Higher minimum wage ->

TreeEater
TreeEater

Higher minimum wage ->

More spending power beyond bare necessities, money gets actually saved for bigger purchases rather than quick fixes (alcohol, drugs) ->

Higher level of demand in products creates more demand for labor and creates more jobs ->

Innovative enterprises have an easier time to get off the ground, traditional businesses profit from higher consumption ->

Higher national utility and happiness overall

So why do people oppose raising the minimum wage again?

All urls found in this thread:

xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/kidd/thesis/pdf/protocols.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=o2EA_vycLD4

Skullbone
Skullbone

i support minimum wage increasing with inflation since its pretty high atm

thats about it though

DeathDog
DeathDog

I think we should raise it to around $100 an hour.
That way, everyone can stay connected with current tech, buy homes, and contribute to worthy charities.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Raising the minimun wage will mean that the worth of your labour is raised without the quality of your labour being raised. So you are earining more than you deserve. And if yo are earning more than you are contributing you will most likely lose your job. So if a bunch of low-skilled workers lose their jobs they will depend on welfare and cost society. Immigrants will also see the amount of low skilled work and come in. They will work in the black market. sooo yeah

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

I hope you are trolling you fucking Socialist

JunkTop
JunkTop

Son of a small business owner here. This would be their worst nightmare. If you're on minimum wage it's your fault. Fuck off with this conjecture and fantasy left wing twaddle.

whereismyname
whereismyname

Too on the nose?

Lunatick
Lunatick

there are two ways to force higher inflation:
increase the interest rates (that would fuck the debt bubble pretty hard)
set a new zero to wages (ubi or minimum wage basically all result in an adjustment of wages across the table)

Booteefool
Booteefool

I think small incremental increases are still the best. You can't just increase it to $15 on a whim.

girlDog
girlDog

Min wage should be adjusted every year with inflation.

viagrandad
viagrandad

it's one of the things that drive inflation. can't you guys understand this simple concept? you keep increasing it "with inflation" inflation will just keep on devalueing your currency.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Lol. Increasing min wage does not cause inflation. how about you do a bit of research before you spew shit from your mouth

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Basic income -> eliminate minimum wage -> society becomes a little closer to a utopia

Nojokur
Nojokur

I dont get why people equate raising the minimum wage to communism and start talking down on people who happen to provide unskilled labor rather than a long term investment in a domestic economy

Illusionz
Illusionz

he thinks dindus wouldn't just lounge on ubi
kek

Supergrass
Supergrass

margin productivity
if you work at mcdonalds and generate 100$ an hour of revenue, substract all the costs of running the place and paying the boss, then you get what you're worth. Problem is most bosses claim too much for themselves.

I bet margin productivity of a mcdonalds worker is more than 8$ an hour but thats where you can debate about.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

He thinks dindus will lounge around instead of fucking like rabbits for some more sweet sweet child support government money

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Every national attempt at "utopia" has resulted in horror.

King_Martha
King_Martha

it has to. whenever they increase the minimum wage a greater amount of money is in contest for the same amount of goods at one part of the equation. and on the other side of the equation when i look at what wage i want to negotiate the first thing i look at is the minimum wage. and i roughly know how many times i want to get that at the very least. and others do the same min wage workers cost per hour is the reference kind of multiplied by skill level.

now you have to watch it with official inflation data because the basket is heavily manipulated, for example in the past years there was no inflation to speak of here officially and interest rates are super low but i pay 40% for my rent and at least 10% more like 20% more for food than in say 3 years ago. my wage also increased by 30%.

so that's how it is.

girlDog
girlDog

oh and in the rare occasions minimum wage increase does not result in more inflation it's either the increase was still less than inflation or the unemployment went up with the min wage increase decreasing work security and competition both.

viagrandad
viagrandad

well setting a new zero to work hours cost will certainly result in horror. hyperinflation is no fun.
it could be done when the 90% of the population becomes unemployable and the remaining 10% earns so fucking much they don't notice the ubi much. for now it would be catastrophic.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

3 minimum wage increases in the last 10 years is not enough
Somehow this next minimum wage increase will catapult poor people into the middle class
scrapping the welfare state and just showering people with cash is utopia
Letting people work for whatever wage they negotiate and keep all of what they earn would be so terrible we can't try it.

Always a fun conversation

Emberfire
Emberfire

yup there should be a minimum amount that does not get taxed on wages, and the next tax bracket should only apply to the amount above it. lot of time and energy would be released if you didn't tax poor people so you can give them handouts later.

SniperGod
SniperGod

of course it does , look at the definition of cost push inflation .as we all know wage is the cost of the production

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

that's only the production side you have to consider the demand side and the cascading effect also.

StonedTime
StonedTime

perhaps it indeed might rise prices in other ways but the main case here is the rise of the production cost

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

domestic production only, and even that might not be immediately felt on prices. 3 major and interconnected ways can minimal wage cause inflation. it takes a little time for it to propagate you won't see it right that year maybe.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

logical arguments for minimum wage can be made by both sides, so empirical evidence is all that matters

Spamalot
Spamalot

alright find me an economy where nothing changed only they increased the minimal wage and let's look at the data.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Yeah I wouldn't mind if like the first $8 an hour was tax free and we got rid of the actual "minimum" wage. It would allow people to work for like $5 an hour and be just as well off.

Snarelure
Snarelure

eat the poor

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

but the amount and quality of arguments against it overwhelms those for.

StonedTime
StonedTime

money gets actually saved for bigger purchases rather than quick fixes
you dont understand poorfags very well do you?

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

minimum wage increases
necessities costs are increased to bring more profit
poor workers can still only afford necessities

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

Are burgers really saying they don't have a tax free income bracket?

TechHater
TechHater

The thread should have ended here.

This is basic economics, only people that """think""" with their feelings rather than reason and socialist retards agree with raising minimum wage.
If anything, the minimum wage should be abolished, so people that aren't skilled enough to be worth minimum wage payment could enter the workforce and learn skills.

King_Martha
King_Martha

But if the price of the goods/service being produced is being raised, then this means the contribution of the worker into the economy is also being raised.

Without minimum wage being raised in line with goods and service prices being raised, then the contribution of labour far surpassed the value of labour.

All that happens here is that those who supply this labour cannot benefit from their contribution as they can't afford their share of goods and services.

If this carries on for too long, then the gab between contribution and value widens for low paid workers to such an extent that it the labour becomes an inadequate form of income and these people then become a drain on the economy.

This either forms a lack of production, or causes labour to be replaced by machines... Which is already what is happening and will only accelerate.

Illusionz
Illusionz

If the minimum wage doesn't increase with inflation it's pretty damn useless

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Why not make it $1 billion /hr
That way everyone only has to work 1 hour and can retire

MPmaster
MPmaster

people on a business forum unironically arguing for ubi or any minimum wage at all

I remember when I was 19

girlDog
girlDog

what is the standard deduction

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

That sounds even better.
We could make it so you could sue the government if you got fired, too.
Everyone wins!

RavySnake
RavySnake

have no idea how your tax system works
i hardly know my own intimately

JunkTop
JunkTop

Eh, I'd be for ubi if it meant every other single form of government assistance and schlock was done away with, but that wouldn't happen.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Socialist

Why is socialism so bad?
On average democratic socialist countries have much happier populous than compared to non-socialist democracies.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Please refer to Greece and Venezuela

Emberburn
Emberburn

Why is socialism so bad?
Are you genuinely asking or should I insult you? Also,
measuring happiness

Emberfire
Emberfire

Please refer to Denmark, Norway, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium and many more.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

yeah gdp per capita really makes a difference doesn't it?

w8t4u
w8t4u

mfw Ameriburgers keep thinking that
Scandinavian countries, Canada, Netherland, Belgium etc. are based on socialism

idontknow
idontknow

There shouldn't be a minimum wage.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Nice trips.

They aren't 100% socialist, no country is. They're just significantly more socialist than other countries such as the US.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

Americas economy is alot more regulated than ANY of those countries you mentioned. USA is more "socialist" than any of those countries.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

I meant market instead of economy.

protip: more capitalism= more free market

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

learn basic economics

and stop being a communist you faggot

SniperWish
SniperWish

goverment forces me to spend more on you than I am willing to pay you -> I don't hire you

Congrats, now you make €0/h. Good luck with all that "spending power".

King_Martha
King_Martha

This is what fools don't understand. Same thing with any price control. This is basically how government intervention creates shortages: you can force people to charge less for a good (like rent control), but you can't force people to develop housing. And as long as there are other parts of the market to invest in, people will put there money into things that they think will be more profitable

Methnerd
Methnerd

I'm sorry your business model is so bad that you need slave wages to have any chance of functioning.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

What if I just use the low wages of some jobs to motivate me to get better jobs?

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Based on a study: the more ignorant you are the more happy you will

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Germany added minimum wage 2 yrs ago.

SniperGod
SniperGod

this

you can't have minimum wage increasing without inflation also increasing, otherwise you have massive shit problems

DeathDog
DeathDog

Higher minimum wage

Lefties get out.

REEEEEE

happy_sad
happy_sad

and they doubled their inflation which was probably the goal all along.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

so happy he couldn't finish the post

w8t4u
w8t4u

Saved.

idontknow
idontknow

raise minimum wage
most people in minimum wage jobs are in unskilled jobs
unskilled jobs are the easiest to automate
people on minimum wage are replaced by computers and self service machines as these options become more viable
minimum wage cucks become NEET

hairygrape
hairygrape

raise minimum wage
employers have to charge more
inflation rises
minimum wage fags are no further ahead in life, while people who made a little more now make less.

Nice solution.

Also, raising minimum wage just gives employers more justification to do pic related.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

So why do people oppose raising the minimum wage again?
Because it's fucking retarded and causes unemployment.
It needs to be abolished.

Look what the minimum wage did to Pueto Rico and American Samoa.

Playboyize
Playboyize

On average democratic socialist countries have much happier populous than compared to non-socialist democracies.
le happy index

Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries on earth and they have higher living standards than Scandinavia.

Please kill yourself you brainwashed cuck.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

mfw I'm canadian and this brainwashed leftist actually thinks my country is socialist

Please just fucking kill yourself you socialist turd. How fucking stupid are you people?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

I support perpetual inflation that doesn't occur due to supply and demand.
Neck yourself.

Methshot
Methshot

Abolishing central banks and allowing natural deflation helps the poor and middle class far more than a minimum wage increase will.

Libtards and corporations don't want that though.

Firespawn
Firespawn

Switzerland has a well functioning social system and scandinavia is not a country you dumb fuck.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Switzerland has a well functioning social system
What does that even mean?
USA has the same fucking shit. Welfare.

The difference is hardly anyone in Switzerland uses the welfare system. People in Switzerland WORK.

They're one of the most capitalist nations on earth so they have some of the highest wages on earth and the lowest unemployment. They also have the highest local purchasing power.

They also have private healthcare.
Sorry if this destroys your delusional socialist narrative.

scandinavia is not a country
I was referring to all of the Scandinavian countries collectively.
How stupid are you?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

#
On average democratic socialist countries have much happier populous than compared to non-socialist democracies.
le happy index

Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries on earth and they have higher living standards than Scandinavia.

Please kill yourself you brainwashed cuck.

switzerland = democratic socialist country. Retarded cunt.

FastChef
FastChef

democratic socialist

unions are only 20% of the workforce and RARELY go on strike
most of everything is privatized including healthcare
banking culture permeates society
currency with very low inflation and sometimes deflation
low taxes
low regulations

How in the fuck is this democratic socialist? They're more free market than USA is.

Please continue being butthurt though, this is hilarious.

whereismyname
whereismyname

not sure about that capital flees deflation when corps move out of a country poverty remains.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

capital flees deflation when corps move out of a country poverty remains.
Prices come down in the home country, both for capital and consumer goods.
Jobs get created in other sectors of the economy.
High paying service sector jobs become more abundant.

If other countries do the manufacturing and my country gets cheap consumer goods, that's a really good thing.

It's the difference between 1st world and 3rd world countries.

Spamalot
Spamalot

why would they go on strike with every one earning a huge salary, even in the lower education sector? (Keyword: high virtual minimum wage)
inflation: pricelevel is extremely high already, why would prices increase even more? It would need the wages to increase even more
people in the US also work... average inome is 20k$ per year. Some need to work 2-3 jobs to feed a family.
To put it in basic macroeconomic terms for you:
Higher wages => higher consumption => higher production => more growrth => $$$
Thus, minimum wage has a positive effect to the economy. If the wages ware too low to be able to live off the income, people rather kill faggots like you on the streets.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Why are you putting your own words in quotes?
Do you not know how to use this website?

why would they go on strike with every one earning a huge salary, even in the lower education sector?
Yes. Wages are high in this country thanks to their free market policies.

Higher wages => higher consumption => higher production => more growrth => $$$
Of course high wages are good.
What is your point?

minimum wage has a positive effect to the economy
No it doesn't.
It destroys jobs for people who aren't productive enough to make above the minimum wage.
They will have NO job, meaning there is LESS consumption.

What do you think happened in american samoa?

people rather kill faggots like you on the streets.
LOL
Can you even speak english?
It's like you quoted the wrong post and started spewing a bunch of irrelevant bullshit.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

What exactly are you criticising regarding my english abilities?

You greentexted your facts, I answered to them in the same manner. Are you fucking stupid?

companies like mcdonalds pay a low single figure percentage of taxes and you are telling me they can't afford to compensate their workers properly?

If the minimum wage leads to technological innovation that can substitute workers, this is considered a positive technology shock that would only further increase productivity. Low wage jobs will then be created elsewhere due to structural changes.

I didnt read this whole thread but i figured you are against minimum wage, which you actually are, so no, i am answering to the exactly the post i meant to... namely yours.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Typing on the ipad sucks... you can keep the double words

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

What exactly are you criticising regarding my english abilities?
Maybe because you just misspelled a word and made a run-on sentence.
lol

You greentexted your facts
You used it totally wrong. Why would you put a question in a greentext? Are you legitimately retarded?

If the minimum wage
Nobody was even talking about the minimum wage.
This was a debate on whether Switzerland is a free market or socialist country.

Like, what the fuck. Are you actually this dumb?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

It was a rhetorical question, dumbass.
It was implicitly invalidating your greentexted argument and thus it was not a question.

Every first world country has a free market. Switzerland as any other developed country has socialism and free market, so the question if it is one or the other is utterly stupid.

nobody was talking minimum wage
This whole thread is about just that.

I see you are an expert on greentext rules, but have no clue about economics.

Soft_member
Soft_member

And wow, you found some misspelling on Veeky Forums by someone typing on a tablet.
You are clearly the winner of the argument now.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

It was a rhetorical question, dumbass.
So that means I don't have to answer it?
Good.

Every first world country has a free market.
No.
Some are much more free than others.
Switzerland one of the top 3 freest out of all 1st world nations.

Switzerland as any other developed country has socialism and free market
No it doesn't. They have the LEAST amount of socialism in their economy.
That's WHY they are so successful.

This whole thread is about just that.
I wasn't talking to anyone about the minimum wage in this thread until you started talking to me about it randomly.

but have no clue about economics.
Coming from the guy that's probably a keynesian.

You are clearly the winner of the argument now.
Of course I am.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

1st point is wrong
2nd point is offset by higher prices and unemployment
The rest can't possibly follow

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

Higher minimum wage -> More spending power

I'm actually for minimum wage increases in places like America, but that's just blatantly wrong.

Wages increase
Businesses raise prices to maintain healthy profit margin
Spending power decreased

JunkTop
JunkTop

increasing interest rates boosts inflation

This only happens from a neo-Fisherite perspective

FastChef
FastChef

work hard to build skills that make above min wage
let's say 12/hr-15/hr
min wage raised, now losers who were making 9 make 12
my wage isn't increased
effectively lost everything I had gained

Thanks liberals.

Also, everyone I work with feels this way. Burger flippers want 15 a fucking hour? we laugh. There are literally jobs that require degrees that don't make 15.

Just tie the wage to either inflation or to the highest earner in the company like the CEO. Done. Now you've preserved the hierarchy while elevating everyone, not just the stoner dropouts. Thanks.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

no actually it's pretty common sense and widespread knowledge, see long term the inflation trends to the interest rates, short term they can move against each other but that's temporary.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

we shall raise the rate of wages which, however, will not bring any advantage to the workers, for, at the same time, we shall produce a rise in prices of the first necessaries of life, alleging that it arises from the decline of agriculture and cattle-breeding:

we shall further undermine artfully and deeply sources of production, by accustoming the workers to anarchy and to drunkenness and side by side therewith taking all measure to extirpate from the face of the earth all the educated forces of the "goyim."

in order that the true meaning of things may not strike the "goyim" before the proper time we shall mask it under an alleged ardent desire to serve the working classes and the great principles of political economy about which our economic theories are carrying on an energetic propaganda

nice job retards

xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/kidd/thesis/pdf/protocols.pdf

Methshot
Methshot

Thanks for this

SniperGod
SniperGod

How does a high interest rate raise inflation?

WebTool
WebTool

the way new money is created driven by loans today and loans and bonds interests are adjusted to the interest rate logically. so long term the new money flowing into the system is a function of two things: interest rates and velocity of money. short term the velocity of money is a more important factor it's an immediate multiplier on the money supply. the other affects the growth of base money supply.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

funny thing is central banks like to do two things to fight deflation:
1 they cut interest rates which results straight in a real estate bubble
2 they try to drop money on the market called qe and this results in a bubble in the stock market or the whole financial market

but neither of them does anything for the underlying problems causing deflation or the production sector or the private citizens spending power.

what they do is make the situation worse. much worse. when these bubbles pop because the low interest rates long term just get you closer to deflation, so you have to raise them, a lot of people will lose about half his wealth.

i"m not an expert of this stuff this is just my crude understanding how it's supposed to work out by the critiques of the fed.

Inmate
Inmate

Yes it does
Business spend more money with wages + people have more money to spend

massdebater
massdebater

nominal wage raises

idontknow
idontknow

higher minimum wage ->
companies all have to pay employees more->
companies all have to charge more to still make profit->
consumer has to pay more for goods and services.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

The amount that a job generates in revenue isn't the same as the wage the employee gets paid.

RavySnake
RavySnake

i would still like some faggot to prove how universal basic income will not lead to hyperinflation. that could be used to prove minimum wage does not result in inflation in the long run.

so far from what i seen their argument boils down to "there would be no new money created for this we just redistribute the existing sum" which totally ignores the markets price determination/discovery mechanism both for consumer goods and both for wages.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

This has everything to do with average IQ. Tax burden creates a drag on where population naturally end up according to the quality of there people. Per capita income by IQ is remarkably consistent globally, with variances depending on political system (which is why 100 IQ whites make more money in America vs Europe)

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

advocating welfare in nations where a substantial of the population suck balls

Yea doesn't work in non white or non East Asian countries

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Higher minimum wage ->

Employers were only hiring human labor because wages were so low ->

Invests in automation instead ->

Barely anyone has a job

all that said i support the raising of the minimum wage because not having a job is actually a good thing.

Skullbone
Skullbone

Higher minimum wage ..> everything else gets pricier and it's harder to get a minimum wage job so more people go on benefits

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

hyperinflation is now and has always been a meme
its literally the thing they say when they want to oppose something but have no rational reason as to why. hyperinflation isn't even a thing that can really happen without the money supplier making it happen and forcing it to continue happening.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

universal basic income tests in poor african countries has found it worked better than traditional business investment.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

higher consumption => higher production => more growrth => $$$
This reminds me of this youtube.com/watch?v=o2EA_vycLD4

I know that's not what you said, but higher consumption NEVER equals higher production. This is basic supply/demand curve macro economics. Production and consumption don't affect each other. Supply and Demand can only effect price or quantity, cetis paribus. Correct me if I'm wrong, however.

I do think underemployment is a massive issue but I'm not sure raising the minimum wage is the answer. Honestly states should experiment with a system that allows the worker to work for less than the minimum wage and see how that goes. Also, the U.S. has had massive increases in consumption, but as you may know, manufacturing has left the U.S., in order to reduce production costs. I think the best solution would be to crack down on illegal employment, and give preferential treatment to American citizens for jobs in the United States. Have a system similar to affirmative action for American adults. I honestly don't have the solution, but this seems like a decent idea.

cum2soon
cum2soon

I think Brazil and a few other countries did that decades ago. It turned into a snowball rolling downhill

likme
likme

The cost of living isn't the same as coastal cities everywhere in the country.

Playboyize
Playboyize

1.What the fuck is scarcity?

2.How jewish are you?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

GENIOUS

Emberburn
Emberburn

And non-socialist democracies are happier than socialist non-democracies. What's your point?

Firespawn
Firespawn

So why do people oppose raising the minimum wage again?
because it was raised in 2009 and it did nothing whatsoever.

raising the minimum wage is good but by itself its fucking useless.

without trumps ideas like anti-free trade and less regulation and less taxes its useless.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

so the only positive example is where it replaced walfare in a non free market capitalism with no significant and highly skilled employment at place.

how much that helps us about the developed world exactly?

WebTool
WebTool

dude have you any idea how fucking ridiculusly gard for an alien to legally work in the us? do you know what it costs to the employer? shit is about as peotectionist as it gets.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

why dont we just raise it to $1 million so everyone can be rich?

StonedTime
StonedTime

Its a price floor dumbass (it doesnt work very well). Go take microeconomics

DeathDog
DeathDog

literally is a scam designed to reduce the amount of debt

Nojokur
Nojokur

Libcuck here, any increase to the minimum wage is meaningless as most jobs in this range are low education/low skill jobs that are on the way to being automated anyways. The problem is our cultural views on labor and compensation. Most low wage workers are in jobs that are deemed low value. There is no reason to compensate them because they are easily replaceable cogs that are quickly becoming obsolete. In the long term we are bleeding our self out as these people just create a larger and larger underclass that will cannibalize the rest of the economy. A change in our value systems seeing labor compensation as an investment toward a stable economy would need to happen but I personally don't see that happening any time soon. The next best thing is legalize and fund cheap to free abortions. Despite your outliers of the rare "welfare queen", most in poverty if given the option of not having an accidental child burden will choose to not add to the population if it isn't a major cost on them. Simply let the poor weed themselves out.

idontknow
idontknow

libcuck
suggests weeding the poor out
libcuck

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