/4ccg/ - Crashing down edition

fuck this doujin

But it is what new autopilots are going to be.
They won't play if there is no board interest.

>free points vs a guaranteed top 16 result
Give me Manager FC every time.

>go back to our roots and focus on the cup being a level playing field for the purpose of entertainment
It should be one export at the start of the cup, and pick a preset at kickoff and you're done. Managers are in charge of maintain the roster and aesthetics. No more mindgames, no more tactical jeens, no more dick waving.

reposting
Wiki news: Over the long weekend I plan on moving the wiki to a new server. I am aware that the vgl quals are on so I'll try to work around those and minimize any disruption. The old server will be put into read-only mode and the new wiki will be accessible via the temporary URL of rigged4.cc (thanks drdtroit for letting me use this). You might receive emails from rigged4.cc instead of implyingrigged.info for a little while. After the data is migrated and the old wiki locked, we'll move the domain name over, however this process can take time, there's no sure-fire way to know when implyingrigged.info will point to the old or new server for everyone (hence the other, temporary URL for now). Just keep visiting implyingrigged.info and only go to rigged4.cc if you see the "this is the old server" banner I'll put up. Remember, all wiki content will be migrated, so you won't need to register a new account, all pages will moved across so no data will be lost.
IRC will be kept on the old server for now, if you use mibbit you'll be fine, otherwise make sure your IRC client connects to 50.116.23.163 OR implyingrigged.org (a backup domain name we have for the old/current server).
I'll make more noise about this later and as it's happening, hopefully this won't interfere with the VGL too much. If there are any issues I'll be on IRC or you can email me ([email protected]).

It's a matter of perspective. I think Lear should go, but board interest really should only be a factor when there are more active teams than can fit into a babby. If you can fit everybody, then it doesn't really matter if a team has one fan or 500.

Sure, if you have to cull teams, then looking at something like board interest might be a good deciding factor. Problem is, you can't prove board interest. You can only provide evidence, all of which can easily be faked. That why using that as the basis for the cull was a mistake and led to stupid, biased decisions.

Board support is a fairy tale that goes and comes based on success and good timing. There are so few teams that were actually build by their own boards. Most boards begin with a merc, the actual support came later.
Of course people get salty if an NPC board like /wg/ wins a cup and undeservingly so, perhaps. But the true merit of a team lies in whether it's fun to watch. /wg/ was fun to watch before it dropped. /sp/ is doing the reverse meme and only still lives because a handful people want it to and got involved enough. The rest is hype because of the name and wavin' your flag. Its actual boards support is laughable.

Make a event that portrays Veeky Forums culture well and is fun to watch. Don't measure board labor that is easily faked, twisted, and at odds with moderation and timing.

Fucking this.

>Suddenly people defending Mercs F.C. when /wg/ is in danger.
Trip on Lear.

You're being obtuse. Nobody is defending mercs.

>Fans don't matter!
>Most boards being with a merc!
>Fans are a myth, they just follow memes!
>Nobody is supporting mercs, you are just paranoid!
Put
Your
Trip
On
Lear

who /wsr/ here

who /j/ here

who /l/ here

who done here

This is bullshit, /t/ was a fun team to watch during Spring and qualifiers, unlike /wg/.
There is no reason for /t/ to get the cull and /wg/ to stay alive.
#Justice4Pirates
#Funmatters
#OnlygoodCorgiisadeadCorgi

>Lear culls fanless teams
>suddenly Lear is now defending fanless team
/4ccg/, you worry me sometimes

Fuck Lear.

Now that that's out of the way, simmer down and think with your brain instead of your butt for a second. I agree, philosophically, basing cup participation on board interest is a good idea if your primary concern is weeding out mercs and you've ruled out removing all managers. I agree 100%.

But just because it's a good idea in theory doesn't mean it's a good idea in practice. With Veeky Forums banning cup threads and boards being different sizes and speeds, it is basically impossible to prove board interest or even measure it meaningfully. Everything you could use as a measure of board interest can (and has been on occasions) faked by a dedicated merc.

If you can't actually, in reality, use board interest as the basis for a team being in and out, then you're doomed to creating asinine rules and procedures when you try that piss people off by killing innocent teams. The cull was an example.

I like lear

>Lear never defended /w/ and /wg/
/4ccg/, you worry me sometimes.

Ok, stop thinking with you massive bias for a second and answer this.
Why should /wg/ stay but /t/ get removed?

Lear a shit, but we can all agree he has a lickable tummy.

Because at no point in the cup's history did /t/ have fans. They literally entered the cup on the backdoor, without proving once their interest.

Ah, you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I'm not being biased.

I'm not defending /wg/. I agree that, based on what /merit/ has said, /w/ and /wg/ should get the axe. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. My beef with Lear is precisely that he was biased in implementing the rule he created.

At the same time, I'm saying the cull rules are stupid and never should've happened. If you're going to cull teams, it should be handled very differently.

Hope that helps. Have a good afternoon, user.

Literally everything you say applies to /w/ and /wg/.
>B-but muh bandwagoners
I liked bandwaggon /t/ too but people pretend I don't exist, fuck off you double standard Leaf.

Not the guy you replied to, but this is exactly why I think viewers matter more than "board interest." The cup is made for watching. If a team is entertaining, that's good enough reason to have them in the cup. /t/ will never have a measurable board following, but they're fun as fuck to watch unlike /w/, I don't like /wg/ either but I admit others do because of Cunt Destroyer and the goal horn . Just take measures if you can to discourage mercs, something the cull rules don't accomplish.

>If you're going to cull teams, it should be handled very differently.
Well, how would you handle it? What would you use as a base to delete what teams over what other teams?
Come on user, don't just say "This was bad and was totally better ways to do it" without actually saying what

Post your predictions for today's matches.

>King Lear is online

>viewers
You mean the ones pulled from reddit or whatever horsefucker site? Yes. Quite. Truly the kind of people we should cater to.

There's matches?

You rather cater to the 40 people sitting here in this thread than 2000+ people of which a few *might* be from Reddit? You are the true circlejerk redditor, user.

The argument also invites more Merc F.C. because who cares if is attention whoring as long as its fun in the pitch? Or not even that, you will have some bandwaggoners even if your team is shit and is full of tripfag friends as long as you have a catchy goalhorn.

If you have to cull teams, and "have to" really can only mean there are two many teams to fit into the babby/elite structure, then I'd base it on viewer interest instead of board interest. Faking posts in a thread using mobile is exponentially easier than faking viewer response to something like the poll they ran a few weeks ago. Not a perfect solution, but it would be easier to implement in a way that's fair to everyone and isn't complicated by Veeky Forums mods. Just do the poll regularly so teams can cycle in and out as needed to keep things fresh.

If the cup can fit all the teams, then don't cull any. Why bother? It just breeds animosity when left to the discretion of people who have obvious bias.

>horsefuckers only watch /mlp/ then leave
>the viewer numbers are always inflated by horsefuckers
:thinking:

Not him, but you're just as bad as him for trying to throw le leddit boogeyman around.

/wtg/ is going to bomb

>then I'd base it on viewer interest instead of board interest
Because that doesn't invite to rigging at all.

Not him, but let me try. Keep in mind this is just the 'second worst concept'. It's still flawed, will still create drama... but it's better than what we have now.

1) Accept that a team is designed by (at most) a handful of people that may or may not represent the board well. At least until the team gains a following from its own board that gets angry at things that are wrong. This is also in line with Veeky Forums culture, where it's more likely someone posts because they disagree rather than because they want to put in an effort.

2) Accept that you can't measure a board following if it's to be expected to be in the double digits at most. You can't pit them fairly against each other, and their viewers don't put a dent into the overall viewer count even on a slow day. Most people watch the cup as a whole, anyway.

3) Instead, create team tiers based on some consensus. This consensus should be about 'will people have fun seeing this team play?', not just 'does it have board support?'. This means fun to watch, solid roster, good aesthetics, no circlejerk/attentionwhoring/tripfagging bullshit, and hype goalhorns. The whole package. This concept will piss off people with the /myteam/ mentality, but e.g. fuck /int/ when they showed up to a cup with PLACEHOLDER faces only while other teams had to sit the cup out.
Anyway, these tiers decide how 'safe' a team is. If we are short on streamers or other things, the low tier smight not get their fetus or mega babby spot. Those pots are re-evaluated after every cup.

4) Make managers less important. The major reason why Merc F.C. is a meme is because all it takes to keep a board alive is to upload an export from the previous cup winner and slap a kit together. This shit can't fly anymore. If that ultimately means to give the merc powers to /aesco/ rather than managers, than I still say it's a better deal than the current one.

5) Don't cull teams, just let them rot in the low tiers that get an invitational at most.

His argument is retarded and reeks of secret club mentality though

You have to think outside the circlejerk, user. You and I know who manages which teams, but the vast majority of the viewers don't even know what a manager is or what game the cup plays for that matter. Viewers know the streamers, the regular commentators, and the teams. Aesthetics and team variety are consistently the most highly rated things in the cup when viewers are polled. From their perspective, it doesn't matter who manages /t/ or whether /t/ even has a manager as long as /t/ gets to play.

For those of us in the circlejerk because we have no lives, yeah manager FC is a bad thing. /merit/ should discourage that, but I'm telling you that trying to nail down board interest won't accomplish that. It's not possible and it's not fair to the teams who do have native fans but whose board's mods are more zealous than the mods of other boards.

Less rigging than a poll with 12 expected answers.

I said it wasn't perfect, but it invites much less rigging than putting a tiny thread in the archive and having half a dozen of your buddies answer a poll. The scale of viewer polls makes them much more reliable than the metrics /merit/ proposed work the culling.

Once you move past finding a perfect solution, you can get to work looking for a good solution. The cull wasn't a good solution.

I wasn't trying to be his advocate, just do try to remember that "Secret Club Mentality" has been this site's M.O. since 2003.

>You have to think outside the circlejerk, user.
And you have to think with a brain because we have multiple boards know for raiding and rigging polls. You think the moment one of those polls are actually important won't have people trying to rig it?

Reminder than according to /merit/ poll on the last day, /t/ has more fans than /adv/, Veeky Forums, /gif/, /i/, /out/, /p/, Veeky Forums, /trv/, /wsg/ and /y/

I was jerking off during the poll, it doesn't count.

Well that's rude.

Outside the biggest teams, teams with say 50 dedicated followers are giants in the 4CC. We're talking about polling an audience of 1,000-2,000 people. Even if somehow people from a specific team attempted to rig it, their influence would be a drop in the bucket. And, again, faking enough votes to swing a poll that size, restricted by IP or something else, open for a few minutes is much much much much much more difficult than rigging a poll with a dozen responses on a good day that's open for a day or longer. I think you have a valid concern, but an overblown one, especially in light of your preferred strategy, which is even more vulnerable to the kind of rigging you're concerned about by an order of magnitude.

>Lear came online on Skype earlier today
>Went back offline within 5 minutes, presumably under the weight of a dozen people asking him to be accountable for his decisions

What boards are you referring to? The boards "known for raiding" are the "big" ones anyway.

Plus, you're saying that we couldn't have polls because there are teams that have no fans but do have people devoted enough to rig a poll so it looks like they do? It's harder to rig a poll that takes place over a short period of time and has high response count than it is to rig proof of interest in a thread. That other user is right.

In case anybody thought it was a meme, Lear seriously should step down. Get somebody competent or burn it all down, but get rid of him.

>If after one week the 4CCC fails to elect a new host, the deposed host reassumes their position as host

Is this what happened, they voted out Lear and then oh shit, not PMB , anything but PMB, and Lear got back in

Small market teams like Veeky Forums and /t/ have many more proven fans among viewers then they can possibly prove with board threads or board polls. Big market teams like /a/ and /mlp/ have lots of fans either way, but the gap is WAY bigger if you ignore viewers and focus only on board cup activity.

Reminder literally the only reason not to poll viewers to decide cup participation is if you're a big market shill that hates fun.

/w/ and /wg/ had actual threads with actual replies in the past, and/or polls. Not at this moment, true. But they did once. That's what separates them from /t/.
>yeah but /w/ and /wg/ are nofans now, they should be deleted
Perhaps, that's not what I'm talking about now. What I'm talking about is /t/ never having had an actual fan once. Ever.

By the way Veeky Forums Qualifiers in two and a half hours

I am going to use the poll done at the end of the cup since it follows your
>poll that size, restricted by IP or something else, open for a few minutes
To a T.
>teams with say 50 dedicated followers are giants in the 4CC.
No team broken 40 votes as primary fans, biggest was 30, secondary fans is tricky to count because you could vote a good number of teams instead of just one, not to mention people bandwaggon some teams for the silliest reasons (including "I like the music")
>Even if somehow people from a specific team attempted to rig it, their influence would be a drop in the bucket.
Most teams in the poll only got between 0 and 5 primary fans, the "drop in the bucket" is literally all you need from turning one team from "fanless" to "mid market" according to the poll

And then you have people saying the poll was rigged because it was done without warning and open only a short time. That from a poll that influences nothing. Now imagine the shitstorm if it actually decided what teams to cull.

It never came to a vote. PMB intended those rules to restrict his own power as part of his pitch, but in the end /merit/ told Lear they'd keep him if he added the new rules to the rules page as a compromise. Wala, Lear stayed but /merit/ got some power to keep him in check. PMB got cucked in the end anyway, but they have never attempted the no confidence vote. It's a last resort measure.

>Wala
Go study some French faggot.

>sticking Veeky Forums and /t/ in the same pot
now I kinda agree with your point, but you're really stretching it

>Most teams in the poll only got between 0 and 5 primary fans, the "drop in the bucket" is literally all you need from turning one team from "fanless" to "mid market" according to the poll
If you base it on primary support, yes.

I wouldn't do it that way. Either get rid of the primary/secondary split or make the secondary vote count for something like in an earlier thread where primary votes get 3 points and secondary votes get 1.

You do the poll without announcing the exact time to help prevent rigging. That part was done right. I'd announce the poll was going to happen during the cup, and that's it. Enough info to let fans know to stick around and vote, but not enough to facilitate easy rigging. Change the time each cup to make it unpredictable and to capture different time zones each time. Still not perfect, but way more fool proof than a board straw poll where you and your buddies can "prove" interest.

>/t/
>any kind of market
Lifelongs raus.

>not recognizing Veeky Forums's most cherished meme

Veeky Forums had 5 primary fans and the higest secondary fags in the poll with 106
/t/ only had 1 primary fan and 12 secondaries.
Compared to the main cancer three:
/a/ had 24 fans and 95 secondaries
/mlp/ had 30 fans and 42 secondaries
/sp/ had 15 fans and 67 secondaries

To be fair a lot of /sp/ fans would only watch matches that /sp/ plays in

And a lot of /a/ probably let after the group stage.

this is not gonna go anywhere again, is it?
I mean it has not been going anywhere for about six threads by now.

I'm gonna check in on this next month or so when it has finally collapsed in on itself, because this is really starting to get stale.

What did you want from your 4cc off-season? We'll get to page 9 eventually, don't worry.

>only watch matches that /sp/ plays in
Which means they are totally irrelevant for this kind of poll.

I'm hopeful that once the VGL games start in about 2 hours that it will, at least while it's live, stop the dang dramaposting

well i mean, vgl starts today, so the thread will have something else

but Lear, we wont forget, youll get your birthday punchies when you fucking come back, no backsies

>make the secondary vote count for something like in an earlier thread where primary votes get 3 points and secondary votes get 1.
Fun fact: this will mean /u/ is bigger market that /sp/.

You're proving my point. Small market teams do have fans. Less than big markets, but we knew that. The point was that you can measure that fan reaction with a viewer poll in a way that is more meaningful and more fair than looking for threads on boards that don't allow them and where an autist with a smart phone can pretend to be multiple people. It helps level the playing field.

The other nice thing about viewer polls: the results don't cater to the commissioner's whims and biases. Measuring "board interest" is impossible without appealing to the commissioner's discretion, which you better believe is subject to his whims and biases. Hello.

VGL soon.

>Lear quits
>/4ccg/ stops demanding that he quit
Wow it's like magic!

Only until Lear steps down.

That actually makes sense desu, it isn't 2012 anymore.

lol who the fuck cares about vgl?

(•_•)
CARES
/ \

(•_•)
ABOUT VGL
/ \

I noticed how you are ignoring the accusations of the poll being rigged, probably because it doesn't help you way of thinking.

More like
>Lear quits
>Lear supporters come out of the woodwork and drag this discussion even longer

>Lear supporters
You mean Lear himself.

No, he's ignoring them because "people could rig it" is more of a flaw for the currently used system of looking for board threads.

I didn't ignore them. I replied like three times.

I probably used words that were too big. Here. Viewer poll could have little rigging. Board poll could have big rigging. Rigging bad. Little rigging not good, but big rigging worse.

Me not like rigging.

You lost me.

Could you say it again, but take the dick out of your mouth first?

When talking about members in /merit/, we need to consider 5 important questions, so let's try answering them for Lear:

>What power have you got?
He can do anything he wants as long as he is able to hide enough of the truth from the rest of /merit/.
>Where did you get it from?
From the last commissioner.
>In whose interests do you exercise it?
In his own interest, as we've quite clearly seen.
>To whom are you accountable?
/4ccg/ tries to hold him accountable, but realistically he only considers /merit/.
>How can we get rid of you?
Barring a miracle, he has to resign.

Are you happy with the current state of affairs?

The better option is the one with the least potential rigging.

Viewer polls are subject to less potential rigging than board polls.

Therefore, viewer polls are the better option.

Is this thing on? I know you're meming. The other thing is Veeky Forums mods can't tilt the results of a viewer poll because they can't hot pocket it. Board polls are absolutely skewed by the mods. This is another big consideration, because the teams most hurt by mods are the small markets. Culling by "proving" board interest is like asking teams to fight each other to the death to make the cut, but you make them fight in an arena full of landmines. It's not fair, because the results reflect who survived by pure chance more than anything else.

Just for fun based in 3 points for primary fan, 1 for secondary fan have some random teams
167 for /a/
138 for /u/
132 for /mlp/
121 for Veeky Forums
115 for /m/
112 for /sp/
99 for /co/
67 for /c/
49 for Veeky Forums
45 for /wg/
26 for /w/
21 for Veeky Forums
15 for /t/
15 for /3/
15 for /i/
9 for /gif/
7 for Veeky Forums
4 Boris favorite team /hr/

I do, fag.
Fight me.

You do sound like a fag.

Lear apologists, I just want to point out that although /4ccg/ is always going to have SOME base level of shitposting in it, this is way more than background noise, and people are backing it up with facts and hard data. Obviously people are going to be upset for the sake of being upset, but if Lear had addressed it like a man, he could have sat back and let the rest of the shitposting peter out. Instead, the first moment he feels /merit/ isn't a rubber stamp for whatever he wants to do at a given time, he throws a tantrum and takes his ball home. That's your commissioner, that's the guy you're trying to defend.