had places with 30,000 people around 4 or 5 thousand years before Christ.

Depends on the definition of 'city.'Jericho is 9000bc, if you just mean sizable settlement. Uruk is arguably 4000, and I'd personally take that as the first as we know it had civic institutions from it's major buildings - though earlier finds of the same nature wouldn't particularly surprise me in the years ahead.

Hittities were Not in Mesopotamia and you forgot about Assyrians and Persians

>a lot of it
ALL of it is fairy tail bullshit that didn't happen, you dumb fucking retard.
Fuck off back to

I AM AUTISTIC!

>Cyril the Great
>not existing

>The Resurrection
>not happening

*tips fedora*

>they are among the first to have cities and they had the first written language.

>first to have cities
what are termites, bees, ant cities

>first written language.
what is dna

This is one of the most autistic posts I have ever seen on Veeky Forums, and I'm including the UTV stalker on /sp/.

They ALMOST got the god tier start in Civilization.
Egypt was better, with a sea, a desert, another desert, and a tiny peninsula crossing as their borders, and a fertile river across, to use for farming and trading, and near enough to the other civilizations to exchange culture, wisdom and goods with, and relatively safe from natural disasters.

Really, its a wonder Egypt didn't do better. They had EVERYTHING set up right for them.

Egypt did do better though

the Philmarillion goes well past autism, it's a whole new level of mental illness and obsession

this

humans have a limited grasp of civilization and unaware of the scope
they see civilization from a humancentric bias

cities and language is not unique to humanity

So are akkiadians sumerians?

The ancient Sumerians weren't Semitic speaking though.

How did the Arameans come to influence the Middle East so much? Their language seemingly comes out of nowhere and suddenly everyone is speaking it.

Can someone tell me more about the Ishtar/Inanna? I'm wondering what her role is after playing through SMTIV Final

Any docs on the region/civilization that you think are p good? I cant seem to find very many at all on them, most are voodoo aliens nonsense.

so was Sumeria one kingdom or a grouping of a lot of smaller ones

>Mesopotamia is so confusing.
Mainly because if you go back 20 years it was all considered myth. But now we are getting some forms of evidence of Gilgamesh and his father being actual kings.

It was probably not the "first" civilization, chances are we will never know the "first" but it is the first we know of.

The flooding cycle in Egypt was very different from that of the Tigris-Euphrates. I don't remember the details but the frequency of major floods had a major effect on the two civilizations. One was more predictable.

I mean, if they didn't build cities, they aren't a civilization.

I think we know of most of the ancient cities.

Akkadians were nomads that lived around Sumer, they saw it and took it because they were more rugged nomadic peoples and more skilled at battle. Sumerians were scholars and craftsmen who couldn't defend well. This happens a lot in history if you didn't know. It's not surprising though because as the first civilization knew nothing of empire building, actually the first proper "empire" was the akkadian civilization that originated shortly after conquering Sumeria.

The short story is that Akkadians took over Sumer, then adopted their culture (writing, religion, etc.) and basically became Sumerian but still maintained a rich nomadic Akkadian (semitic) heritage. The result was a combined culture with elements of both. But the original Sumerians were massively BTFO, despite still maintaining a strong cultural influence as the "wise men" that civilized the Akkadians.

At least that's my understanding, perhaps Kengir can confirm/elaborate.

I don't think the concept of a "kingdom" was invented yet.

>creepy religious deities
Sumerian mythology was top tier
You may be a slave to the capricious gods, but you are helping them keep back the primordial waters that could destroy the entire world, killing god and man alike

What's so creepy about Inanna/Ishtar?

You're are a fucking idiot. With a limited skill set. That will only continue to exist in a echo chamber of academic life. You are the scum.

You are talking about Mesopotamia? There is evidence of these cities having actually existed and Gilgamesh and his fathers being kings.

Pic related is Ur, with a map of where the cities are thought to be inside modern "Mesopotamia".

>dur look at smart I am. Hey everyone on /his pay attention to me, and my limited knowledge in the board. As I probably samefag the thread to make it look like I have knowledge that is wanted.

People probably get disturbed by her threat to let the dead walk among the living, creating a zombie apocalypse, in order to get Enlil to agree to let her sick the Bull of Heaven on Gilgamesh

She's a hoe.

How mad for the penis is she?

They were basically greek city-states taken to the extreme with their own cultural identities and languages.
Most still spoke a common ancient dialect of aramaic outside their native languane when saying hello to their neighbours and they would also share Deities with other Semites, but most Pantheons had a discting leading deity just for that ethnic group.

And out of all those different identities te only one left is the Assyrians that are being shat on by everyone, which is pretty funny and probably sad also.

Babylon seemed like a pretty comfortable place to live in.

Can't tell if this is ironic or samefag

Ut was you stupid fuck, each city had a king, gilgamesh was the king of Uruk fo instance

>the only one left is the Assyrians that are being shat on by everyone, which is pretty funny and probably sad also.

Considering what fame they built during their hey day it's no wonder everyone shits on Assyrians.

Seems pretty fucking hot all the time. Summerfags get out.

Is the bible useful at all for understanding some of these early civilizations?

Their kings wrote diss-raps that will live down the ages.

"The Praise Poem of King Shulgi of Ur."
>etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr24202.htm
>Written by himself.

>I am a king, offspring begotten by a king and borne by a queen. I, Culgi the noble, have been blessed with a favourable destiny right from the womb. When I was small, I was at the academy, where I learned the scribal art from the tablets of Sumer and Akkad. None of the nobles could write on clay as I could. There where people regularly went for tutelage in the scribal art, I qualified fully in subtraction, addition, reckoning and accounting. The fair Nanibgal, Nisaba, provided me amply with knowledge and comprehension. I am an experienced scribe who does not neglect a thing.

>When I sprang up, muscular as a young lion, galloping like a spirited ass at full gallop, the favour of An brought me joy; to my delight Enlil spoke favourably about me, and they gave me the sceptre because of my righteousness. I place my foot on the neck of the foreign lands; the fame of my weapons is established as far as the south, and my victory is established in the highlands. When I set off for battle and strife to a place that Enlil has commanded me, I go ahead of the main body of my troops and I clear the terrain for my scouts. I have a positive passion for weapons. Not only do I carry lance and spear, I also know how to handle slingstones with a sling. The clay bullets, the treacherous pellets that I shoot, fly around like a violent rainstorm. In my rage I do not let them miss.

>I am Culgi, god of manliness, the foremost of the troops. When I stretch the bowstring on the bow, when I fit a perfect arrow to it, I shoot the bow's arrow with the full strength of my arms. The great wild bull, the bull of heaven, the wild cow and the bison bellow. As they pass across the foothills of the mountains, I shoot barbed arrows at them with my powerful strength.

Sumeria will make its way into pop culture again next month, with Civilization VI.
Gilgamesh is chosen as their king, since other leaders aren't widely known. Also he looks like a djinn.

>Sumerians having nukes

What a time to be alive.

...

AHHHHHHHHH SHIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT