/parag/ - Paragon General

>slapping each other with wet noodles for 20 minutes before you can actually start doing damage is fun

you understand there are early game cards just like there were before, yes?

They're all shit and they still nerfed all damage across the board so you have to spam ability and autos that do fuck all damage. Shits literally a slap fight now. Before it actually mattered if you landed autos/abilities on someone pre-20 minutes in.

I know what you mean, the pacing of matches is ridiculous. This has repeatedly been stated to be what Cameron wants though, so unless the project changes hands again, this is what Paragon will be.
It's a damn shame: this is my first moba, but now I'm actually considering downloading DOTA2 to replace it, but the prospect of jumping on board with something that complex and historied is daunting as fuck.
I don't know, maybe I'll just go and be a big fish in a small pond in a babby moba like HoTS.

What cards/affinities are good on Wraith?

knowledge/doesn't matter

League and hots are miles better than dota.

i really do not get where you're coming from

Gideons rocks deal more damage than ever all throughout the game. Countess one cycles people 5 seconds after she gets her ult. Shinbi can kill people with line tempo>dash>wolves>dash>tempo ult with zero items in about 5 seconds. Fey absolutely destroys people with nothing but teleblink and the early game ability pen card, assuming she's got good aim.

I hear League makes you grind like crazy if you don't pay to unlock certain heroes, and that you're stuck with a selected rotation of a handful of heroes/ roles until you do either. I'll look into it, but the rivalry between the big two is such that I probably shouldn't trust anyone's opinion on which is better because there are insane fanboys on each side.

Why is 1400 rating so shit? I'm the only one on my team that has played more than 2 matches with my hero. Our carry + support went a combined of 5-20-6.

They fed against a solo Wukong somehow. Nobody on my team even got >100 creep score in 20 minutes.

>I hear League makes you grind like crazy if you don't pay to unlock certain heroes, and that you're stuck with a selected rotation of a handful of heroes/ roles until you do either.
It's nowhere near as bad as this game though.

Dota, a much older game, still gets more viewership than LoL. LoL is also slowly starting to fall in popularity.

I expect Dota to still be around in 10 years time. League? Maybe. Maybe not.

Shinbi can beat almost everyone 11 with order growth build.

i'm knowledge/growth, why order?

Order has stagnant domain for ability hit slow
And the hearty game health regeneration card for off.
End game god mother vigilant stagnant domain and Mellenk Gnasher
With the mana fountain gem and over powers spells gem makes you a tank buster while being a tank that also heals

>more viewership than lol
not really.
The international is equivalent to the world series of league, and they both pull similar numbers. League has way more regular off-tourney viewers if you were talking about that, like, usually double.

I'm pretty happy with mine and i don't think i'll change much. Oh and I'm knowledge/death actually, didn't find Gnasher worth it.

>pick up manaflow the instant i get 4th INT point
>Invader Mage
>swap Invader out for Thaumaturge when possible
>swap advanced evolution out for Invader mage
>swap invader out for Atomic Soldier
by then my INT is maxed and it's time to start leveling VIT and from there it's all dependent on what I need or how I'm fighting.

Plague Lord aura is absolutely legit and it has alright stats, i usually swap manaflow out for plague lord first and then change atomic for Nameless if I need to do get in-get out hit and runs quickly and use ult to finish off the curse.

I dunno man gnasher with the 40 % damage stack along with the 20 percent from over powers spells I delete people out of position with out even trying cuz the can't get away with them being always slow

i think i've finally got my howie deck in a good spot but it could still use some tuning.

>them always being so slow
that's what plague aura is for, expect it affects every single enemy around you and it almost has the radius of the range of line tempo

>off-tourney
LoL has a "tournament" every single day with their LCS shit.

Thaumaturge is pretty trash muh man

Enjoy getting poped by adc or any cc.o
Ir not be able to 3 v 1 Without God mother

I can't justify delaying overpowered spells long enough to get godmother at a reasonable time

by the time you get 25int/13 vit the match is usually over or decided anyway

how do you even get to that low elo, isn't the starting amount like 1400?

Pretty sure when i checked agora after playing like 20 games I was in gold so the starting point can't be that low.

you're gonna be in for a surprise when you get 5 man jungle invaded in the first 3 minutes. there was a match that was 2-4 within the first 3 minutes in the tourney thats going on now. dont know why you people think ricing lanes for the first 15 minutes is some moba standard its almost exclusively a league thing

>want to equip shatter golem and deathcrawler

>can't

Damn

> he can't pick 7 kill by mid game

starting is 1200, gold is 1300, you get + or - 15 for your first 10 or so matches so if you have any idea what you're doing you'll make gold extremely quickly

>First solo Q game
>Both Narbash and Serath want to jungle
>Serath gets mad and quits
>Countess follows up

Solo Q is just impossible.

The same thing happened a lot in the recent Paragon exhibition tournament: Bronze Army's strategy was to just invade as a team, set wards in the enemy jungle and pick up some early kills the second they spawned.
Organised competitive teams aren't the standard, I've seen an early invasion maybe once every 50 games in Paragon, and that's probably a generous estimate.

Alright I really like greystone, he's fun and tanky and does some good damage. But I just got a sweet zinx skin from the loot crate, do they have a similar deck setup or will I have to make something new.

Are AD carries even worth it? It looks to me like the melees deal such an insane amount of damage that all AD carries do is run.

Do bot matches add to your elo score?

I hope not cause I know I'm a shitter so I'd hate to ruin the game of someone actually good, and would rather start gitting gud with all the other shitters.

You must be retarded. Putting hero experience behind a grindwall at least lets you play them. Only being able to play ~10 heroes at a time is lame as fuck.

>at least lets you play them

Except nobody does. Everyone's only playing the few heroes they have masteries for, which is a nightmare at low account levels.

A circulating collection of unlocked heroes ensures you get to try different heroes regularly, and changes up the matches since everyone else is also forced vary up their picks.

Neither system is perfect though.

the current system would be fine if they'd just scale the cost. i have sparrow and belica at 10, you're giving me a gold key for it and basically giving away a free skin so 750k to get something that in game is priced around $5 is something im fine with.
to have people new to the game or who just want try a new hero to be forced to blow 750k just to get some cards and chests is bullshit. make rank 1 cost 25k rep and then keep increasing it.

It's 500k for the first rank.
then like 200k for rank 2, and it scales back up. It's retarded man.

So in the time I grinded my Wukong's mastery from level 1 to 10 I got around 260k reputation. Next rank unlock costs 500k. New cards are locked behind this kind of a grind.

Pay2win as fuck. This is like a damn mobile game.

Wukong initial unlock is 500k. Once you get to level 10 it's 500k again.

thaht's if you had the old mastery.
You get to level 1 to level 10 in rank 1, then have to pay 200k after the first 500k, then 350k for level 3, and then 400k per rank till rank 10 then it's 500k again, and it scales up further.

I only have masteries from pre-update so I didn't know this, I unlocked rank 2 on Gideon for free.

That's the last straw. Dropping this game entirely until shit gets fixed.

I just unlocked level 10 on my rank 1 mastery on Wukong. The next unlock is 500k right now. I just looked at it in game.

I suspect every rank is going to be 500k.

The rep I have is what I have earned getting him from level 1 to 10 in rank 1.

Shit I was lied to. I asked epic support and they said it'd be 200k to get rank 2, guess I'm gonna go complain and shitpost with screencaps on the official forums.

>there's a ridiculous rep cost on every fucking mastery rank

Just when I thought this update couldn't be any worse.

>make rank 1 cost 25k rep and then keep increasing it

Something like this would be perfect. Maybe a slightly higher entry cost tho, like 40 or 50 would be better

Someone tell me how I can even fucking use utility to stop countess. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I CAN SEE HER
I could be given 24/7 view on her and it wouldn't matter. The sheer SPEED she can kill me in means there is no where I can hide on the entire fucking map. Shit, I couldn't hide in the fucking spawn probably.
>oh but just ward/truesight
It doesn't fucking matter I can be in the T2 tower while the T1 is still alive and she can pop in and kill me without even using a full rotation. WITH a full rotation it wouldn't even matter anymore. She can feed off any and all of the players on your team if they have less than 5-digit health and the only way to counter her is to build SPECIFICALLY against that, likely ruining your build because there are FOUR MORE OTHER ENEMIES.

I literally cannot understand anyone defending this mess. I can't even bring myself to play because I can't figure out how to counter it. None of my abilities can outdamage her and unless you've got 4 or 5 people with stuns ready to stunlock her so she can not even BREATHE before you kill her since if she can move it's already over.

Redpill me on this countess nonsense. What build makes her so crazy? I'm just a bot-match scrub still so I haven't faced any ludicrous builds/plays yet.

Basically you can build whatever on Countess. Supports and carries that don't build any health or take vitality points get one combod by her since they don't have any health and ability armor basically doesn't exist.

The problem is just with Invader Mage early on she can fucking instagib people. Then it gets worse.

I think I explained it pretty well. She can MELT you faster than you can react and the invis death card is ridiculous unless you "COUNTER" her by building two decks for every type of build you want because if you see her in your match you better have fucking order boyo. And even then it doesn't matter if she can feed off anyone on your team because at a point your wards, your truesight, your shields, they won't matter to her. She will still melt you, she will melt you so fast that she could honestly do it while you're in your spawn. She can do it in any of your towers and be out instantly and the best you can do is delay her if she's stupid. Even the counters for her are not good enough and then you still have people saying LOL JUST COUNTER HER. Like you fucking idiot it doesn't matter if I can see her because I've probably got one crowd control type ability that sucks shit unless I'm a support or something. This idea of countering her is the stupidest shit ever. And people say "oh but we don't want to overnerf her and kallari" I don't think you understand, I'd be fine with them straight up removing them until this shit is sorted because no possible other OP character could be worse than this shit it's literally ruining the game AND becoming more prolific as people realize its the most ridiculous way to be overpowered

heh

Why do ability armor cards have to be so god awful anyway? The order one is a 240hp heal once a minute that I've never ever noticed the activation of. Wetwork Virus is -30 damage and attack speed for 4 seconds, which is useless against 4/5th of the enemy team. Riot Sapper has almost negligible effect since it's based on current mana and everyone is running on empty 2 seconds after a fight starts anyway. Wicked Ripost doesn't have a terrible ability but only Phase and Iggy have stacking debuffs and they're never going to be near enough to get hit by the damage aspect of it. All those 7 cost cards have terrible stats like +60% mana regen or +10 ability power.

The 13 cost cards like Unbroken Spirit and Sorvukk Initiate are good because they actually give you stats but they also have godlike abilities. You get 40 ability armor, 500HP, and either 12% life from hard CC (stacking) or the ability to put a victory timer on any battle unless they can delete you instantly.

>What build makes her so crazy?
She doesn't have to build anything to be good. You just stack win-more cards and utility on her, but fuck, you are a threat even if you built nothing. Her base damage is just that fucking stupid. When you give an assassin insane early base damage(lvl5 someone is dead with no counterplay available), mobile single target kit, great waveclear, and the ability to never fall behind (font of xp/volstok, since gold doesn't matter) in a game where snowball is so important you have created a hero that every single enemy must build, counter, and focus out. The game will revolve around just her.
>but muh counters
>Red Yomi?
Great counter that is available ~6 minutes too late and is a functionally dead card on already weak adcs. Easily baited out by slipping in and backing off.
>Blue ability shield?
Same as above and if the enemy is stacking at all they know to run a wukong/kwang/kallari and a countess so you just spent a lot of vit on a card that only counters one hero. Same baiting as red.
>harass her early!
I can afk with volstok or font till level 5 and you are going to be stuck at level 3 or having wasted 1000g on font meaning less vit for you to start counter building me
>stun her out and burst her!
because 5v1 the op hero is a great argument. Also fight a good countess that knows when to blink/slip/ult to avoid your limited cc, its a blast. Not even mentioning this takes coordination
>vision
and? vision isn't fucking magical. I am still going to blink/ult to kill your back line and probably with dark tide to spare. I mean her ult forces you to look at her for fucks sake, she doesn't really give a shit if you see her coming to fucking merc you.
>build tanky
I come online at level 5. I am winning the game before you buy Unbroken spirit. There are no early game defensive cards that effectively deal with her. Hell even late game tanks get dealt 900 damage feasts.

she scales too high and shadow dancer needs nerfed, other than that nothing. she needs some simple number changes so she can't wipe anyone under tower at level 5 and people need to realize counter picking and building is no longer just an epic dev team meme and actually a legitimate thing you have to do now instead of just yolo picking like you could before.
belica, aurora and kwang all currently shit on her, any support with a lockdown game like riktor destroy her if the team is competent. once she gets the number nerfs she needs grim would be the carry you'd pick against her. she's a bit overtuned, shadow dancer is way too good, and you combine that with people in lower levels already having shit map awareness and positioning along with vision being massively changed and an assassin character will be broken

See shit like this is why I still haven't tried PvP. I'm the new guy who discovered the game and came here about a week before v42, and I've always been shit at mobas, so I figured I'd wait until the update to dive in. Update happens, I have a few busy work days so I can't play, and I come back to find the game (bot matches) pretty fun but shorter than ever (meaning more grind 4 cards). Plus I come here and find out the meta balance has been completely fucked, which essentially guarantees me a bad time, considering I have like half the cards in every affinity and practically no gems.

>countering not a meme
>belica
hard cc doesn't count as a countess counter and even still countess shits on belica
>kwang
is also broken as fuck right now so it isn't countering it as much as just playing another op character
>aurora
maybe in silver. slip out of her ult and aurora is now useless. that's not a counter
>counter building is real guys
get back to me on good early game ability armor cards. Preferably something I could build sub-7 minutes than still makes me viable. What, wetwork virus? There isn't fuck all for counter building countess because she isn't a late game hero. By the time you get unbroken she has either won or lost the game.
You were right about the numbers problem but stop sucking EPIC's dick about the countering meme. I'm sure you also think buying sacred alchemy constitutes investing heavily into soloing OP.

So everyone is sucking countess' dick right now but can we talk about the state of wukong? The moment you get SacAlc he become impossible to kill, can solo OP/raps, and almost solo fucking t2s. Not to mention you can't really fight him either because you are either squishy in which case you die or you are a bruiser and he walks away. I think he is the worst offender in terms of busted balance right now.
I mean, no one gives a shit about stats so go play the broken heroes and experiment. If by some stroke of luck you land a game without khai, kwang, countess, or wukong you might have some fun.

All this applies to high gold/diamond.
At low elos you can still have a blast running anything, and so far the only 2 one-shot countesses I played with were smurfs.

Basically the same rule still applies. Silver/gold is fun, anything higher and you're playing with/against try hard faggots who will dodge if you dont pick a meta team.

Good example of what's wrong with Countess:

youtube.com/watch?v=bjLb_Bw9xO4&t=210s

>hard cc doesn't count as a countess counter and even still countess shits on belica
things that explicitly counter squishy glass cannon heroes aren't actual counters now ok
>maybe in silver. slip out of her ult and aurora is now useless. that's not a counter
you're ulting when she can see you do it and im apparently in silver, hilarious.
quit assuming countering is straight stat building anymore, you don't need ability armor and it doesn't do anything anyway because she's too overtuned. gag order makes her worthless, any stun or root makes her a free kill. she's overturned and needs to be brought down so the only way she can kill people who aren't carries unless she's way ahead is a full rotation instead of just Q-E-M2 but this bitching like she's a game destroying character is trash, phase was more broken just a fucking week ago than countess is right now

My only masteries are Gideon, Sevarog, Chadblast and Muriel

They're my favorite ones to play as from the ones I've tried. I always end up as MVP regardless of which one of those I pick, like out of my team mates. I'd say I get on average 10/0/10. I wish I could see my detailed stats somewhere because I'm curious about that.

addendum:

I also like playing as Rev and Dekker, but I wasn't able to get those masteries before the update, so playing them now is literally wasting effort when I'm lacking so many cards/gems.

>things that explicitly counter squishy glass cannon heroes aren't actual counters now ok
count can slip to avoid hard cc and good luck hitting her with knock up when she can just invis to you tide - turn and you die. I would normally agree with you that cc does counter glass cannons my dude but we are past that. That is like saying hard cc stops Kallari's ohko build. Prevention is the only counter to these heroes, not reaction based abilities like cc.
>phase was more broken just a fucking week ago than countess is right now
just not true, man. Phase was a hell of a force multiplier and in that way extremely broken but countess can single handedly carry a game. Phase at least needed a TB to reach her bullshit pinnacle but countess is doing it alone.

you're just gonna play a bunch of shitters in placement matches who probably have less than you since most of them only screw with the bot matches because they're forced too. you have nothing to lose by going pvp and all those masteries you have are good heroes

Gideon is good but his ult sucks now. Rock is retarded.
Sev is bad.
TB is pretty bad.
Muriel is one of the best supports.

I really want to try Morgesh, Zinx and Wraith because they're new but I only have masteries for The Fey, Aurora, and Shinbi. It sucks that its such a waste of time and then when its over you have to sit at that conclusion screen for 2 minutes looking at all the things you missed out on.

>mori
meh, but mainly bad
>zinx
trash tier
>wraith
still a good utility based kit but needs a lot of coordination to pull off correctly. If you are soloq he is pretty bad
>fey
decent just for her poke but gets shit on by the assassins right now
>aurora
also decent and the cc can help against aforementioned assassins
>shinbi
one of the best jungles right now

1400 is objectively the most fun rating. I pick Wukong and ignore the entire team. I farm for 20 minutes, then I go solo Orb Prime and start pushing towers. If it works I take inhibitors and win the game, if it doesn't then I 1vs5 the enemy team and still win the game.

This works in diamond.

i just said shadow dancer is completely broken and the main reason everyone is bitching about her. good on you for recognizing that kallari is actually the way way more broken character right now though.
>just not true, man. Phase was a hell of a force multiplier and in that way extremely broken but countess can single handedly carry a game. Phase at least needed a TB to reach her bullshit pinnacle but countess is doing it alone.
bullshit i've won matches against countesses without one on my team and countess doesn't invalidate an entire lane to the point where lane comps are shifted just to mitigate that. the rose tint is already coming out in regards to this game. people would play 3 matches against a phase who can give anyone on her team v42 attack speed levels with the higher per shot damage of before with barrier, tainted, quenching and a ward everywhere on the map and beg for 42 back

I guess I'm not missing out on too much.
Shinbi jungle sounds interesting. Usually people have me do a solo lane but she's really weak in the early game. Do you take any of the jungle specific items like the stacking power thing or is it just a means to an end?

Thanks. I guess in this transitory phase with broken balancing and people unfamiliar with the new system there'll be a scrub deep within everyone.
I build order/knowledge on muriel right?

Alright so lets break down this shit video
First off it's a Countess jungle and the enemy jungler is fucking Kwang and he didn't invade her despite Countess having shit sustain early on. All he had to do was start left side, hit level 2 and kill her at green buff. This is jungler shit 101.

Second, she goes for a gank on a level 6 Yin and a level fucking 3 Revenant
(???). Of course they have no wards, Rev gets deleted because hes fucking level 3 and then they kill Yin. Amazing start completely unexpected.

Next it's our boy Rev again, still under leveled as fuck, trying to force down a tower while the Countess, SLOWLY WALKS UP TO HIM and kills him. Then their shit Kwang dies because he has no mana and is also under leveled because I suspect he's done fuck all those 14 minutes.

Our boy Rev dies again, still level 7 as fuck 16 minutes in.

Now we have UNDER LEVELED AND BEHIND Kwang in the ENEMY jungle trying to steal camps?????

At this point I don't need to watch anymore of the video.
It's literal shitters just feeding Countess. I'm so sick of getting you retards in my games.

Shinbi has one of the best early games right now due to circle rhythm being on such a short cooldown. You can build her bruiser or damage oriented. She doesn't need much help with early clear so if you splash blue pick up font. I usually run her growth/x since tyrant works well with her fast clear. You will eventually sell tyrant late game though.
Order/anything is fine. Most of your cards are order based. I personally run white/green just for some of the early game sustain cards being so cheap in green. As long as you pick up wards you are doing great. Knowledge isnt bad though just for font.

>mfw support wraith lord comstock

wew

Wtf ranking up costs?

only if you didn't buy the mastery pre update. if you did then it only costs to go past rank 10

How does this look for Muriel?

I'll practically be a combination of Muriel and Dekker by endgame.

>tfw still don't have the actual good endgame cards

>I'm sure you also think buying sacred alchemy constitutes investing heavily into soloing OP
Fucking lol.
Sort of related, in that it's another case of Epic PR bullshit, but remember that Murdock vs Raptors video that waste circulating before v42 released, and how the guy who posted it had been assured that it was just a dev dicking around with God mode on? I guess it was sort of true, seeing as how everyone has God mode on after 25 minutes.

>honestly missing full power builds
did you fucking ENJOY rev and twinblast being the only adcs in the game?

>sacred alchemy

I dont think support can afford to buy more then 2 attributes

this is my deck

Just last hit, because your AD carry is likely a shitter unless you're 1700+.

youtube.com/watch?v=tP6bHvJY4wk

Dodging in queue should count as a loss.

what happened to the /parag/ version of this

>Phase at least needed a TB to reach her bullshit pinnacle but countess is doing it alone.
You haven't seen the Damage Phase user, have you?

Gonna try this and see how it goes. Basically me compensating for there not being a healing hero in the game.

I have 16/24 in every affinity.

Welp, looking at it like this made me realize my goof. I switched the red gem into mana fountain instead.

I just absolutley destroyed a team as wukong and still lost because my team kept dieng over and over, its like i was teamed against and with silvers....

>lol just build ability armor bro
>max ability armor cards