Why don't nihilists end their life? I mean, I'm not actually telling nihilists to kill themselves...

> who cares lmao

Nobody, and nobody should. It seems like being a nihilist who enjoys life is a contradiction. It would be easier to yell at the universe for not giving you meaning and just end it all once you spiral into suffering instead of living an illusion

Yet, nihilists don't, they are compelled to live despite their mortality (which everyone knows) and oblivion (which nihilists, materialists and atheists believe/know).

>It would be easier to yell at the universe for not giving you meaning
easiest option isn't always the best

Either way I'm going to die. May as well have some fun.

Video games are fun

So much this.

You aren't getting it. NOTHING matters. Therefore, the fact that it doesn't matter doesn't matter either. I am completely free to choose goals and feel fulfilled or not as I complete them.

Who cares, it's not like nihilists have anything interesting to say, it's a viewpoint that is only acceptable if you're 16 years old or younger.

Death itself becomes a topic that philosophy sees as critical as the meaning of life, namely where will we go after death? If there is nothing after death, nihilism should be the dominant ideology for humans and the joys of life shouldn't be something to live for (nothing at all really)

I live because I am compelled to live, and why my consciousness compels me to live is something I don't know

And what if you run into misery or something else like getting your legs blown off or going blind?

I told you guys that I know that nihilists know that nothing matters, so why make something out of nothing? You are free to choose goals, but those goals don't matter, and the fact that it doesn't drive nihilists into depression or some other miserable view is bizarre.

All the good times, good food, loved ones, first experiences, nihilists think they go into nothingness, and that seems like the most intense shocker that the mind can have. Shocking enough to create religious belief in some people, but not shocking enough for some to end it all, despite believing that it is a reality

>And what if you run into misery or something else like getting your legs blown off or going blind?

"It is indeed foolish to be unhappy now because you may be unhappy at some future time."

>And what if you run into misery or something else like getting your legs blown off or going blind?
Dunno. Guess it would suck.

>but those goals don't matter
Does it matter that they don't matter?

Then you're not a nihilist you're a stoic.

> Does it matter that they don't matter?

Of course not, but at the end, it just is interesting how the nihilist mind can handle and live with that shocker. It's almost akin to ego death, only that nothingness has a stronger impact.

Probably

>can handle and live with that shocker.
We all gotta go someday

>You are free to choose goals, but those goals don't matter, and the fact that it doesn't drive nihilists into depression or some other miserable view is bizarre.

Well before we go further with this, if you don't hold a nihilistic viewpoint, what do you think matters?
What meaningful things have you done that you believe are ultimately consequential beyond your life?
What makes it so mindboggling that some people just acknowledge that once we die we die and that we might as well just do things that are of utility to us in our life? If learning to run fast is meaningful in the sense you escape a bear and don't fuckin' die, so you can go on enjoying good foods, loved ones, first experiences, etc, that's meaningful enough. Just because the things you enjoy don't have permanence doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue things you enjoy. Why be miserable about the "nothingness" if it won't change the outcome? Acceptance of it allows you to act accordingly, rather than, say, denying yourself enjoyment of this life in the anticipation of an afterlife that might not exist.

>You are free to choose goals, but those goals don't matter, and the fact that it doesn't drive nihilists into depression or some other miserable view is bizarre.

It's simple: You either deal with, fall into deppression, lie to yourself in order to make yourself a purpose or let other people give you purpose. Last choice is the most popular one.

>implying they are not closet absurdists

> We all gotta go someday

I know that, but to where? I have some reasons to suspect of an afterlife (opposed to reincarnation and nothingness), so I think I can handle things

To be honest, I don't really know the ultimate answer to that question, I just reason that there IS some kind of meaning to life, but it is a topic of debate on what that meaning is, whether a moral one or something else.

What makes it so bizarre on how people handle nothingness after death is that there shouldn't be a reason to live. Nothingness should take away all willpower to live, it seems like the master override to everything. If I tell someone to clean the floor although it is already polished and clean, they shouldn't do it, and won't because it is clean, cleaning it does nothing. If I tell someone to live a life that means nothing, nothing can be made out of that life, so why doesn't the person avoid misery and end themselves?

Like I said, I suspect of an afterlife so that makes me bias in a way, but I try to look at this issue without thinking of an afterlife, and looking at the aspect of living when living has no sense or worth. Humans are "programmed" to do "fundamental" things (ex. reproduce, avoid lethal risks, etc.) for a purpose, but when the overall thing that all humans strive for has no purpose, it seems like everything should collapse on that person

>I know that, but to where?
either a 'The Void', or reincarnation

>so why doesn't the person avoid misery and end themselves?
Because their life isn't miserable?

>yell at the universe
Why? You're the one looking for meaning and wanting it and feeling like you're missing something without it. Ever consider that this is just a feature of you at this time, and not even necessary, and not one shared by everyone?

reincarnation is the same as non-existence, isnt it? "you" dont exist in either or, which is something that bugs dualists and people who believe in survival of consciousness

you are talking about people who dont feel miserable yet, and excluding people who already are miserable

i spend friday nights here, yet i dont want to kill myself

This.
Nothing I do matters in the long run. It matters to me right now though, and that's all I care about. Why the fuck would I kill myself if I'm having a good time?

Stop asking stupid questions, OP.

Lying to yourself is obviously the most popular one.

What OP is really thinking:

>I'm becoming aware that my "suspicions" about an afterlife are retarded and that makes me feel depressed and deprives me of the comfort that my constructed meaning gave my life. How do I deal with this?

Answer: in some way or not at all. Some people make their own meaning. Some don't and are fine with it. Some don't and die terrified and depressed. They really do.

What other options are there, they both seem to imply end of self

And what if their life is miserable?

I don't feel like I'm missing anything other than answers, since I don't know what the meaning of the universe is. It could be a feature of myself now, but I don't think I'm the only person who hasn't thought of this. Whether or not all people have felt like this in some way or the other is unknown to me

Because a good time carries the same value as a bad one? And how is it stupid?

Like I keep on saying, all choices carry the same value

Not really. My suspicions about an afterlife have become more stronger and somewhat secular (maybe survival of consciousness doesn't need a god).

Living a life of nothingness and going into nothingness just seems like, if it was an actual truth, would have pushed us into anarchy or some sort of mass depression. If nihilism is correct, then any and all arguments they use to continue living should be dismissed as they all mean nothing. The idea that people think that there is absolutely nothing seems like something that ultimately can't be taken in depth.

Religion is said to have been invented for this purpose, but in an increasingly secular era, it doesn't seem like humanity is ever going to want to stop existing.

>why make something out of nothing?

Why not?

>I just reason that there IS some kind of meaning to life, but it is a topic of debate on what that meaning is, whether a moral one or something else.

It seems a little silly to criticize people finding no meaning when you don't even know what the meaning is. If you don't know the meaning, you haven't found one either, you're not doing any of the things you're doing right now for a reason because you haven't even found the reason to do them. To use your floor equivalency, you're basically cleaning an already clean floor because "he probably had a good reason to tell me to." Is your belief in an afterlife based on moral foundations? Namely, is it religious and do you abide by a religious code of conduct in order to gain admission? Or do you think we all go to the same place after we die regardless of "sin", in which case what's the point of this life if it's just an interlude to the next where our actions don't matter?

>Nothingness should take away all willpower to live, it seems like the master override to everything.

No it doesn't. We have a biological imperative to live, and this is reflected by our desire to continue living and our aversion to death. Death, if you believe there is no afterlife, is to cease to exist and cease to experience. Unless experience is unpleasant and nothingness is an appealing alternative, there would be no reason to do this.

>If I tell someone to clean the floor although it is already polished and clean, they shouldn't do it, and won't because it is clean, cleaning it does nothing.

The point is that rather than cleaning floors out of a misguided belief it's for a grander purpose, you find tasks that are worth something to you personally. It could be hedonistic, like stuffing your face with food because it feels good, or it could even be for the good of others just because you like how it feels to improve someone's life. The fact they'll die someday doesn't change the impact you have in the present.

>maybe survival of consciousness doesn't need a god

Consciousness is the result of chemical reactions in your brain. If your brain is dead, how would these reactions continue?

>Because a good time carries the same value as a bad one?
I really have no idea what you mean by that.

>And how is it stupid?
You have not given a proper explanation as to why one would wish to kill themselves just because there's no cosmic archive recording their actions. The universe at large is not really relevant to the individual unless they choose to fret over things they cannot change.

Not him, but I follow the same line of thought, and I thought stoicism included shunning excess and desire. If I do not advocate for either of these things, wouldn't that make me not a stoic?

Because it has the same value of not doing it. It's all pointless, isn't it?

But at least I believe that there is a meaning, although I don't exactly know it. As for religion, I don't see myself as religious at all. Religion isn't something that is on my mind. My belief in an afterlife is more "secular" in the sense of survival of consciousness, opposed to going to Heaven or Hell. And I do think that is a good point, in which an afterlife for all people does mean that life is pointless anyways. Perhaps it is pointless, but it still is confusing as to why anyone, whether they believe in an afterlife or not, doesn't want to end themselves, since nothing matters or if there's something better later on. If it was a gamble, I still would want to live, as an eternity seems more "nice" than oblivion

We do have biological imperatives to live, but we seem to be the only species that can contemplate death and it has an impact on us. No other species tries to find meaning like how we do, and it leads people to spend their entire lives adhering to a religion or killing themselves for subjective ideology. And for people who have unpleasant experiences, that line of thought still doesn't explain why they don't kill themselves. Some people could be like Helen Keller but get their arms and legs blown off, but it doesn't make them lose incentive to live.

The last point seems to be sensible, finding meaning in menial things. Being in the present still doesn't exempt us from one day being in the future I guess

Consciousness is still trying to be understood. Materialist explanations seem to be solid, but it is still a debate as to how subjective experience arises from these reactions. There was an interesting case study of a Frenchman who is missing 90% of his brain but is still a conscious individual, so there are challenges to a universal explanation of consciousness

>Because it has the same value of not doing it. It's all pointless, isn't it?

Which means you might as well do it.

You're such a fucking retard

What's so hard to grasp
You keep repeating "nothing matters", and when someone says he doesnt care and that things matter to him, you just repeat "yeah but nothing matters".

Here's the thing: if everything is just particles and there's no objective meaning, it cones down to this: "meaning" and "mattering" are thus HUMAN CONCEPTS, thus I MYSELF decide what "matters". It is an entirely subjective thing

I don't see the need for some other force in the world to 'grant' me meaning

Fuck, your idiotic train of thought can be applied to afterlives as well? What the fuck is the point of living forever? What is the point of pleasing God?
The answer is: there isn't. Why? Because there is no universal "mattering"

Now tell me why the fuck that should mean I should kill myself, rather than enjoy and work towards what >I< think matters

biological imperative

>Because it has the same value of not doing it. It's all pointless, isn't it?

I never get this "nothing matters in the end" mentality

Do you also never try to make a good meal? After all, it's so much work and it'll only last for a short time, not forever. Might as well not bothet cooking, hm?

What I mean is that, again, nothing matters for nihilism. Why focus on having good times? Or any times?

People would wish to kill themselves if nothing mattered in the event of misery or unpleasant experiences as an "easy way out" because death seems like an easier choice for ANY problem. Got cucked by your best friend and don't want to live with the heartbreak? Kill yourself. Knee-deep in debt? Kill yourself. Got fired from your dream job? Kill yourself

It just seems like if we live for good times, then we should die for bad times

If you are just going to act offended and defensive, no need to continue being in this thread if you are just going to end up looking like an angry little cocksucker who can't handle opposition. I have no issue with opposition or you, just am expressing my thoughts, but if you act like your beliefs are being so questioned to the point where it is offensive, then piss off if you don't want to do anything but argue

Sure, if nothing matters. I'm not making the claim that nothing matters, it's nihilists who do. It's a viewpoint that has fundamental holes in its understanding of reality.

>Why focus on having good times? Or any times?
Because I feel like it. My perception of things is all that really matters to me.

>It just seems like if we live for good times, then we should die for bad times
Depends on the situation. Most problems are merely temporary.

goddammit this thread was unironically making me think until it reached that event horizon where people start insulting and arguing each other

Veeky Forums is doomed to this cycle

>But at least I believe that there is a meaning, although I don't exactly know it.

Then really the only difference between you and a nihilist is that the nihilist doesn't know a meaning and comes to the conclusion there isn't one, and you don't know a meaning and came to the conclusion "but it's probably out there."

In either case, neither yourself or the nihilist know what the meaning is. How can you measure your actions by a meaning of life you can't conceive of? This isn't giving you any purpose, all it is is giving you an idea that there might be an afterlife and that you don't even know what actions in life will get you there, if any.

Let's say you're right and consciousness endures after death (which really is flying in the face of what we know about consciousness and brain chemistry but still). Your consciousness continues, the nihilist's consciousness continues. What we did in life didn't affect that outcome anyway. Life was still "meaningless," the difference was simply that the sequel was different. So the question would be "why didn't we all kill ourselves" and the answer remains the same. Death is scary, we prefer the alternative of continued experience in life. Even the likes of Helen Keller, though her disadvantages, clearly thought there were things worth living for, whether they be spiritual or material. On the other side, somebody with a chronic painful illness might say "I'd rather experience nothing than continue to experience this" and elect that suicide is a preferable alternative.

Generally speaking, though, we prefer to experience life (even a 'meaningless' life) than end it. Not everyone needs a 'higher meaning' or an afterlife. Personally I find my 'higher meaning' in pursuing my own interests and improving myself - because it pleases me. Believing that I cease to experience it after death is more a disincentive to kill myself than a reason to, because I cease to experience things I enjoy.

Not him, but he's right. You just keep repeating "But nothing matters" without addressing any of the arguments that have been presented. You seem to be ignoring the argument about the individual. Nihilists are not concerned with the universe at large. Their own self satisfaction is the only relevant factor.
If they do not care about meaning, then the lack of meaning has no effect on them. End of story.

but is he right when he says that nihilists dont think that anything matters?

>because death seems like an easier choice for ANY problem. Got cucked by your best friend and don't want to live with the heartbreak? Kill yourself. Knee-deep in debt? Kill yourself. Got fired from your dream job? Kill yourself

You need to start thinking in terms of opportunity costs. As they say, suicide is a permanent solution to a short term problem. It's the equivalent of cutting your foot off because you stubbed your toe.

By trying to solve any trivial unpleasant experience with suicide, you are denying yourself every possible pleasant experience you could ever have.

For some the threshold of "why bother" is lower than others. Some will be willing to suffer a lot of shit for the promise of even trivial pleasures, while others seem to do exactly what you say and off themselves as a consequence of trivial unpleasantness.

See "Meaning" is a human concept. How you choose to assign meaning to things is 100% up to you.
The upcoming bowling match next weekend matters to the players, but it's likely that nobody else gives a shit. Does the bowling match have meaning?
It has none to me, but it might have some to you. This concept applies to everything in the universe.

>you were mean so Ill just ignore the crystal-clear explanation

Most people solve it through god.
Most people receive god through other people, they don´t make it up.

Before I write anything else, I am arguing that the fact that nothing matters should apply to nihilists. My entire argument is that nihilism shouldn't be something that the mind can handle. Humans try to find meaning for everything, but when the mind actually understands that meaning is ultimately itself something that doesn't matter, then it should break the mind. I don't know if that makes sense but I can clarify on some points if you want. The whole "nothing matters" is NOT my argument, it's the nihilistic argument.

And what of those that are permanent? It seems like once you are confined to a single lifestyle, from circumstances out of your hands, there is no point in giving yourself meaning if it is taken from you.

That seems like the only good justification that I can see for the entire case. Even though we don't actually know much about consciousness (and there is criticism of the only good tool we use to understand it, fMRI), it does make life meaningless if there's an afterlife assuming it is a non-religious afterlife (no judgement, we all end up in some eternal dream).

The arguments that have been presented, excluding the ones that consider a meaningless life before an afterlife, assume that subjective decisions have some sort of value to the individual, despite the lingering fact that it does not matter to the universe. We still adhere to what happens to the universe, or existence, or whatever plane you think we are in.

Assigning meaning to yourself though is much more profound than assigning meaning to events and things. The meaning of life itself is something that people would argue has more "objective" meaning than subjective meaning; that is, it's a big philosophical problem that has more discussion than the meaning of a bowling game

You come across as some angry little shit who can't handle someone who goes against their line of thought, so there's no reason to take you serious if you can't take yourself serious. I addressed part of your argument because other people raised them, and they took those arguments serious, so I only address "crystal-clear" explanations when the person who presents them takes those explanations serious.

Until then, you are just a a sad little man who seems to snap once they come across different lines of thinking, so I won't humor you and give you a "discussion" that you want. Sucks, doesn't it?

what op is trying to say, i think, is that if nothing matters why not just end it all

youd assume that there would be more people killing themselves

and youd assume that our ability to think about existence and death would override things like biological imperatives (shit, i dont want kids)

the reason why people would want an afterlife is probably because they dont want the good experiences to end, which is fair enough

>who can't handle someone who goes against their line of thought
No, I get angry when you need to have the same shit repeated to you over and over and over again

>why X?
>"because Y"
>yeah but why X?

>Sucks, doesn't it?
Not as much as being so buttblasted you repeat the same "sad little man" line with one sentence inbetween

>Humans try to find meaning for everything, but when the mind actually understands that meaning is ultimately itself something that doesn't matter, then it should break the mind.

You keep repeating this premise but I very rarely see examples of nihilism "breaking the mind" beyond the occasional feeling of existential dread. You seem to have concluded that the logical result of "nothing matters" is suicide but I fail to follow your reasoning for reasons already stated. If the abyss awaits you after death, why would you be in any hurry to get there?

Consider it like a rejection of an intrinsic meaning of life and a rejection of sort of 'inherent' morals, it isn't the rejection of a personal meaning of life. You can believe that "nothing matters" in a universal sense but still have things that matter to you. You can find meaning in your achievements or the things you enjoy. You can still create your OWN morals which you abide by. But you acknowledge they are a product of you, not 'nature'.

Nihilism is a philosophical doctrine that only holds any weight when you're by yourself and thinking furiously about how to respond to this new concept. When you're laughing with friends, enjoying the company of your family, indulging in any sort of hedonism, or finding any pleasure in your life, the last thing on your head is "the universe has no absolute or intrinsic meaning or value".

You discover nihilism when you're 14-16, you go into a downwards spiral over it for a little bit, and then you get over it and continue with your life like you would have before. No biggie OP.

>My entire argument is that nihilism shouldn't be something that the mind can handle. Humans try to find meaning for everything, but when the mind actually understands that meaning is ultimately itself something that doesn't matter, then it should break the mind.

You have literally already acknowledged in this thread that this is wrong. Just because you think something *should* be some way don't make it fuckin so. Obviously it doesn't break the mind. Obviously humans can handle it. Maybe you can't because you're a pussy. Stop acting like your existential depression is everyone else's problem.

What is being repeated over and over again to me?

Tell me then, if you actually want a serious discussion, what am I not getting? Start from there and stop getting so angry. And hey, you started with ad hominems, no need to feel like it's an injustice now.

> You keep repeating this premise but I very rarely see examples of nihilism "breaking the mind" beyond the occasional feeling of existential dread.

Exactly, that's what I'm trying to get to. Existential dread, with the knowledge that an abyss awaits you, SHOULD break the mind, but people keep on living because they assign meaning to themselves, when supposedly there should be no meaning. I kind of see what you guys mean when you get frustrated at me, so it's kind of my fault for not getting to the point.

Existential dread should be able to break a mind and drive people to suicide, but it doesn't.

> You seem to have concluded that the logical result of "nothing matters" is suicide but I fail to follow your reasoning for reasons already stated. If the abyss awaits you after death, why would you be in any hurry to get there?

My understanding of that question is, it an abyss awaits us, why not just get over it and go into that abyss to save us from the miseries of life? Have a good time, have some sex and drinks, and then end yourself before the hangover comes. By giving ourselves meaning, or by believing we have a meaning, we rebel against mortality (as I brought up Albert Camus) and the dread of death.

Biological imperatives would seem to explain it, but humans seem to be aware of these imperatives and we actually violate them (living as introverts, choosing not to have kids or a spouse, neglecting yourself, etc.). We can deconstruct these imperatives, including that of our survival; why must we survive? What bounds us to life?

1/2

>When you're laughing with friends, enjoying the company of your family, indulging in any sort of hedonism, or finding any pleasure in your life, the last thing on your head is "the universe has no absolute or intrinsic meaning or value".

Nigger you don't know about my life. You're just reverse OP. Thinking everyone must be just like you.

>Existential dread should be able to break a mind and drive people to suicide, but it doesn't.

Whatever makes you think it should is obviously wrong. This whole thread is like "why don't you guys all get as depressed as me about nihilism?" Because we don't. Why does a lack of external meaning depress you? Why must someone be watching your good time for that good time to matter? Why can't you just enjoy your good time?

And don't bring up pain. Pain is a distraction. No one here is arguing that people being tortured shouldn't kill themselves. Anyone should kill themselves if they want. That's not your premise. Your premise is that people who don't think this ride lasts forever should immediately jump off the ride. Fucking why? Why not just enjoy the ride until it either ends or starts sucking? Why does the ride have to last forever?

> Consider it like a rejection of an intrinsic meaning of life and a rejection of sort of 'inherent' morals, it isn't the rejection of a personal meaning of life. You can believe that "nothing matters" in a universal sense but still have things that matter to you. You can find meaning in your achievements or the things you enjoy. You can still create your OWN morals which you abide by. But you acknowledge they are a product of you, not 'nature'.

Of course you can, meaning can be subjective. You choose your own lifestyle and your own morals. But at the end, ems irrational, on the nihilistic sense, to do anything. Organisms are wired to survive, but apparently we are the only ones that think about survival as anything beyond simply survival.

> Nihilism is a philosophical doctrine that only holds any weight when you're by yourself and thinking furiously about how to respond to this new concept. When you're laughing with friends, enjoying the company of your family, indulging in any sort of hedonism, or finding any pleasure in your life, the last thing on your head is "the universe has no absolute or intrinsic meaning or value".

I guess? It isn't something that hangs on me when I'm interacting with people because I only know that I enjoy that company, but I'm sure that there are people with that dread on top of them ALL the time, even with friends

> You have literally already acknowledged in this thread that this is wrong. Just because you think something *should* be some way don't make it fuckin so. Obviously it doesn't break the mind. Obviously humans can handle it. Maybe you can't because you're a pussy. Stop acting like your existential depression is everyone else's problem.

How so? I mean, if nothing matters, what's the allure of temporary life? And yes, it doesn't break the mind, thanks for interpreting my viewpoints as that of a nihilistic in an existential crisis, even though it's completely wrong.

> Whatever makes you think it should is obviously wrong. This whole thread is like "why don't you guys all get as depressed as me about nihilism?" Because we don't.

Nihilism doesn't depress me, it confuses me. Different things, what makes you say so? I'm just questioning it, and questioning how it doesn't break the mind. If I was depressed, I would be talking about other religious things

> Why does a lack of external meaning depress you? Why must someone be watching your good time for that good time to matter? Why can't you just enjoy your good time?

I don't really care if someone is watching me, it just seems weird that subjectiveness has no meaning. As long as there's some afterlife, I guess I'm OK with anything that has to do with religion. I enjoy all my good times, its just abstract to believe that nothing matters, which is why I'm not a nihilist and this entire thread has been about questioning nihilism.

> And don't bring up pain. Pain is a distraction. No one here is arguing that people being tortured shouldn't kill themselves. Anyone should kill themselves if they want. That's not your premise.

I know that isn't my premise, I'm not saying that people need to kill themselves, I'm asking why don't people kill themselves. If you want to live, then live.

> Your premise is that people who don't think this ride lasts forever should immediately jump off the ride. Fucking why?

I didn't say that. If you are a nihilist, it would be expected that some would kill themselves just because, but it doesn't happen, which is good. Enjoy the ride, whether or not it lasts forever. My premise is why don't people jump off? I'm not telling people to jump off, I'm asking why don't they? Especially if the ride crashes later on, you will die in both cases.

> Why not just enjoy the ride until it either ends or starts sucking?

Because for some, the dread exists that it ends. I only question how that dread gets pushed back so that people can enjoy it?

>Existential dread should be able to break a mind and drive people to suicide, but it doesn't.

Be able to, certainly, but many things can break a mind even among the spiritual. I don't think it "should" break a mind to acknowledge a lack of intrinsic meaning. The existential dread comes when one contemplates that idea of "once I die that's it, I cease to experience", and then you feel kind of shit for a little bit, then you put it out of your mind and get on with your life. The human mind is durable enough that a basic concept such as that isn't sufficient to drive us totally mad unless we dwell on it obsessively.

>and go into that abyss to save us from the miseries of life?

Because in general unless you're depressed or ill, the benefits of living outweigh the cons and the prospect of "nothing" is not seen as a superior alternative to experience.

>deconstructing biological imperatives

We do that because we've analyzed our biological imperatives and began to determine which ones are beneficial to our genes and which ones are beneficial to us individually (that is, the conscious "me"). The genes just want to replicate, they don't actually care about "you". There's the idea nowadays that we (as conscious human beings) are uniquely aware of this relationship. This self-awareness allows us to consider "What's good for conscious me? What's good for my genes? What's good for both? What's bad for both?"
Killing yourself is bad for both. Your conscious mind ceases to exist (operating on the assumption of no afterlife), your genes can no longer replicate. That's aversion to death on two levels. However, rejecting things like reproduction, in some circumstances, is good for conscious "you" but bad for your genes (reduced financial and time burden, but genes can't replicate). We are self-aware enough that some choose that option, but there's that conflict of interest.

OP, you are either unwilling or unable to accept the fact that other people do not see things the same way you do. There is no point conversing with you, because you have already made up your mind and do not wish to really consider other points of view.

> Why does the ride have to last forever?

Because for some people, the ride is just too good. Loved ones, memories, favorite foods/hobbies, all of those things that make us happy, humans don't want that to end. Some people don't want to face an ending like that, and we make up logical arguments against the abstractness of nothingness, and there's a bias there in me I admit

How so? I'm not outwardly telling people they are wrong, I just don't see the logic in some things like non-existence.

If you want to keep thinking the way you do, go for it and see if I give a damn. Conversations and just conversations, not conversion missions. If you don't want to be in the thread, go for it. Your choice, I really don't care.

> Be able to, certainly, but many things can break a mind even among the spiritual. I don't think it "should" break a mind to acknowledge a lack of intrinsic meaning. The existential dread comes when one contemplates that idea of "once I die that's it, I cease to experience", and then you feel kind of shit for a little bit, then you put it out of your mind and get on with your life. The human mind is durable enough that a basic concept such as that isn't sufficient to drive us totally mad unless we dwell on it obsessively.

Shouldn't it drive us to dwell obsessively? I mean, existential dread doesn't question just a religion or political ideology, it questions /you/, your very essence and existence, everything that ever is you. It is the biggest challenge to the identity of a person, their very foundations.

> Because in general unless you're depressed or ill, the benefits of living outweigh the cons and the prospect of "nothing" is not seen as a superior alternative to experience.

Even like that, when we talk about "nothing", we assign it properties of somethingness. And in that case, people who are sick would kill themselves, yet they don't since they have some willpower to do so (some even make bucket lists)

> We do that because we've analyzed our biological imperatives and began to determine which ones are beneficial to our genes and which ones are beneficial to us individually (that is, the conscious "me"). The genes just want to replicate, they don't actually care about "you". There's the idea nowadays that we (as conscious human beings) are uniquely aware of this relationship. This self-awareness allows us to consider "What's good for conscious me? What's good for my genes? What's good for both? What's bad for both?"

Of course, we can determine what can be easily explained by molecular biology versus what our consciousness actually wants

1/2

> Killing yourself is bad for both. Your conscious mind ceases to exist (operating on the assumption of no afterlife), your genes can no longer replicate. That's aversion to death on two levels. However, rejecting things like reproduction, in some circumstances, is good for conscious "you" but bad for your genes (reduced financial and time burden, but genes can't replicate). We are self-aware enough that some choose that option, but there's that conflict of interest.

And that touches on the point where I am trying to make, what makes our conscious tell us to continue living? I mean, to hell with my genes, but what of consciousness? Suppose that there is no afterlife, why would our consciousness want to continue to survive? It is our subjective view of the afterlife that our consciousness must conform to, yet there's not even the slightest idea of suicide as a good choice for some people who see life like that.

We do things to continue living, to continue to exist. In that case, the concept of nothingness should override all imperatives, as the whole point of an imperative is to continue "us"

2/2

Hopefully, I am coming across as a bit more clear, and I do realize that I was confusing at first

>Because for some people, the ride is just too good. Loved ones, memories, favorite foods/hobbies, all of those things that make us happy, humans don't want that to end. Some people don't want to face an ending like that, and we make up logical arguments against the abstractness of nothingness

That's called wishful thinking - you visualize the outcome that's most pleasant and then try to construct a scenario where that could be true. Rationally, we have no evidence of an afterlife, it just feels a lot nicer to think about than "once you die your consciousness ceases and you experience nothing."

But you're right that humans don't want it to end, which is also why nihilists don't gravitate towards suicide the moment they realize there's not going to be an encore. Prematurely ending a thing you enjoy just because you acknowledge it will end eventually is silly.

Here's the thing - having this idea of an afterlife where we continue to be conscious will probably save you some of that existential dread and anxiety about death. It's probably better for you than a nihilistic outlook, and that's why people often gravitate towards spiritual beliefs even if they lack evidence to support that belief.

>nothing matters but humans are still special snowflakes with unique immaterial souls that are irreplaceable
Are you people fucking retarded? That's pretty much the only explanation for such blatant lack of self awareness.

>Suppose that there is no afterlife, why would our consciousness want to continue to survive?

Suppose there is - I ask you the same question.

If there is no incentive for consciousness to wish to prolong itself for as long as possible without an afterlife, why does prolonging itself indefinitely appeal? Why, if people want to continue to experience after death, is it unreasonable that they would want to continue to experience for as long as possible faced with the knowledge that experience ends there?

The conscious "us" wants to endure because we value our consciousness and the experiences it brings. We want it so much that we imagine scenarios were even after we die we continue to experience things. The fantasy of an afterlife is a PRODUCT of our desire to exist and continue to exist, not the cause.

That's a great strawman you just inserted into the thread instead of addressing an actual poster. Maybe you can keep arguing with your imaginary nihilist by yourself if you don't like talking to people, anonymous.

I want to know for certain that there is an afterlife, but I can only suspect it. I don't believe in the kind of stuff that comes out of parapsychology, for example, but I try to find the logic in nothingness vs. somethingness. Personally, the biggest argument that I have is the abstractness of not existing anymore (and it wouldn't be like the period before I was born, because I don't not exist before birth; I do exist before death however), as well as the idea of how people want to continue living (or existing) even when they don't believe in an afterlife (aka willpower to live)

When did anyone explicitly argue about souls? The closest is the afterlife, but nobody said anything about souls.

That does bring a dilemma for me, as I have no religious incentive to live (ex. worshipping a god good enough to be judged good). However, I /suspect/ of an afterlife (or at least survival of consciousness), but I'm not certain, so I might as well continue to live a good life and hope that I am correct in my suspicions.

Our desire to exist can create the idea of an afterlife, as you say, but it becomes a more serious and thoughtful concept once you put nothingness and rebelling against mortality into the equation. For some people, maybe not, I acknowledge that there are people who definitely think there is an end.

> because I don't not exist before birth

I meant to write "I don't exist before birth", my bad

People are using the word "consciousness" to mean soul. There is no evidence for the existence of such a thing, and the idea raises several problems. Try to remember that appeal to authority is not a valid argument for the existence of something.

If there is an afterlife I will be pleasantly surprised, but I know of nothing that supports your suspicion besides the desires of people who haven't died yet.

>and it wouldn't be like the period before I was born, because I don't not exist before birth; I do exist before death however

This doesn't really make sense and the double negative is confusing, I'm not even sure if it was intentional or not. Something having existed once does not inherently mean it will never cease to exist. The fact that you can be rendered "unconscious" (among other things, such as being incapable of retrieving or creating memories) by brain trauma is a pretty big indicator that our consciousness is intrinsically linked to brain function, and I guarantee you that your brain can cease to exist.

Because many of them find meaning in life to enjoy it.

I see. I mean, don't take my words as something to prove the soul, but consciousness itself is something unknown. The only tool we have to analyze brain activity, fMRI, has some criticism to it. Essentially, fMRI detects changes in blood flow in parts of the brain where oxygen is being used, opposed to actual individual neural activity. And there are case studies that have put some blows to traditional theories of neuroscience; in France, a man was discovered to have 90% of his brain missing, with the large chamber in his brain filled with CS fluid, yet he was as conscious as you and me.

I'm not saying that those things prove a soul exists, it just shows how little we know of the brain itself, much less consciousness.

I was only giving that specific rebuttal of something that makes no sense when it comes to opposition of the afterlife. "I" don't remember what was it like before birth, but "I" currently know how things are before death.

Brain trauma and periods of unconsciousness are tricky, in the same sense as how people use near-death experiences to prove the afterlife, since we aren't completely dead in those periods. Some scientists claim that the brain rushes to make fake memories of dreams during periods of unconscious as a way to cope with that unconscious period, but death is a permanent period.

It would be tricky to use our understanding of unconsciousness to both prove and disprove an afterlife, since we still live during those periods. And it brings a serious question on how do "we" reboot? In some surgeries like hemispherecotomies, they literally remove half your brain to stop seizures, so how does the brain turn consciousness back on if half the "hardware" is missing?

To add on to the individual neural scanning, we are far away from such a technique, since the only single-neuron scanning technique that has been developed (in animal models) destroy the neurons.

As for memory itself, it is believed that neurons are encoded in synapses (the electrochemical interactions between neurons), but studies have challenged this concept a while back:

scientificamerican.com/article/memories-may-not-live-in-neurons-synapses/

Pic related to by the way, it's the brain scan of the French man missing most of his brain compared to a normal brain

Forgot the pic, my bad

>Any enjoyment or actions/feelings done in this life are a moot point, and living wouldn't be a "rebellion" as Camus put it. I just find it so weird how the willpower to live exists in all people (who at least aren't suicidal), especially nihilists

Considering we are designed to avoid pain and death to the greatest extent possible, its not surprising that most nihilist would avoid killing themselves, since that would involve overpowering their own instinct

The point I am trying to make is that the belief held by most people in this thread is completely unfounded. If the question of an afterlife is even a real question to somebody, then they already believe in something that has no basis.

This is a troll thread. OP response never changes. Just repeat the same pattern while everyone else becomes engaged. Trolling 101.

is it a fad on Veeky Forums to call every thread a troll thread

did /pol/ leak out

The need for ''meaning'' stems from humanities experience of time. It is what we are. Ideologies, specifically religions, offer meaning; a great metaphysical goal, a sense to all of this.

I would argue that everything matters. Cause and effect, and the fact that you are subject to pain and so on. Anything you do has instant meaning to it. When people talk of a meaningless existence, they only do so in retrospect to prior metaphysical ideologies. The actual ''meaning'' of things is evident. Nihilism says that meaning can not even be created, unlike existentialism. Nihilists are as sure in their belief as the metaphysical ideologues. Maybe it's the same thing, this is a human tendency. They make sense of it all by saying there is none.

> Why don't nihilists end their life?
There is no point in doing that.

Why there is some need for meaning anyway? It isn't, like lack of meaning would kill you or some shit like that. *Meaning* seems like overrated at best and incoherent at worst, as concept for me.

I have never gotten an answer the dozens of times I have asked this.

there isnt like a huge need for "meaning" as there is food and water

meaning just supposedly gives some people a reason to live. we arent as "simple" as other animals given our level of intelligence and understanding of concepts like "self", "death" and "mind", so naturally we also think about our existence

we are a curious species, so we also want to know about both our origins and where are we going

>be in Theology class in Catholic High School
>edgy faggot trying to justify suicide
>"There's already too many people on this planet so if someone wants to kill themselves why shouldn't they?"
>priest teaching the class responds
>"Why don't you lead by example then and volunteer first?"
It was fucking savage.

You and literally everyone else do not understand nihilism when you say, why don't you kill yourself? Even in a curious manner.

It's the realisation that there might not be any objective reasoning to live and that we are here for no reason. When you have this realization you can use it as a tool to stress test everything in your life. If you can still see the value of an ideology once it's passed the nihilistic test, than to you it is sound ideology.

Essentially the opposite of all this "spook" bull shit.

If I enjoy my life why would I end it prematurely? I don't understand people who feel the need to see a "point" to life, and conclude they have no reason to live without it. It's just so autistic. You can explain to them again and again that you derive pleasure and value from your life, but because it only exists as a subjective sensation, they act like it doesn't "count" as value or something.

> we are a curious species
To put logic in comparison, change the word from "meaning" to "mystery". Why people without any "mysteries" in their life just don't kill themselves? We are curious species, so we always moved by "mysteries", so to speak. Despite such question being pretty legitimate one the people are hardly bothered. They repeat *meaning* that or *there is no meaning* in that. But they do it mostly from a social conditioning. All their meanings are handy excuses first, but an instrument of the existential thoughts second. As if they are scared not about meaningless existence, but about other people of society to stop their meaningless act, because in position without excuse to rely on they are weak. Weak against religions and weak against politics, weak against ideologies and in the end just weak against societal pressure as a whole. Meaning in a sense can exist only in broad context that way larger than individual persons, so it is associated with benefits of being the part of greater systems and willingly giving up all of your agency to them.

what if he didn't want to?

>life has meaning when you pretend it does
LOL

> Why people without any "mysteries" in their life just don't kill themselves?

Because human existence is the ultimate mystery.

> the nihilistic test

what