Better Engines

Where does this 10k number come from? I understand most of Veeky Forums's automotive experience is their dad patting them on the back for changing their oil, but most people swapping cheap a cheap chassis like an FC don't drop 10k on the swap.

Your average rotary rebuild these days costs as much as an alum LS long block, rotor housings are getting very expensive, and most are in need of replacement.

Rotary's are plenty of fun but getting one up to 400-500hp and being reliable enough to drive around town once in a while is nothing but cheap, and long run maintenance costs are much higher than piston engines.

from actual build lists?

All the little bits and pieces add up. The mounting kit can be pricey if you don't fab it up yourself. Most people don't literally pull an engine out of a truck and throw it into a chassis. If you have the engine out you might as well rebuild it, That's obviously going to cost you. Here's a build list from a 86 ls swap.

Your dog looks really hungry :'(

This spreadsheet affirms the silliness of these 10k numbers just for the drivetrain.

I'm doing the FC in OP pic, I'm $1000 under the price in your spreadsheet, just have exhaust left (already have long tubes), and I've got a 5.7 alum block and a T56. And I haven't included selling anything in my numbers.

Most $10000+ "build threads" you see are going to include a whole variety of suspension, body, interior crap, stuff that you'd likely end up doing on your turbo 13b build anyways. Drivetrain-to-drivetrain, $10000 is going to get you a whole lot more with a piston engine, but it really shines at a lower price point.

Biggest mistake people make is buying a truck engine, got a whole wrecked Camaro for $3000. $1100 for a 4.8 is insane. I bought a long block 4.8 for $300.

For the $5500 in that spreadsheet, especially with fewer silly purchases like that "Controller Kit", you are going toget way more than a $5500 rotary build will get you.

Yeah that guy made some really bad choices. You can do it for cheap or go all out which is nice.

That is the weirdest looking chicken I even done saw.

Lol Eurofags, that is what a chicken looks like in the Land of the Free

The only real limiting factor to cheap is the transmission. T56's are all getting pretty old, prices are always climbing, rebuilds are pricy.

You can get a T56 Magnum for $3050k to your door, but Tremec fucked up not offering one with the same ratios as a stock F-body, and the shifter is 4 inches forward of the old T56,

You could always just get an auto... but that's boring unless you've got a serious turbo setup

You did exactly what I am planning to do in a couple of months, weebs are going to get so fucking mad. Way to go dude, cheering for you.

but it is illegal in eurabia

The angriest weebs I have ever seen were commenting on a turbo LS FC3S with an RE-Amemiya body kit.

Being illegal was never a worry of mine

Nothing healthier in this life than weeb tears.

Found it

What would happen if you proposed or did a cummins 4bt swap in one of those?

Its more or less been done before

youtube.com/watch?v=OQlg4pwO23c

that guy had to get a new trans, and without the engine discount, it was very close to 10k

so yes, it is a 10k job, and it doesn't include power steering, AC and unless you know your shit you will have tons of wiring gremlins

Kek, beautiful. Do you have a link for the video?

What breed of dog is that? I love him!
Here's my doggo in a car

You probably shouldn't be trying this kind of thing if you don't "know your shit"

That guy spent a lot of money on some questionable things, like nearly $2000 on a truck motor, and over $1000 putting car intake/pan on that truck motor.

$10000 on just the swap should most definitely include PS and AC... Or are you planning on paying SuperLube to do this for you?

No idea! She's a true friend though.

youtube.com/watch?v=KNtPc1I88Rg&t=28s

Car sold on Norotors a while back

the point is that it is stupid to claim rotaries are unreliable when engine swaps gone wrong, which is very common with garage mechanics, are wiring nightmares

>That guy spent a lot of money on some questionable things, like nearly $2000 on a truck motor, and over $1000 putting car intake/pan on that truck motor.
an LS alone is like 3k, unless you want iron blocks which are pigfat

Ah sorry it's a she. Dogs do make the best kind of friends.

>10.35 second quarter mile

why are LS engines so slow?

Now is is my moment to shine.

No, theyre not. They're $3000 if you want to buy them online, freight shipped to your house. And if you can't wire up a swap, you likely shouldn't be doing one.

You can still find wrecked FBodies and GTOs if you are trying to stay inside some kind of budget.

Is that what I think it is?

>Controller Kit"
Is that an ecu?

>somehwere, somehow you can travel and pull a junkyard engine for free

nice fantasy world you are living in

I'm not even claiming rotaries are unreliable.

Rotaries making LS-tier power are unreliable. You're going to have just as many gremlins with your turbo rotary build as you would with a V8 swap, both require plenty of sorting out.

If you can figure out a turbo rotary, you can figure out a working v8 swap. Most people dogmatically saying that either is superior have not, and likely will not, do either.

He paid $1100 for an ECU, two O2 sensors, and wiring harness. Not crazy money for new, but if you're trying to save some cash they're available used for much cheaper.

>rotaries making LS power
300 hp rotaries are not unreliable, they came with 280hp stock

It is indeed...
...a Ford 302.

You can buy the whole car and tow it home. That's what I did.

which means that you'd need to invest in either a tow truck or a pick up truck

there is a reason you quite shipped engine prices

We're clearly talking about non-stock rotaries, and non-stock LS motors.

No one is going to go through the trouble of an LS swap and not at least throw a cam in it.

>implying a cam alone will give you 100 extra whp

You can rent a truck from the UHaul, and a car trailer. Costs about $150. Talking from experience here. Where the heck do you live?

Love doggos

so whatever price a junkyard quotes you, you'll have to ad $150, my point is that simply quoting the price of an engine is a fallacy

if you bought a wrecked camaro for 3500, then you are very very close to this build list

yet you are somehow claiming it was cheaper

Nice SVX, nicer dog.

Bruh. Why do you think it's so extensively used in amateur and pro motorsports? Lay off the lemans and Vidyas and watch or read some builds.

That build includes the man selling off his original engine and trans for OVER $3000, so looking at about $8500. I'm in mine a $3000 camaro and around $2000 in parts etc. I'll leave the addition and subtraction to you.

...

I'm with this guy. Cam can get you nearly 100 flywheel on a stock 5.7, with an intake and good well over that.

Post whole car or GTFO

>I'm in mine a $3000 camaro and around $2000 in parts etc. I'll leave the addition and subtraction to you.
so it's a 5k swap, with no power steering or AC
which basically proves my point it's much more expensive than a mere turbo upgrade

>a cam alone will get you 100 whp

right, someone tell the guys at super chevy they are wasting money on dumb shit when a cam can give you 100 whp

superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1409-how-to-add-100-rwhp-with-a-trick-flow-top-end-kit/

>superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1409-how-to-add-100-rwhp-with-a-trick-flow-top-end-kit/

It's a lot harder to add 100hp to a 400hp LS3 than it is to a truck engine or 3rd gen Ls1.

Beaters, fine. NA 13bs are pretty weak. Anything half decent and turbo should be keeping the 13B. More interesting and period correct. They are becoming classics.

Do it to an FR-S, mannnnn

It's a better chassis anwyay.

I mean... the car has a manual rack, but a turn 1 PS pump is $300 and connects to the stock lines.

AC just needs lines made. You can buy a crimper and do it yourself or get them made for a few hundred dollars. AC compressors don't really discriminate between dryers/condensers/evaps.

This isn't rocket science.

Also lol to "mere turbo upgrade," please show me this 400whp cheap 'n' easy turbo rotary build you did for $5000. The turbo II FC had 180hp.

an ls3 is just a bigger ls1

Yea, few people ditch a running turbo II. Most of the turbo cars that end up piston just had owners who gave up on a motor with a bad housing, water jacket, that kind of thing.

the ls1 doesn't make 400 whp, it merely makes 300 crank, thats like 220whp, why are you lying?
I never understood this about LS swapfags, if you are so sure that the LS swap is better, why do you lie about weight, cost or power

what stock LS1 engine made 400 whp in camaros? or are you quoting ls7 figures? ls7 engines are not cheap

> please show me this 400whp cheap 'n' easy turbo
a new turbo which is like 1.5k, bigger injectors and fuel pump, a tune and a mild port will easily get you to the 300 crank, which is as much as the ls1 in f-bodies made, and you get to keep PS and AC

No, its an engine making about 12 more HP per liter. You know... like 20%?

And as any Civic with a few simple mods owner will tell you, each additionally hp/liter comes at a bigger price. A little problem called volumetric efficiency.

Why are you looking at stock numbers? The whole point of a LS swap is to get a cheap block and rebuild it up to 400+hp and have it be reliable and last to the end of time.

If you want to go big power or boost in the future an iron block is the best. You can strap a ebay turbo onto it and be making stupid power. Yeah it's an extra 100lbs but you'll never get that much power reliable from a rotary.

These are not stock comparisons. We are comparing not stock LS motors with non stock rotary engine. Simple concept. Think of it like comparing a $6k rotary build to $5k swap with $1k in upgrade parts.

325 crank... parasitic losses with a manual trans are like 10% or so.

Here you go...
ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/28925-stock-98-00-ls1-f-body-dyno-s.html

youtube.com/watch?v=gOqwooshRxA

Exactly.

>12 more HP per liter.
literally nothing

you are still faced with the problem that to add 100 hp to the ls1, you need more than a mere cam swap

>not only do you have to spend 5k on a swap, you still have to spend another 4k in heads, cam valvespings and fuel
ok so you are at 8-9k now

>you'll never get that much power reliable from a rotary.
lol, the fastest rotaries are faster than the fastest iron LS, so even with the extra hp, you'll be slower

you don't need 6k to make 400 hp out of a rotary, whoever told you this, is lying
all you need is fuel, porting and boost

>1076
okay, what's it quarter mile time? power is useless if t can't be put down

>literally
>heads
who said heads?
>fastest are faster than the fastest
>even with extra hp, slower
>fuel, port, boost
no ecu, no engine rebuild, no tune, nothing
>example of silly cheapness of LS platform
>hurrrrrrr how fast does it go hurr
its a damn truck, made as a proof-of-concept, clearly not a serious drag build

Also I officially concede. All you need is a 13b, a weekend, a buddy, a big ol' ebay turbo, a Harbor Freight dremel for the bridgeport, and you're gonna run 6 second 1/4s the following weekend.

20% more is
>literally nothing

>who said heads?
literally anyone that wants to actually make 400whp out of an LS1??? at the bare minimum you'll need to polish and port them

>no ecu, no engine rebuild, no tune, nothing
uhh, the ecu is a given and the so called "engine rebuild" is done when porting the intake ports

>clearly not a serious drag build
people all over this thread are claiming an LS swap would be better but never post any proof aside from some dyno queens that only run said boost pressures for just one dyno run and then go back to 10psi

again, if LS swapfags are so sure about the engine being so good, why are they always lying? that guy doesn't run 22 psi in the street

Sorry for the delay.

Got the ford cheap from my friend. He wanted to go faster so he ditched the 302 and swapped in an [spoiler]LS1[/spoiler].

That's like, 20% cooler.

how absolutely horrendous

IS THAT A DATSOOOOOOOON????

HAHAHA! MY FUCKING HERO!
SLAYER OF THE WEEBS

>literally anyone that wants to actually make 400whp out of an LS1???

You need to get out more.
youtube.com/watch?v=RTTgH_ELaiI

>only run said boost pressures for just one dyno run and then go back to 10psi

Probably because anything over 500whp is borderline dangerous on the streets, Especially in a truck that comes stock with 200whp. ZOMG1200HPSOOPRA and "400hp rotary" guys don't run full boost on the streets either.

my nigga

Uh user? You're not supposed to eat dogs

that guy in the video is either lying about dyno numbers or have other mods

ls1 don't make 400 whp with just a cam

>argh I hate those evil weebs, they bully me so much!
sperg more

behold the 350 510

26B made 700hp and ran for 24 hours straight

There's a million video's and dyno charts just like it.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ze-dTE3xPjA

Shit people were pulling off those numbers in the 70's.

why is she sticking the cam into the engine doesn't she know cams go on top of the heads

inb4 >women

Admit it, you got rekt in this thread. Kek.

things an ls has never done

LS trophy trucks run for 24 hours and 1000 miles in desert conditions. V8 pushrod boat engines will run at full rpm all day long until your wallet dries up.

Lol a four rotor, cheap and easy build

>OP spends 5k to get 300 crank hp
>the same amount a turbo upgrade a some bolts on can give you for a total of 2k

theynever run for 24 hours straight

all you need to do is bolt two of them together
youtube.com/watch?v=Wmctz-VNHBw

all magazine articles show that you need to port and polish heads, get new valvespings and better exhaust

Only the mutts

Yeah, but those 5k are actually cheaper if you count in for the reliability of future potential hp gains.

>all magazine articles show that you need to port and polish heads, get new valvespings and better exhaust

Which is part of the rebuilding process... That's like $500 in parts from JEGS.

>swapped engines
>reliable
enjoy your unstable engine and transmission mounts and wiring gremlins kek

> of future potential hp gains.
yet the fastest rotary is faster than the fastest ls1

>port and polish a head is a $500 part from jegs

btw OP, are you using a stock trans or a custom driveshaft? what about the rear diff and hubs?

Valve springs, exhaust and a cam are though... Ugh why are you even here?