So tell me

It's over, Tesla is finished

wow, changing batteries every 100K km, big deal

I live in the desert and left another controller out in the sun to bleach it. Worked fine.

>Implying anyone is going to buy a Tesla if they live somewhere that gets -40F

Where on the graph did you come up with that?

Norway has more teslas than people it seems and they do pretty well over there.

Note: "pretty well" meaning that you take the 25% range loss as a given, but otherwise they'll drive just fine.

Well that is just fucking retarded.

25% range loss vs. what? Because it's so cold? Do you think gasoline/diesel cars get the exact same MPG regardless of conditions and mileage?

There's a shitload of Teslas in Alberta and it gets that cold here. I've seen lots of video's of people having issues in the cold though. That one Norwegian asian dude that vlogs his tesla adventures seems to have issues with the cold too.

that's EVs for you. It's really not a big of a deal as you think. Teslas have some of the lowest low-temp range losses anyways - leafs in the winter lose like 60%.
Plus, with new battery preconditioning software winter losses can be cut even further. It's only going to get better

More or less. You might lose an mpg or two from the cold or lose a bit from idling but it's nowhere near 25%.

>battery pack that has to bear high temps, deep cycles, fast recharging and have tons of on demand capacity
yeah they'll last for milleniums to come

those issues are more with glass cracking and doors not opening than range.

...vs it not being cold out? I'm comparing an apple to an apple here. Just google "Tesla winter range losses".

I still think people should buy used vehicles and use them to their maximum life cycle as possible. It's much more greener.

>battery finally shits itself after 700k kilometers
>you now have two options:
>buy a used, 200k battery for cheap
>buy a new battery, that is probably longer range or whatever because it has been ten years since your original pack was made

seems fine to me

Mostly doors not opening but a lot of range issues too. The things have so much glass that you need to keep the heat cranked which eats away at battery life. People with p90's can barely do 350km trips in the winter.

>implying the muskrat won't drm your ass into buying a new pack

Tesla will gladly give you a new pack. they're covered under warranty... it's just that no one has really needed to get a replacement one besides that one taxi guy. And, it's usually a small part of the pack that get's replaced, not the whole thing.

Plus - look at all of the other EVs out there. Leafs, egolfs, i3's all are doing just dandy with original packs.

>look at all of the other EVs out there. Leafs, egolfs, i3's all are doing just dandy with original packs.

Those packs aren't having 2000amps pulled out of them like in a Tesla or supercharged at the limit like a Tesla.

>battery pack that has to bear high temps
Compared to what? It's liquid cooled. Very rare to see a liquid cooled lithium ion battery in anything. Safe to say it's temp range is narrower than almost all other lithium ion batteries you deal with in your day to day life

>deep cycles
Compared to what? How do you know what range of SOC Tesla utilizes? Could be very narrow.

>fast recharging
Fast compared to what?

>and have tons of on demand capacity
Tons of on demand capacity compared to what? Does a P100D doing 0-100 draw more %wise than your phone watching 1080p porn with the flashlight on? None of your points have any context or reference.

why would I have my flashlight on when watching porn? tsk tsk.

that's because other companies are dumb and haven't been pushing for ultra fast charging. in five years everyone will be using 150kw chargers. Why? because with proper battery management and good software, big spurts of juice can be just fine for a battery.

>because with proper battery management and good software, big spurts of juice can be just fine for a battery.

Naw. You can't cheat the laws of chemistry even with Musk's money.

>why would I have my flashlight on when watching porn?
I'm not here to question your strange habits, I'm just a man asking questions

what law might that be? Thou shalt not move electrons around some cobalt salts too quickly?

Charging the living fuck out of a cell negatively affects it's lifespan. Musk's secret blend of herbs and spices won't get you around that fact.

"negatively affects" seems to be 15% after 500,000km. That's an awfully good starting point to improve upon. Why so salty?

What is the break point between normal charging and "Charging the living fuck out of"? A certain temperature? Certain amperage?

That's before the days of ludicrous mode and readily available supercharging stations. 15% after 500k is bullshit and you know it.

I'm not salty I just don't like people who drink the marketing koolaid and believe the marketing wank.

Not sure what amperages they use but a supercharger station or a full 200amp residential charger would be charging it hard.

RC guys have been dealing with these issues for years now.

>15% after 500k is bullshit and you know it.
Yeah sounds like bullshit indeed, this graph makes it look like the number is likely closer to charging it hard.
What is "hard"?

>RC guys have been dealing with these issues for years now.
Do "RC guys" have liquid cooled packs? What range of voltages do their cells operate in? If I was an "RC guy" I would probably be less concerned over the control of my $20 battery than an engineer at Tesla whose numbers have to estimate the cost of wear on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of cells in an entire fleet of EVs.

>but muh EV is equivalent to a 4S lipo-driven hobbyking quadcopter

An EV is literally a life sized RC car. People here act like it's a fucking spaceship or something.

and an ICE car is a life sized gas powered RC car you fuckstick

gah

So real talk, Tesla (and every other EV maker) don't let you fully drain your battery. There's a reserve level of charge that they shut the car down at before you completely discharge the battery.
And they don't let you over charge the battery, even a little.

Those two steps are good for like 20% more life on a LiOn cell than the charging system on your phone, laptop, or RC car will manage. But beyond that, the real peak charging event isn't when the car gets hooked to a supercharger (145 kw, sure, but there's 5000+ cells being charged), but instead comes during peak regen braking (450 kw in a P100D, which has over 10,000 cells). But even then, the biggest threat is heat, not the actual electrons, and the car has more robust cooling systems than anything else.

The Chevy Volt has been using LiOn cells since 2010, and most users report a maximum range degradation of less than 10%. This is a bit cheaty, however, because Chevrolet programmed the car to hold less battery capacity in reserve, as it ages, in order to maintain EV range capabilities over time.

>and the car has more robust cooling systems than anything else.
It has a shit cooling system. It just throttles itself to the point of driving like a Honda City if you decide you actually want to have any fun in it.

won't their new charging stations just swap out the battery anyways?

nah, they tried that but people have emotional attachments to *their* battery. It was dumb anyways, we're gonna have 200kw chargers soon enough.

Normal devices charge the battery up to 100% all the time, or close. I believe electric cars charge to below capacity which makes the cells last much longer.

there was already a video on this. YES you can replace the pack but even if only one cell dies you must replace the WHOLE pack (only sold by tesla and priced at 6 to 7 thousand dollars).

>Apparently the batteries are water cooled

>cooling system springs leak, shorts battery and electrical components.
>car is a brick now

but but but that wont happen

anyone who does more than ride the bus knows that ANY part on a car can fail, including the cooling system. Given the shit quality of Tesla thus far, I'm going to guess that it will fail sooner rather than later.

why shill this hard.

Its not like theres so few on the road that anything that could go wrong hasn't already.

Except no,you haven't heard about it....And products will tend to fail either very early or very late in their life cycle.

>why shill this hard.

who is shilling? Teslas quality in what they have managed to release is apaling. As they attempt to up production (which invariably is at the cost of quality) and enter more driving environments the failures will build.

>Its not like theres so few on the road that anything that could go wrong hasn't already.

There are relatively few out on the roads at this moment and what is out was built very slowly and is still shit.

>And products will tend to fail either very early or very late in their life cycle.

Your going to have to define the length of said "life cycle" if you want that statement to have any impact.

>How can Tesla ever recover?

>The average life of a Lithium Ion battery is 2-3 years.
for one, [citation needed]
for another, the life of a lipo is dramatically increased or decreased by whether or not it regularly gets too hot and how full it's charged, how deep it's discharged.

teslas have some gnarly pack cooling systems and are really anal about how full you charge them and keep some charge in reserve as a "floor" to prevent deep discharge

even the first year teslas are still at 90% charge capacity at worst, it's pretty impressive

the reason your phone gets raped in three years is because it has no cooling and charges to its literal max all the time

oh and here's a source on that figure. there are some outliers down to 80% real quick but the trend levels out fast with more miles

By not being a poorfag lol u think Chad the internet billionaire cares about spending chump change on batteries every 3 years? He probably won't even notice

[Citation needed]

>An EV is literally a life sized RC car
That's the most retarded thing I've heard today. I guess this is also true now
youtube.com/watch?v=J1KuYXafOAw

>ICE is liquid cooled
>cooling system piss itself
>water goes to electricity(???) and then it's brick
>but but but that won't happen
Does anyone in the US even make it until the end of high school? They design the batteries such that if the cooling piss itself 10 grand worth of batteries don't become as good as ballasts.

>The average life of a Lithium Ion battery is 2-3 years
No you mong, that just you abusing your cellphone with 100-0-100% cycles and constant battery heating.

You know you can change a Prius battery right.

>It has a shit cooling system. It just throttles itself to the point of driving like a Honda City if you decide you actually want to have any fun in it.
So I guess all those videos on YouTube of the P100D beating supercars with insane acceleration are fake. Or maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Decent desu. Still that's 30 miles. Per trip

It's not like they were doing back to back runs. Usually you have time in between drag runs to let your shit cool down.

Let's also keep in mind that most people drive their Tesla's like slow fucks. If I had one that bitch would be throttling itself a lot.

You know your not supposed to use the entire battery capacity on l-ion.

It's not 100% unless Chinese.

I only see boi racers with them where I live.

what is the pink spot?

lithium batteries under heavy load are not expected to last more than 500 recharges

a low usage game controler is completely different

when they cost as much as a brand new car, it is a VERY big deal

EV cucks eternally btfo

>when they cost as much as a brand new car
>$6,000
>same cost of a brand new car
The cheapest brand new car is the Nissan Versa Note for $13,000, more than twice the price of a brand new Tesla battery bank.

Trying to be smart on something you have no clue about.

They are cooled batteries unlike your phone, they are kept between a certain amount of charge level unlike your phone.

Read up on batteries lad

If it really made a big difference to you, I am sure if you take the car back to tesla they would replace the low voltage cells and cure the problem.

I'm comparing the cooling sustenance to other battery powered electronics, not to ICE cars.

>drag """""racing"""""

>shits on drag racing
>probably doesn't even own a car, let alone race

Alright mate, whatever makes you feel better about being impressed by the vee8s and Tesla's passing your bus at the lights during your commute to centrelink.

EVs have more sophisticated chargers. Than your phone or laptop.

>how will electric cars last over 10 years?
>ev nuthugger posts graph showing capacity relative to miles
Fuckin lol

whats that guys channel? thought he was goofy and like his channel for that but i cant remember what it was

>first pull: i win!
>second pull: i win!
>third pull: give me a minute
>time for the road course: NOT FAIR

that includes 2012 teslas, so we're already at the 6 year mark on that graph.
also, literally everyone bitching about tesla range degredation refers to how often they charge, which correlates strongly with miles driven since tesla owners tend to wait until its sub 50% charge at minimum to charge them up

Is Tesla profitable yet?

Will I ever be able to afford one?

They've turned a profit for a quarter or two.

Cold weather is real issue with pretty much any battery. Turns out that if you slow down atoms they're not as good as transferring the electrons around.
If you compare the range of a Tesla model S on totally flat highway at 70f then you get get a range exceeding the EPA rated range. Tesla themselves say its good for up to 300 miles on a full charge.
However if the temperature drops down to 20f, still on flat clear highway, the range can fell below 150 miles. You effectively lose half of your range from a 50 degree temp delta.

In real world usage this gets even worse. If you drive somewhere, park, let the battery cool down, then the car is going to use energy to heat the battery up to optimal temp. God help you if its any colder than 20f outside, your full charge 300 mile range can be reduced to double digits.
This really isn't going to change, EVs are always going to have this problem. The only thing thats going to offset it is battery capacity increasing to such a degree that it stops being a practical issue.

Unless you're an urbanite who only makes short trips in the winter EVs are a west coast luxury in the US. Great for California, not so much Minnesota.

Out of curiosity, what's the actual appeal of electric cars?

All of the torque
Wanting to be environmentally conscious, whether it lines up with reality or not is debatable
Electricity is cheaper than gasoline
Easier to put power down to all 4 wheels

Eventually batteries will reach such high capacity and reduce in weight that they're the undisputed champ for pretty much everything. With range woes gone the power delivery characteristics put all combustion engines to shame. Performance ultimately can be controlled with just firmware, acceleration, top speed, etc. With a motor on all four wheels you can have incredibly powerful torque vectoring easily controlled by the onboard computer.
The potential is there for even a simple EV econobox to be a speed demon that handles like a race car.

I'm very skeptical about the extra torque bonus. Do you really need it to drive in the city and on the highway?

but the internal temps are regulated with a radiator system

torque is arguably the only thing you need in the city and is great on the highway

But a real car (especially with the price of a Tesla) does the job perfectly already.

Really? It doesn't say that or even provide a sauce for the data

The torque can be electronically limited. It gives any manufacturer the ability to get a car off the line immediately without ripping the tires off or causing the vehicle to lose control.
You don't need 400ft/lbs or more in a daily driver when just cruising, but the ability to momentarily put down power is very advantageous.

It takes power from the battery to regulate the battery's temperature. Energy isn't free. When its cold outside the car activates a heater that warms the battery, and thats part of what eats up your range.

>real car

you mean an ICE car. and it doesn't really do the job 'perfectly'. you can't refill it at your house, you have to change the oil every 5k. you don't get back power under braking, you need a dedicated system for fuel delivery and another one for electrical, and you still have to deal with emissions of building and manufacturing the gas tank, motor, internals, etc in addition to the emissions that the actual car produces. The only advantage that ICE has over EV is that if you're a complete idiot and run out of fuel then you can fill up your tank on the side of the highway whereas an EV would need a tow to a charger.

> user replaceable maintenance parts
> can run for decades with minor work
or
> giant computer on wheels with more DRM and propitiatory software than apple
lol k

or you could go in there with your own wrenches, not know how to ground the system and fry yourself with several hundred amps of electricity.

Everything is already computer controlled whether its ICE or EV. Your ECU/PCM, the massive network of sensors, its all electronically controlled and monitored.
Electric motors just reduce moving parts.

As someone who rarely posts on Veeky Forums and doesn't even have a car (I came here today for that sticky since I might need a car soon for work), the thought of putting my car in my garage and getting a fully charged up car and never having to worry about gas stations is appealing to me.

It's also good for the environment if fossil-fuel based plants aren't needed to power them.

>fully charged up car in my garage
Except you will have an average movement radius, and charging will take all night long.

>muh fossil fuel
Do you seriously think those huge-ass, 3 years lifespan batteries filled with rare earth elements aren't way worse for earth-chan?

I guess its the average life of 100% capacity

Supposedly 90% capacity can go 20yrs tho

I really wanna know if we can repair broken batteries or if we'll run into a shortage soon

not sure what you mean about average movement radius, but charging at 240v takes 4 hours even for a huge battery tesla. also the batteries for most EVs look like they'll be lasting a really long time going by user submitted data. the nissan leafs are the exception but even beat-on taxis are still at like 80% capacity

Sorry for the broken english, I was speaking of the operative range.

Will you wait 4 hours at a gas station for the car to recharge when you're on a big trip?

no, which is why fast charging is a thing, 80% battery in 30 minutes
for day to day use, you just plug it in at the end of the day and no matter what it's fully charged by the next morning

i will say though, i'll never buy an EV with less than 300 miles of range. that's the bare minimum to be usable in all but the most extreme daily driver scenarios