Heel and toe

Only matters on track day, bro. In normal driving, you don't need it.

>can't do it unless you're a manlet
Hadn't thought about this.
Am I fucked at 6'2 with size 13's?

>0 use on the street.
So when I'm breaking while approaching a stop light, I should break, downshift, break some more, downshift again, and repeat until I stop?

>busriders mad because they can't heeltoe effectively

Yeah probably, It's more about foot size than height though.

you breke until you're at the low point of that gear's rpm, then you press in the clutch and come to a stop.

if you don't come to a stop you pop it into a lower gear, rev match if necessary, and let the clutch out.

Just let off the gas ahead of time, brake as necessary and clutch in before you stop.

I'm OP, so no

I wear size 8 shoes and can heel toe like a mad man

If you have wide feet it's possible to do it with the sides of your foot but it's harder to rock your foot than to tip so you might want to get a bigass throttle pedal which helps a lot.

Jesus christ user, wash your shoes

Why not just put it on neutral and brake until you stop?

Side of your foot. I can 'heel toe' with my work boots on in my beater.

it's a meme and you for daily driving you won't gain anything (anything other than satisfaction, god it feels good when done right), but there is no harm in learning it.

it should be super useful on the track day. i'm too poor for this, but i'm playing racing sims and i improved since i started heel-toeing. Smoothness is super important.

Have you ever driven a manual and because the answer is no why are you posting in a thread like this?

Thats not what neutral is for.

No but from everything I've read it doesn't damage the car at all. So why not? If you need to speed back up you can just shift into the gear appropriate for the speed.

Yeah man You'll be fine

I do it all the time on my Alfa because it's got closely spaced pedals/I have wide feet and it's fun, also it's nice to downshift so smoothly passengers can't feel it.

I'm not sure how you reckon that it's harder to rock your foot sideways with your heel as a fulcrum than it is to hold your foot in midair and press both pedals.

>Skill less bus riders in this thread claiming it's a meme.
>Useful for like 2 corners on my commute to work

No you don't need to learn it, but it's a useful skill and fun to practice.

do it regular just for the fun it gives
god atleast being a manlet gave me this joy

leaving it in gear helps you slow down

This is true. Downshifting is key for a safe stop.

Then what the fuck is neutral for

If you're a fucking try hard then yeah go ahead and learn it, but it's only useful if you're
>a: stopping really hard
Or
>b: cornering really fast

Not pointless on a track for sure, but if you're not doing any racing then it's not necessary.

Are you both seriously that retarded?

It does have a use, but probably not for your grandad. I can do it, but pretty much only use it while I'm driving like an asshole.
>approach quiet roundabout way too fast
>heel toe to second gear, high rpm
>accelerate hard as soon as I can, bounce off limiter before shifting

i use it whenever im going into any corner, regardless of the environment.
obviously if youre just driving around the city its never gonna come handy.

btw if youre going 40 and a redlight appears in front of you, you just brake until 0 basically. alternatively you can brake, downshift/rev match so youll stay in gear if that makes you feel safer (actually usefull if you see a car behind you or something unsafe in front of you so you can still be in the powerband for any quick getaway)

heel toe generally is just for smooth corners, not necessary but sometimes just feels good

Doesn't engine braking wear out your engine? Why wear out something that's expensive as fuck and a pain in the ass to fix rather than using the cheap disposable pads that were designed exactly for that?

I only engine brake on long drives through hills where I'm concerned about brake pads overheating. Anyone engine braling to stop on flat surfaces outside of emergency situations probably does like 30 over the speed limit or likes pretending to be a truck driver

>engine spinning causes breakage

engine braking is awful and the mere sound and feel of it reveals its horrendous impact on your tranny.
rather just brake and rev match t b h

rather wear out brake pads than the tranny

>constantly dumping unnecessary/large loads onto your drivetrain doesnt wear it out

In the event of an emergency where you need to apply more throttle and you're adding an extra step between your reaction time and hitting the throttle. You should really only be in neutral at a stop

when you approach a stop put it in neutral downshift to first then when the light is green take off again. simple

Jesus christ Veeky Forums learn to drive.

Gears go up and down.
Changing down gears is an integral part of driving.
If you want to change down gears smoothly without riding your clutch you'll need to blip the throttle.
If you want to blip the throttle while breaking you'll need to heel-toe.

>approaching corner in 3rd -> lightly brake -> heel toe into second - > still lightly braking -> turn corner -> gently roll on throttle -> change up again
Or:
>approaching corner in 3rd -> brake lightly -> turn corner -> gently roll on throttle -> engine chugging and heaving -> realize your engines out of its powerband -> change down gear -> accelerate -> change up gear
Which one would you rather?

Or you know, just downshift into second gear

When?

After you brake to the proper speed

so you ride the clutch?

Yeah, for like 2 seconds, or, you know, put it in neutral?

>put it in neutral
Cunning plan but you have to drive off sooner or later and you're not going anywhere in neutral! So how do you put it into gear?
>ride the clutch for like 2 seconds
Well there you go; not smooth, wears the clutch and still wears the driveline. Learn to heel-toe, it's smoother and more gentle.

learn
youtube.com/watch?v=8etqDZL5abU

Yes engine braking is bad, but when you're Heel-Toe you're using your breaks and not adding load in to the drivetrain.

TLDRl; Heel-Toe is better than non rev matching downshifting

Here's what I would do.
>approach corner
>light braking
>turn corner and downshift to second at the same time (rev matching if course)
>drive away
No try hard heel toe, minimal engine wear, drive away in correct gear

>>approach corner
>>light braking
>>turn corner and downshift to second at the same time (rev matching if course)
>>drive away

or you can

>approach corner
>heel-toe
>drive away

>how do you put it in gear?

>depress clutch pedal
>select gear
>blip throttle
>release clutch pedal

>not smooth
>braking hard enough to effectively heel toe will still spill your drink
>also: what is rev matching

>wears the clutch and driveline
>people are actually more willing to burn gas and engine wear items than use their clutch for its intended purpose

Listen, when you heal-toe properly, the minimal wear incurred to the drivetrain is in the opposite direction to the normal wear. The components will need replaced from the normal wear before the heal-toe downshift wear. IIRC certain countries require drivers to not downshift and put the shifter into neutral while coming to a stop for their driving tests.

I'll take the one that gives less engine wear, thanks

so the latter? good choice.

>using the engine to absorb large amounts of energy
>less wear

Modern cars shut off the injectors when downshifting.

Brakes are doing all the work you fucking idiot.

Ok so you're braking, then releasing the brake and coasting in third, then coasting with the clutch in, then coasting in second, then driving away.
This isn't smooth but it's probably the best alternative to heel-toe.
>try hard heel toe
"try hard" is the insult used by losers to decry people who are better than them. If you're going to do anything in life why not "try hard" to do it as good as you possibly can?

Again this requires coast time between braking and accelerating, it's less smooth and it's never good to be applying different forces ( 3rd -> clutch -> 2nd) to the driving wheels, especially if the car is rear wheel drive, while turning.
If you do it before the turn than you have to brake, then coast, then turn, and that's not good either.

>braking hard enough to effectively heel toe will still spill your drink
Well if that's your experience obviously you're shit at it, I can heel to at any rate of braking and I do it all the time in day to day driving as smooth as you like.

Wrong.
Brakes are doing some of the work yes, but the engine is also slowing down the car.

You put it when ur idling in traffic or at traffic lights. You can also use it to cruise in light downhills to save gas, just put it in gear when you brake so you don't cook your brakes needlessly..

Are you fucking retarded or just pretending? do you know that you rev match when you Heel-Toe?

Yeah you rev match to a higher rpm than usual. Then engine break to a lower rpm, and repeat. Thus, the engine is working to slow the car down.

ok you're actually retarded.

You can heel-toe at any rpm mate.

When I was taking my driving licence I wasn't told anything about engine breaking I knew about it but never used it during the courses and even after that but since that one time where some fucking minivan stopped on a dime in the snow and I barely managed to not rear end him I started doing it
Ofc I dont need to anymore because I bought an auto and it engine brakes for me

This was useful for when my 3TC died at idle.

You'd be surprised that some automatics are also designed to be downshifted

Depends on how hard you're braking with the engine because if it's just regular downshifting or letting off the throttle then it's fine but if you're one of those retards that downshift at 6000 rpm then you will kill your transmission. Engine braking is essentially okay if used in conjunction with the regular brakes and don't let other retards fool you into thinking otherwise.

>Well there you go; not smooth, wears the clutch and still wears the driveline. Learn to heel-toe, it's smoother and more gentle.
Heel-toe only makes sense if you're at high speed and high revs and want to maintain the speed through the corner. At regular street driving the gear synchros will do the job.

>At regular street driving the gear synchros will do the job.
Do what job? Allow the gears to mesh together? That's what synchros do.
But thanks for showing you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

How are you going to match your engine rpm with your road speed?
A: Ride the clutch
B: Blip the throttle
The choice is yours, heel-toe is smoother at all speeds and rpm if done correctly.

If your synchros aren't fucked then there is no issue you moron and riding the clutch won't do anything bad. You're not gonna ride it for long anyway and blipping the throttle will maintain the revs and speed so it won't aid you in slowing down whereas riding the clutch will because you will reduce the engine revs.

>riding the clutch won't do anything bad
just stop

It won't you idiot, other than wearing the clutch which is not that bad compared to murdering your transmission if you mismatch the revs and just dump the clutch.

you only do this if you have to brake hard to a complete stop because doing that while in gear is going to wreck your shit.

but that is what I basically do (though I try to milk engine braking beforehand until it goes below 1.5k RPM) since there's no point downshifting to lower gears to milk engine braking that hard when brake pads are cheap as fuck and easier to replace compared to the gear synchronizers. It already grinds like 1% of the time I shift to 2nd gear, feels bad.

>using the clutch as a brake
That's just silly, you're both a bad driver and have little mechanical knowledge, although you appear to think you do.

Rev matching (done correctly) is the smoothest, gentlest, least damaging way to drive a manual and rev matching while braking is the smoothest way to rev match.
There's a reason classic racing drivers do it (they seldom bother now); because it's the smoothest way to drive and smooth = fast.

If you brake without pressing the clutch, you use two forces to brake which makes it easier. If you press the clutch or put it to neutral, you will only use brake pads which will make your braking longer.

Best way is to just press brake until your engine is about to stall and then just press the clutch to full stop with only the brakes.

>Rev matching (done correctly) is the smoothest, gentlest, least damaging way to drive a manual and rev matching while braking is the smoothest way to rev match.
Of course it is but you if you mismatch the gear they you will fuck your transmission. And the clutch. And in a low powered car the throttle blip just doesn't work and/or isn't worth it. On the street there's literally no point doing this shit.

At low revs, which is what you will be driving on the street, clutch braking is the best option.

i know that, my point is that if you're going to a complete stop like at a red light. Downshifting to a lower gear is pointless because engine braking for a few seconds is negligible. Brake pads are cheap as fuck and it's easy to check if they need to be replace. I want to avoid wearing the transmission with daily commuting even if I revmatch all the time.

obviously it's a different context entirely if you're going down a hill or if you're driving an 18-wheeler. But it's never about saving up on cheap brake pads, no one should be reluctant to use their brakes as needed in most cases!

and to add to this, if you're downshifting to a lower gear to engine brake to a complete stop in a few seconds, it makes even less sense compared to just braking right away. Not like anyone should be heel-toeing in daily commutes anyways.

If you're in a situation to engine-brake crawl to a stop since the road is clear and the red light is at least 5 seconds away, then be my guest.

>Of course it is but you if you mismatch the gear they you will fuck your transmission. And the clutch.
1. Don't mismatch
2. Mismatching is only a problem if you get the revs too high, if you get the revs too low it's no different to riding the clutch (only you ride less so it's actually better)
3. If you get the revs too high the jerking back and forth may not be good for your thrust bearings but it most certainly will not "fuck your transmission" and will put less wear on your clutch than not rev matching at all

>And in a low powered car the throttle blip just doesn't work and/or isn't worth it.
I've driven plenty of low powered cars and no, just fucking no.

>On the street there's literally no point doing this shit.
Unless you want to drive smoother.

>At low revs, which is what you will be driving on the street, clutch braking is the best option.
No it's not the best, it's not a bad alternative but heel-toe is the best.

>Downshifting to a lower gear is pointless because engine braking for a few seconds is negligible.
True. Although if you wanna brake hard from a high speed then this is superior. Plus you get to feel like a cool guy when you downshift.

Either way, I'd say that engine braking is actually safer. You don't have to rely only on the brakes. They wear down but you also have to deal with the temperatures they will be withstanding which might lead to the brakes suddenly failing on you. This had it's name but I can't recall it right now.

>I've driven plenty of low powered cars and no, just fucking no.
Just stop, user. With low powered cars the throttle blip isn't even a blip, and in that case it's just not even worth it.

>Unless you want to drive smoother.
You will not really drive that much smoother.

>2. Mismatching is only a problem if you get the revs too high, if you get the revs too low it's no different to riding the clutch (only you ride less so it's actually better)
If you mismatch you will jerk the car and that will either kill your clutch or the tranny if you connect too fast because of the differences in revs. You'll literally hammer the tranny if you mismatch.

It's a meme for daily driving, you only do it if you're driving a track car that you regularly rebuild.

Never fucking engine/shift brake, that shit kills transmissions and puts too much stress on the engine.

brake fade but in daily commutes, that should only be relevant if someone is riding the brakes the entire time going downhill, or just riding the brakes in general on an automatic car

>Just stop, user. With low powered cars the throttle blip isn't even a blip, and in that case it's just not even worth it.
1 litre 3 cyl Daihatsu Sirion? Excellent throttle response.
Too new? How about a 1979 Toyota Corolla 1.3 carb? Excellent throttle response.

>You will not really drive that much smoother.
So you admit that you will drive smoother? Finally you admit heel-toe is, in fact, the best.

>If you mismatch you will jerk the car and that will either kill your clutch or the tranny if you connect too fast because of the differences in revs. You'll literally hammer the tranny if you mismatch.
You know you can let the clutch out just as slowly as you do when you're not rev matching at all, making it no more "dangerous to your transmission" as your super-pro-best-ever clutch riding technique.

Stop talking as if you are an authority, you're not.

Not another one of you idiots....
If you don't engine brake, EVER, than how to you go from slowing down to speeding up again? You have to use the clutch to match the revs sooner or later and THAT WEARS THE DRIVELINE, heel-toe is the smoothest, least wearing way to do it.

>Not another one of you idiots

I'm a dealer mechanic you shitburger.

Rev matching to a higher gear when accelerating is completely different from downshifting to slow down, the amount of inner forces involved is magnitudes different.

Just use the fucking brake pads you smelly larpers, they were designed to be worn.

>dealer mechanic
Is that supposed to be a qualification? Dealer mechanics are the stupidest cunts in the world, never mind the terrible reputation you have - HOW STUPID DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO CHOSE MECHANICS AS YOUR OCCUPATION?

But since you're here;
How do you do without engine braking?

Is engine braking just not blipping the throttle when you downshift?

engine braking is any time you have your foot off the accelerator but the car is still in gear - the engine is slowing the car.
There are many ways to engine brake and riding the clutch is probably the worst.

>So you admit that you will drive smoother? Finally you admit heel-toe is, in fact, the best.
You will drive smoother and I said that, but the issue here is that it won't be that significant when you consider the risk of mismatching and killing your tranny.

>Too new? How about a 1979 Toyota Corolla 1.3 carb? Excellent throttle response.
Try a 1.6 Civic

>You know you can let the clutch out just as slowly as you do when you're not rev matching at all, making it no more "dangerous to your transmission" as your super-pro-best-ever clutch riding technique.
And ride the clutch slowly? What's the point of revmatching here again?

>And ride the clutch slowly? What's the point of revmatching here again?
It makes your point of "OMG REV MATCHING IS HUGE RISK GET IT WRONG ONCE AND BLOW YOUR TRANNY RAAAAAAAAA" moot.
You can rev match without risk if you're so shit that you think you might get it wrong.

Btw I've driving a 1.6 single cam Civic and it had even better throttle response than the Sirion.

Leaving it in neutral means you can't respond as quickly to a dangerous situation as you approach a stop, you don't benefit from engine braking, and you get worse fuel efficiency because when you are in gear and off throttle you are using 0 gas, but when you are in neutral and off throttle you are using a little gas to keep the engine turning.

>It makes your point of "OMG REV MATCHING IS HUGE RISK GET IT WRONG ONCE AND BLOW YOUR TRANNY RAAAAAAAAA" moot.
But your revs will drop if you let go of the clutch slowly so no point revmatching.

Jesus christ, user you're dense as hell.

>Btw I've driving a 1.6 single cam Civic and it had even better throttle response than the Sirion.
Yeah I'm sure if you blip the throttle it'll go right to the 7000 rpm from the lower revs.