Double Eagle

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Guess what's happening on E-bay right now.

ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=double eagle&_sop=16

All urls found in this thread:

ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=double eagle&_sop=16
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_counterfeiting
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_money

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=double eagle&_sop=16

BINS listing
opens item not as described case 1hr after delivery
ebay forces seller to accept return
sends back pic related with the case scotch taped closed

at least they get chocolate out of it

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

wait people pay 19k for 1 ounce of "gold"?

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

rare coins mang

collectors can be nuts.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

also 349,995 =/= 19,000

Skullbone
Skullbone

Coins were always a meme. I'm so glad we got plastic/paper bills now, paper bill will never be worth more than they are.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

there were some for 19 idk its insane its 10% fucking copper for fucks sake!

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

And for some reason people get all up in arms about the idea of women on our currency as if its some unprecedented concept.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

how hard would be to forge one of these? material cost about 1k right? need a sample and a cnc machine and some rough tumbling...

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

bamp?

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Yup because there clearly ain't people collecting paper bills...or stamps for the matter...
Actually at least when collecting gold you can always get some of your investment back and it's price ain't moronically high unless you go for ultra rare shit (was buying bullion dealer had no 20 gram bars,gave 3 1912 coins instead and sold them at gold content value,and some coins are sold at 5%spot or less even if hundreds year old.

takes2long
takes2long

counterfeit coins is a thing

google it, its very interesting. theres a few counterefits that are so good they literally cannot be pulled out of circulation because theres too many and theyre too perfect (one is an "omega" coin, forget what coin its copying, but the only sign its a fake is he added an omega symbol thats so small you basically have to use a magnifying glass to identify it)

theres been various counterfeit coins throughout history, some of its down right baffling

I used to think "you should be able to re-create copies of coins so perfect no one can tell the difference" - turns out I was right.

There's also a shit ton of easier to tell coins as well

Thing is when you start talking about 350k in value you're going to be seeing a lot of paperwork and due diligence on the buyers side, at least I'd expect to.

iluvmen
iluvmen

You should probably go to reddit

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

You cant totally fake a 150 year old coin, maybe a brand new coin (see chinese silver/gold pandas) but even then the right person could tell it apart

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

the right person could tell it apart
usually all you need to spot a counterfeit is a scale.

an XRF spectrometer will wipe out most counterfeits too. As will a good set of calipers.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

$300k coin
$25 shipping
fucking jews man

SniperWish
SniperWish

I second this motion.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

if it were real and that rare the govt wouldnt sell it dumb ass

Nojokur
Nojokur

wtf so they just ship these things through the mail? imagine if it went to the wrong address or something.

Methnerd
Methnerd

No, you can't get that much insurance through USPS.

more likely private courier and armored car hand delivering to your bank. But you have to put something down for ebay.

SniperWish
SniperWish

i'm not talking about fakes like that dude the content and dimensions would be perfect, the premium on the coin is so great that gold is the least concern.

RumChicken
RumChicken

the content and dimensions would be perfect
coins struck for circulation aren't pure gold.

you can't get the alloy perfect. Even if you melted real coins to make your fake the alloy would change. Mints usually use proprietary mixes for their planchets, and secret processes to produce their alloys.

The only way you'd be able to pass the alloy test is if you built dies for your fake and then used them to strike over a less valuable coin. But then you have size, thickness, and strike problems.

The best counterfeits just take a cheap version of the coin and modify it to become an expensive one. Like shaving an O mint mark into an S, or welding on a different date over a shaved one. There's lots of that out there, but people know what to look for so those tend to get scrapped pretty quick. Extremely valuable dates and mint marks spend a lot of time under the microscope to make sure nobody is pulling any fuckery.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

coins struck for circulation aren't pure gold.
exactly that is why i said the material cost would be around $1000 because it's 10% copper. i can buy gold like that from any jeweler or make it myself with a little research.

Even if you melted real coins to make your fake the alloy would change.
nah
Mints usually use proprietary mixes for their planchets, and secret processes to produce their alloys.
these are old coins and all that matters is that a ray gun shows the right composition.

TechHater
TechHater

strike problems
yeah than god we can just avoid that altogether.

eGremlin
eGremlin

i can buy gold like that from any jeweler or make it myself with a little research.
nobody yet has perfected the process for US coins anyways. Well, other than the mint.

even an old ray gun will pick up the tiny differences, and that's a problem. The mint has had a couple hundred years to perfect its process. They're pretty damn good at it by now.

The chemical they use to purify gold leaves a distinct fingerprint by itself, and nobody in private industry has been able to copy it last I read.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

you are lying alloys are not magic you either know the composition or don't if you do you can recreate it easily.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

you could definitely pass a counterfeit to someone that doesn't have the equipment or knowledge to test it, but those sorts of people don't usually spend tons of money on untested coins.

JunkTop
JunkTop

if you do you can recreate it easily.
again, the process they use to purify the metal leaves a chemical signature, and that process isn't known by anyone in the public or industry. We know what chemical they use, but nobody else has managed to duplicate the process.

The problem is one of tolerances, if you're off by a fraction of a percent it's going to be noticed. And you will be.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

We know what chemical they use, but nobody else has managed to duplicate the process.
this only applies to gold.

their methods of mixing silver are well understood.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

again, the process they use to purify the metal leaves a chemical signature
too bad the ray gun only shows a dozen of metals the common alloying metals and platinum groups it doesn't show everything even if you were not a lying cunt. also we are talking about coins made in 1883.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

if you're off by a fraction of a percent it's going to be noticed.
too bad the ray guns margin of error is more than that. you won't get the same values from testing the same sample twice stop lying you nigger!

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

it doesn't show everything
you couldn't perfect the mix either way. And they don't do a straight melt, they use annealing to produce a consistent alloy. You can't do that.
even if you were not a lying cunt
kek
we are talking about coins made in 1883.
Yes, I know. By that time the mint had well over 100 years experience making gold coins. They were doing things with gold clear back then that people today still can't copy.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Yes, I understand you've never used an XRF scanner. Or if you did it was 15 years ago.

Nojokur
Nojokur

you couldn't perfect the mix either way. And they don't do a straight melt, they use annealing to produce a consistent alloy. You can't do that.
and you can't check it especially in the protective packaging. jesus.
They were doing things with gold clear back then that people today still can't copy.
they probably jizzed in it someone should try it out.
i saw multiple vids and looked up the specs on a few. they don't detect shit except a few metals and they can't get a consistent read on the same piece either.
not that is surprises me i worked with ir spectrometers i know how their reads can be fucked up by the simplest things.

Illusionz
Illusionz

and you can't check it especially in the protective packaging. jesus
getting it into one of those PCGS slabs requires submitting it to their lab for verification. If you can make a coin that fools the best experts in the world you've done an impressive trick.

they can't get a consistent read on the same piece either.
all you need is one contaminant consistently showing up. And being off even slightly will also mess up the weight and SG.

more importantly they'd detect the one major chemical adulterant found in all US gold, something you probably can't copy.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

btw an xrf scanner would make whole percentage mistakes on lighter "mystery" elements like C Si Fe and stuff like that not fractional differences like on heavy metals.

that is how i know you are a lying cunt that makes stuff up.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

all you need is one contaminant consistently showing up.
yeah on an old coin that can be on the surface it doesn't prove a god damn thing. and fortunately if you buy investment grade gold and copper the contaminant ratios will be nigh undetectable by handheld scanners.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

And being off even slightly will also mess up the weight
oh jesus just shut up already you can't just come in here and start raping physics too!

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

an xrf scanner would make whole percentage mistakes
The only one I've ever used doesn't.

you're correct about not getting the same reading twice, but I've only tested it on native metals, not coins. I'd guess it depends on what's contaminating the surface. OP's coin there doesn't have anything contaminating it most likely. Maybe some atmospheric mercury.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

something you probably can't copy.
listen dude listen very carefully because this is important: if anyone wanted to fake one of these coins he would get a real one and run it through the same tests he runs through his fakes and if the numbers are off he would just go refine his process.

you are a dumb fucking kid who thinks science is magic metallurgy is magic and alloys are magic and the error margin on measurements is nonexistent and that individual coins especially made 200 years ago show zero deviation to weight and dimensions to each other.

all of which is outright lunacy. i don't even have words to express my disbelief anyone can be this retarded.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

copper, silver, and gold all have the same density and specific gravity!
it's physics!

if you get the weight right the SG or size will be off. If you get the size right the weight and SG will be off.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

he would just go refine his process.
the process is unknown.

you can't refine it, you can't even do it.
if you could, the equipment would cost more than any coin you could expect to produce.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

no i said the density difference won't be measurable on fractional content because the error margin on each measurements is significantly higher than your difference to theoretical values. that is why i'm saying you are raping physics with your fantasies. also you can recreate golds specific density with a metal mix i have already posted the calculations about that in an other thread. so density won't help you determining content especially if there are more than two alloying elements but not even with two unknown to be honest. if you know which two is used then you can run the equation with accurate enough measurements. with 3 or more it's fucked.

you can't refine it, you can't even do it.
you can reinvent anything especially some dumb fucks tinkered with 200 years ago in your garage.

but there is one thing i don't know how to replicate well enough well two things to be perfectly honest without exactly replicating their process of manufacture which is a hassle. the face hardness of gold especially gold copper alloy would change from the striking process. if i want to form them abrasively i can get as accurate as i want in theory it still won't be the same metal. and the other is the tarnish. 200 yo tarnish especially if the coin was in sea water for long and cleaned up i would have to research and try a fuckton to get is semi right.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

some dumb fucks tinkered with 200 years ago in your garage.
you're grossly underestimating the sophistication of the US mint even then.
the other is the tarnish
which is largely an artifact of their technology.

it would be much easier to counterfeit the PCGS slab than a gold coin that would survive lab analysis.

King_Martha
King_Martha

well if the only way my counterfeits can be busted if they get them out of the protective packaging i would be deeply satisfied with the results to be honest. let's face it most wouldn't.

i don't think i ever took a gold piece out of packaging and i only buy bullion not numismatics.

viagrandad
viagrandad

regarding face hardness you'd get it by striking your coin with a die, just like they did.

a cast copy isn't going to pass visual inspection, you'd have to strike a planchet. The problem is with extremely rare coins all the dies are known based on tiny variations and flaws. So your new dies aren't going to pass unnoticed.

also the crystal structure of your melt will be wrong, though I don't know of any lab that checks that. For that matter I don't think any lab checks hardness.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

let's face it most wouldn't.
depends on the value.

PCGS and NGC will both crack open their slabs and re-authenticate coins. People that spend serious money on coins likely pay for that service pretty often.

something worth a couple grand may never get checked, but then you won't be making nearly what it would cost to fake them.

w8t4u
w8t4u

a cast copy
i was thinking a near micron accurate cnc machining and some deliberate tumbling smoothing off and giving it a used look then build an artificial / accelerated tarnish. even with a microscope you would have hard time to tell let alone with a simple magnifier.

something worth a couple grand may never get checked, but then you won't be making nearly what it would cost to fake them.
yeah that sadly makes sense, the economy of scale and the level of scrutiny would probably not allow for profit margins in general you would have to find gullible fools like with most counterfeiting.

Inmate
Inmate

crystal structure
that's an other interesting problem but i would assume the coins get annealed before struck so they can get reliable smooth results. if not they can develop some very interesting structures possibly even unique to the section of a mint they were made in. temperature levels how long they stayed there how fast they were cooled before pouring were they rolled into plate and then struck out or molded to size etc.
did they even machine strike these in 1883 or they just screw pressed them?

idontknow
idontknow

Just figuring out how to tarnish them convincingly could make you millions. Cleaned antique coins sell for much less than uncleaned ones. So you could buy cleaned coins, tarnish them, and sell at a considerable premium.

I have had some success in the past toning gold coins with dilute sulphuri acid followed by baking at 450 degrees for a couple hours. The guy at the coin shop knew the toning was fake the instant he looked at it though.

likme
likme

did they even machine strike these in 1883 or they just screw pressed them?
The US was machine striking coins before the Constitution was written.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

you cant totally fake a 150 year old coin

you're arguing proven facts are impossible.

this kind of shit has happened to coins ranging across all dates. srsly just do a quick google and you'll find out all kinds of crazy shit people have actually done related to coin counterfeiting.

coins dating all the way back to roman empire etc have been faked.

Now, if you're arguing "100% indistinguishable" that's a different story alltogether. there have been many coins that have been perfectly replicated and are *still* in circulation to this day. there is a large amount of silver quarters in US rotation that are not authentic and no one knows for sure where they came from. They assume it was china trying to sell off their gold easier because the fakes were even made out of the correct silver

on the other hand, other coins have been made were even painted to match the coloring of the authentic coins, and a large amount of fake currency in general can be sorted out due to flaws

more often than not its distinguishable, but thats by no means a solid rule across all fakes.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

to expand a bit from

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_counterfeiting
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_money

TreeEater
TreeEater

The mint eventually insisted on a low-relief version, as the high-relief coin took up to eleven strikes to bring up the details and did not stack correctly for banking purposes.

lol not even the mint was able to strike the coins to the same dimensions.

Evilember
Evilember

lol not even the mint was able to strike the coins to the same dimensions.
hit it 11 times to get the same dimensions

JunkTop
JunkTop

they couldn't that's the point. they hit it 11 times to get the detail on the face out in full.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

they couldn't get the detail on the face out in full.
they hit it 11 times to get the detail on the face out in full.

whereismyname
whereismyname

yes and hitting it 11 times made them not stack up properly meaning the coins were uneven by gross dimensions.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

ah, I see what you're thinking.

no, the coins weren't uneven, the face was higher than the rim so they don't stack. Like trying to stack marbles. They were all exactly the same dimensions.

girlDog
girlDog

How much money do you think you could get for a (((counterfeit coin)))) made in the ((((1890s))))).
If they are known counterfeit but also old they have to be very rare.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

no, the coins weren't uneven, the face was higher than the rim so they don't stack
that's just awful deign then and has nothing to do with the detail.

RumChicken
RumChicken

counterfeiting counterfeit coins
i like your thinking user.

hairygrape
hairygrape

I make have my living collecting and reselling coins, especially gold. They might be good enough to fool the average idiot like yourself but not a trained professional. the problem isnt really "more counterfeits" its less experienced "experts" Anyone with a gram scale, google and a jewelers loupe thinks they can tell a counterfeit these days

Take gold pandas for instance, over here in the united states a counterfeit might be considered A- and almost perfect, but that same coin could be a weasely C+ to a good Chinese numerist. there are many grades of fake coins but they are only fooling the people who dont really know what to look for.

and to clarifye im talking about REAL coins that are worth while to counterfit, you can make 1000 silver quarters the problem is no ones really checking because its small fish.

RumChicken
RumChicken

Its impossible to fake real toning, at least to an expert

hairygrape
hairygrape

They might be good enough to fool the average idiot like yourself but not a trained professional

i never claimed to know dick about coins, I have no interest in grandpas stamp collecting hobby either, that make me an idiot too? I do however know a fair amount about various forms of counterfeiting due to research across various other niches, and coins are no exception to the practice.

and to clarifye im talking about REAL coins that are worth while to counterfit, you can make 1000 silver quarters the problem is no ones really checking because its small fish.

FYI I'm only talking about the ones I'm right about! All the ones that can be faked well dont count!

I'm impressed with the level of autism you showed here, gj

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

shouldn't be it's all chemistry in the end.
people said stupid shit like it's impossible for metal ships to float or impossible for a man to fly.
we just don't know how to tarnish gold yet.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

and by tarnish gold i mean gold alloys because pure gold doesn't give much fucks about most things.

Inmate
Inmate

If it was Ivanka i'd be okay with it

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