Gnostic heretics

Paul is a Gnostic. Gnosis does not have any particular belief, it just a word that implies there is knowledge. He is still Christian, as well as a Gnostic. Same with John.

No? Just look up on who Irenaeus is

>tfw all history is propaganda

mind = blown

WTF IS A GNOSTIC

It's seriously like watching people discuss UFO stories.

This
Being a gnostic doesn´t make you less christian

That's not too far from the truth. The idea of impartial, objective review of history is a pipe-dream. History is a series of competing narratives and perspective.

A saint and church father?

I assume you believe that this automatically invalidates his writings which is why I asked if you were that poster.

It means mystical knowledge imparted to a person who believes they experience God for themselves.

It does not mean "worship 'lucifer' ", it does not mean "yhwh is the demiurge", there are many schools of thought, many. Some believe YHWH is the Monad, while others believe YHWH is the demiurge. Some believe the demiurge is evil, some understand Creation to be a good thing. There is no duality between the Father and the Creator, because the Father is thought and the Creation is the manifestation of thought and action.

wow you really cant know nuthin I guess

Christianity is a continuation of enochian Judaism and Gnosticism is a heretical splintering of Christianity.

End of Story.

Man it feels good to see someone post that finally. That is the power of God at work right there...

There are Gnostic elements in Enoch, Judaism, and Christianity. Gnosticism isn't a religion, but it is an aspect, a quality.

You could be a Gnostic Jew, a Gnostic Muslim, and Gnostic Christian, a Gnostic Buddhist, anything, all Gnosis means is knowledge, and the implication of that knowledge has to do with mysticism, revelation, and experience.

Jesus Christ, a Gnostic. Moses, a Gnostic. Enoch, who walked with God, that is Gnosis.

Well you can't. There's a reason that attempting to objectively understand something is compared to trying to pull yourself out of a bog by your ponytail.

> heretical splintering
or you could say, the guys who lost

whoah

Pfft. 1st Enoch is not gnostic.

Gnosticism tries to frame Yah as a demiurge evil entity. It's like Marcionism but more mystical with a bunch of incomprehensible junk about aeons and archons.

Enochs eschatology matches revelations however, and neither Paul nor Jesus said anything about a demi urge.

That simple.

Or you could say the guys who weren't favored by God.

Does that mean God is about to favor Islam in a few years?

Walking with God = Gnosis

Yah is not evil. That is a meme, overused by internet "gnosis", and YHWH is not the demiurge; depending on the school, though, the Demiurge is not evil, but many disagree. Kabbalah is a popular influence on modern Gnosis, and YHWH is very respected as the Most High to the Jews, most of them.

The reason why Jesus and Paul doesn't mention archons directly in the NT is because it is that simple, why would you reveal all that concealed information plainly? They definitely discussed openly with the other Apostles, but when it comes to writing, it is very often blatantly concealed.

Just to encourage you to read into it for yourself.

Walking with God = Faith

It's like no one has read Hebrews.

ot those who didn´t care about politics and kings and emperors

>he thinks Christianity won't /rise again/

Faith = Gnosis

>1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Faith IS Knowledge, certainty in what you cannot see.

The word for faith is πίστις "pistis" as in "Pistis Sophia" or Faith Wisdom

Faith is Wisdom and Knowledge, on the Tree of Life, these are the 2nd and 3rd spheres.

>2This is why the ancients were commended.…

commended means praised, the ancients, all of them revered the Gnosis

The gnostics were suppressed by the church even while the church was being suppressed by the empire. However it is true that gnostics do not care about the Kingdom of God.

The church also became an empire, and hated the Gnosis. Gnosis does care for the Kingdom of Heaven.

>They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you." (17:21 Luke)

The Kingdom is within us, around us, above us.

What an occultic obfuscation of terminology

Gnostics did cared but the whole martyrdom thing was just absurd

It isn't occult though, it is in plain sight, very available online, in books. It only seems occult because people choose to keep it hidden, even though the human soul that God made is readily equipped with the abilities to learn this stuff anytime it has an honest intention to do so.

Even Siddhartha taught Gnosis. It is all about application of what is taught. Yeshua taught Gnosis. We must apply the faith, knowledge and wisdom of these teachings.

>that they may be encouraged in heart, knit together in love, and filled with the full riches of complete understanding, so that they may know the mystery of God, namely Christ

The Mystery of God, namely Christ; what is this Mystery?

This is what Apostle Paul says about Gnosis in Colossians;

> 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

In Greek, the words σοφίας kαὶ γνώσεως ἀπόkρυφοι., transliterated "SOPHIA kai GNOSIS Apokryphoi", SOPHIA Wisdom and GNOSIS Knowledge, Apockryphoi means hidden

>4I say this so that no one will deceive you by smooth rhetoric.…

These are second and third spheres on the Tree of Life, though "Knowledge" in this case is associated with "Understanding", just top show Christians that Wisdom and Understanding(Knowledge) mentioned together are references to the Kabbalah, where Christ becomes the Crown

So is Gnosticism just the lovechild of Judaism and Platonism or something?

debatable, it was a mix of neoplatonism, Christianity and probably some Jewish mysticism via Christianity.

Many scholars would argue it was just an alternative line of Christianity rather than a heretical sect though the lack of bishops supporting it makes this claim suspect, as apostolic succession was the basis of all Christian communities by 2nd century AD, so it would have ad to evolve almost from the beginning not to be some sort of break away sect.

I think your the guy with smooth rhetoric Paul warned about

it´s not just one lovechild but like 50 of them kek

Pretty much.

I think the smooth rhetoric Paul warns about is "Gnosis is a 'heresy' "

>See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

I believe that the church I was a part of used the fact that they were a church to suppress knowledge. It was all based on stuff carried down for hundreds of years, an empty philosophy of hiding the gnosis based off of human traditions

It over complicates the simple gospel messege. That's why Paul said it wasn't wise words that converts a man but the simple message of the cross, which is love.

A lot of people get Christian mysticism confused with Gnosticism.

I believe essentially everything Justin believed, including his theory of the Logos, as it fits with everything I read in the Bible.

Except I'm an annihilationist. Bout the only difference between my philosophy and his.

Unlike many religious organizations, I strongly oppose the church having anything to do with government affairs and strongly support the doctrine of non resistance.

Gnosticism, with its nonsense concerning Holy Yah, and it's overly complicated system of aeons and archons and everything else is rightly called out on its heresy by Irenaeus.

I am aware however that Irenaeus was focused on only one kind of Gnosticism as there are many other branches.

I just can't stand the kinds that try to undermine the sin atonement of Christ Jesus's blood.

I think people like Irenaeus, who called people heretics all day, were the true heretics.

Gnostics don't undermine Christianity. You might have some weird sects that do, but everyone has their liberties to choose. Even Christians can choose between Orthodox, Gnosticism, Protestantism, or even Catholicism, and at the end of the day, everyone is sticking to their own

Reading this thread makes it abundantly clear that there is a lot of misinformation about "Gnosticism." First off it was not one organized movement but rather an umbrella term that captured a wide variety of beliefs that shared some common elements. Probably the most common unifying theme among the various gnostic sects was a strong belief in a dualistic cosmology where matter and spirit were fundamentally separate (which obviously put them at odds with the church on the issue of the incarnation of the Logos in the person of Jesus Christ.) Some gnostics used dualism to justify hedonistic lifestyles on the grounds that it didn't matter what one with their body because the spirit could not be damaged by indulging the flesh. Other gnostics were intensely ascetic because they saw the body as a cage for their spirit and it was only through disregarding their flesh that their spirit could be set free.

Another common element of the gnostic sects was that they were very similar to Greek mystery religions in that they were hierarchical based around the amount of "gnosis" (knowledge) possessed by an individual. This meant that new believers were essentially second class and had to "ascend" by accumulating gnosis from their teachers. This was fundamentally different from the early church because although the early Christians did organize themselves hierarchically (deacons and presbyters etc...) all believers were considered equal before God. Not so with the gnostics who believed that God gave special privileges to those who had accumulated enough gnosis.

So when people talk about "Gnosticism" it doesn't tell you very much about what they mean only that they're referring to a collection of belief systems that had something to do with Jesus but were rejected by the church.

Irenaeus was heretical for saying that a splintering of orthodox that claims God is evil and overcomplicates simple doctrine is heretical?

Riiiiight.

I'm the OP and I like your post

This. People like Iraneus gave gnostics a label that they did not used, grouped different sects up into that common label, not to mention the slander and persecution on them and OP has the gall to say that Gnostics are the revisionists

>Some gnostics used dualism to justify hedonistic lifestyles on the grounds that it didn't matter what one with their body because the spirit could not be damaged by indulging the flesh. Other gnostics were intensely ascetic because they saw the body as a cage for their spirit and it was only through disregarding their flesh that their spirit could be set free.
It is true. Many gnostics believe they can indulge in the flesh, which is where a lot of the "Lucifer" sects come in. Many Gnostics believed in self-control of the flesh for the sake of the Spirit.

Basically, Christ would teach gnosis to the disciples, the same way a guru removes the darkness from the disciples and teaches them about the spirit. You could read another sect that does a lot of extremely taboo rituals that would disturb even the most mature of persons.

It is an umbrella terms

This is a good post user, spread this word
-

I think that if someone calls someone else a heretic without full knowledge, they are the heretic, though I don't really believe that heresy is totally real, it is more of a meme. Jesus was a heretic to many people, and to others, they venerated Him highly.

I dunno, it's seems pretty reasonable that Irenaeus did what he did concerning a group of radicals teaching radically different things from Christ and the apostles.

Yeah, yeah I'm %100 in the right to accuse 'certain' gnostics of revising history when they're out there saying Christianity came from Gnosticism.

You got some groups that try to convince ppl Jesus wasn't even real.

>To show that I'm a person whose opinion should be taken seriously ill post a Facebook tier maymay

...

Justify Iraneus all you want but to take his word on the Gnostics as (no pun intended) gospel instead of basing your views on primary sources (which before the discovery of Nag Hammbi there were none) just shows how ignorant you are of the concept of historical reliability

What you are upset is misinformation at best. Revisionism is a step above , which is purging any primary records that would disagree and persecuting its followers.

Again you can justify it all you want, but what Christianity did to Gnosticism is closer to revisionism that whatever you are upset about on the Internet

Don't blame Christianity for anything that happened to the gnostics. By the time Constantine took control of the church, Christianity ceased to be what it was.

Irenaeus may step on your toes but I highly doubt he would condone the death penalty being put on gnostics in the 4th century.

>Christianity did to Gnosticism
That terminology in and of itself is evidence of it, since we're identifying one specific branch of Christianity that emerged as the entire thing, and lumping together a bunch of traditions as one singular thing separate from "Christianity."

Many Gnostics don't teach anything contradictory to Christ. It is a journey of the self, and also there were sects that exist now that do teach things contrary to Christ.

The goal is to rely on God's help to find it all for yourself

Gnosticism is controversial, so it makes sense why later groups of Christianity tried to shut it down.

Tell me more about this journey of 'self'

I understand what you all said about the problems of labels. Maybe Orthodox?

Okay!

Basically, we are all an energy/soul. Every religion believes we are a soul that is a part of God's entirety (Buddhism it's a little different, though all beings have Buddha nature). We also have a physical body with the 5 senses, a mind which is the sixth sense, and the soul, which is transcendental energy separate from the ego-self.

Through education and discipline, we start a journey. This isn't the best description, but basically, there are laws / dharma gateways that can be applied to our reality so that we can use the Gnosis to benefit others, ourselves, and ultimately serve God. We learn through Christ about the Father. Even in high understanding of the wisdom, there is still plenty more to learn.

You could know every word in the Bible, but, now you could learn every word in the Bible in the language it is written in. We could know all the stories, but do we know all the allegories and deeper meanings?

The goal is to attain the Highest Union to the Absolute. It is a process, and we are always learning something new all the time. This description doesn't do the justice; also not all things are easily explained, even in person, and many teachers do it better than someone like me trying to convey this... Though it is fun trying haha

That's so unchristian. Ew. The wages of sin are death and one must repent and believe that Jesus's blood atones for your sin. After that you receive the holy spirit and He guides you into all Truth and you go thru a process of sanctification.

You don't need all that fancy transcendental crap. You just need to believe Jesus will change your heart and trust in the Holy Spirit to make you more like Him everyday.

Simple.

>For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Not all Gnostics believe in docetism; the belief Christ seemed to exist / wasn't real in flesh.

The Apostles refute it; σαρkί·is the word for "flesh" and the Apostles and disciples as eye witnesses to the flesh.

Paul even uses the Greek word "spermatos" σπέρματος of David;Δαυὶδ in the "flesh" σάρkα and the translators used "seed" and "descendant", because it was more appropriate sounding, but the reality is that Paul said Christ is the sperm of David

Cool. Maybe I got a few preconceived ideas about gnostics. What is the one thing that unifies most gnostics in ur opinion?

manicheism and catharism are good examples of what a gnostic religion would have been

>But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

To be set free of sin to is apply what Christ teaches us. The wages of sin is death, in other words; karma. The effect is death, and it is cause of sin. What is sin? A misdeed. God and Christ give us commandments, when we break them, we understand the consequence. Buddha gives precepts, when we fail to keep them, we notice the disturbance in our self. We know what the right thing to do is, but we avoid it.

Jesus death is what makes Him known. Jesus suffering reminds us that we suffer with Him, we all have a struggle to bear.

>But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Even this passage gives us very little information about the Holy Spirit and what it teaches us, and what it is.

>Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

* a gnostic church would have been

It depends.

Gnostics are not always Christian; which in a sense, everyone is entitled to choose their beliefs. I don't really have an opinion on what ties "Gnostics" together, but what ties all of humanity together is that everyone is created in the image of God, all life is sustained by God's Spirit whether they accept God as real or not, and that we all have the potential to do great things for everyone around us, regardless of our religious differences. This is why I appreciate Siddhartha highly, because He teaches spirituality in a secular way, teaching liberation in the most practical sense that an atheist could slowly find their way through Sakyamuni Buddha; because through Christian teachings, it is very hard for someone to accept Christ as their Saviour with mere words. You have to teach them how to apply Christ's teachings into their daily life without condemning them, without being mean, we have to show what Christ teaches; rather than shout it. We have to accept others even if we disagree, rather than deny them Heaven within the first 5 seconds after hearing they are an atheist

Holy spirit is the third person of the Trinity, first appearing in early Genesis and making many other appearances through the old testament.

God is Love. Where there is love there is a lover, the beloved and the spirit of Love. If God is Love, he must be all 3 things. Father, son, and holy spirit.

Tada.

I'm really only against anything from Gnosticism that denies the atonement. Resurrection, the holy Father, or sound doctrine in general.

Karma has to do with what ur reborn as in the afterlife.

Too syncretic...

I think the Holy Spirit is always more than we define, same with the Father and Son. The inward meanings we find for ourselves, I guess that is the journey.
>I'm really only against anything from Gnosticism that denies the atonement. Resurrection, the holy Father, or sound doctrine in general.

That is the best part for you though or anyone else, you accept atonement, the resurrection, the Father and sound doctrine? You can always hold that true to your heart especially learning about Gnosis. I used to be discouraged because everyone says "no the gnostics believe this, the gnostics believe that" and then I realized, I believe this, who cares what an apparent majority thinks or believes? That's just my to cents, I think it's definitely important to find Gnostic teachers likeminded with very similar beliefs as opposed to a Gnostic sect you disagree with.

>Karma has to do with what ur reborn as in the afterlife.

Just to add to this, karma is also the law of cause and effect. All beings are subject to it through action, which is karma itself. Because you are cold, the action is putting on a sweater and the effect is being warm. That is karma. Or; "I'm broke I have no money" is the effect, and the cause is spending all of it on candy at the store.

Application of karma to the words; sin, death, eternal life, is that sin is negative action, death is the effect of that action, eternal life is the final state where karma is paid off (though that is a minor association, people write very large books about karma and all different kinds of applications go into it I'm still learning I'm just giving some low quality ideas and opinions I've learned along the way

Fair enough... I guess.

...I had another anti-gnostism meme, but I dont think your the kind of gnostic I want to use it against.

I Wikipediad both of those. Heretical as get out of town. Especially catharism

yeah there´s nothing more heretical than minding your own business

This thread that I started is my business, and I'm enjoying my business immensely

Finally someone who understands. I enjoyed your post very much. I think I have found my new board.

Actually, I've thought about it.

When you say you could know every word in the bible in the language it's written in, it flew over my head.

Your talking about a symbolic language, and when you speak of deeper meanings, that sent up a red flag.

What do you mean by deeper meanings?

I mean for little "easter eggs " like these
--OR just a general sense of how much more beautiful and more sense it makes in its original Hebrew

As for deeper meanings, that is also part of the "journey" poorly defined in this post -

If only we had the original Hebrew gospels

Papias, you teaser.

You know what would be awesome if they distributed more Bibles set up like the Gita that Prabhupada writes.

It has the Samskrit; then the transliteration; then tells you what each word from the transliteration means; then it has the English text; then it has a purport summary of pretty much each verse

There's nothing deep about polluting Christian doctrine with eastern mysticism.

People are so mentally trained to see the superficial similarities that don't appreciate the deeper differences.

You just end up with the dharma in Christian garb.

They have one tool. Lies. You're asking them to give up the only thing they have.

I wish they would listen to you.

It's called a Greek interlinear bible

Christianity and Eastern Philosophy have more in common. People are also more mentally trained to see the superficial differences rather than the deeper similarities.

I learned all I needed to know about kabbalah from the statement "Moses used the 72 names of God to part the Red Sea".

Hidden, occultist knowledge is satanic, not godly.

Godly mysteries were things once not revealed that have now been revealed, i.e. salvation was always meant for both the Jews and the Gentiles.

That's it? "Lies"? Where is the source for that? I think that is your opinion because you disagree with what it teaches.

They should print more of them

Show me in Eastern Philosophy where Jesus is the Creator of the world, died for the sins of mankind, and rose again on the third day.

It's from the bible.

1 John 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Those are your gnostic forefathers, leaving the truth for lies, powered by the spirit of antichrist, as you are.

I disagree.

There is more to Kabbalah than that "thing you read that one time", nothing about it is Satanic, and the information is meant to be used for the common good, such as parting the Red Sea to bring Israel to Salvation. That isn't satanic.

There are always more to the "revealed" mysteries, their is this illusion that we know everything, it is just isn't the case. It is more Satanic to tell a Christian not to look for more revelation because "don't worry, it's already been revealed, just come back to church"

It's all satanic.

Pharisaical Judaism is satanic. Did you not read Jesus' account of them? Den of vipers? Synagogue of Satan? Whitewashed sepulchers, clean on the outside, but inside full of dead men's bones?

That is where the superficial lenses will trip you up. Even in Christianity, to say "Jesus created the world, died for mankind's sins, and rose again on the third day", you are only giving the exoteric meaning, the literal meanings, rather than expand the mind and the understanding of the truth of Jesus and His wisdom.

It makes me personally upset that Christians believe they can just define Jesus' ministry to "He died and rose again that's it repent", it really is so much more than that

John talks about those who believe in Docetism, who denied the body of Jesus

John is a Gnostic, and the Apostles argued that Jesus was a flesh being

Pharisee Judaism isn't satanic. Jesus argued at those Jews who had religious hypocrisy, which led to His crucifixion. Jesus didn't like how they gloated their devotion for the praises of the people, not every Jewish person does this, most of them are regular people like you and me and are devoted to God.

Just because you might disagree with something doesn't mean it is actually "satanic"

Bullshit.

1 Cor. 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There are 2 distant statements presented here both referring the ‘message of the cross’.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing
For the message of the cross to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

What is the message of the cross?

The message of the cross is the ‘the power of God’ to those who are being saved
- The message of the cross is able to save and cleanse and redeem; and make holy.
- Salvation is not by human might, human reason, or human effort but only by the power of God, by "Christ crucified."

The message of the cross is the ‘wisdom of God’ to those who are being saved

- It isn't human wisdom or philosophy that is able to save.
- Souls are saved only by the cross of Jesus, by Christ crucified.
- The cross means the doctrine that Christ died for sinner upon the cross
- Christ died as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of people

The message of the cross is a ‘traumatizing message’

- A brutal, awful death on that cross and one of absolute torture.
- Scourged, Beaten, Spit upon, Beard Plucked, Mocked, Nailed to the Cross

The message of the cross is a ‘simple message’

- The Bible tells us that the way to be saved is for the sinner to accept by faith
- It is not about you quitting your sins! It is about you coming to Jesus by faith!
- It's not about turning over a new leaf, but placing your faith in Jesus and Him alone

Yes, I prefer the truth to carefully crafted lies.

At least you admit that nowhere in "Eastern Philosophy" are such statements made, belying your earlier comment.

Which was also a lie, as is your statement that John was not condemning gnostics, and was one himself.

You are a good son to your father, the father of lies. You enjoy lying, and enjoy carefully crafted lies. Just like he does.

Agreed

It's absolutely satanic.

The satanic gospel is "take the knowledge of good and evil, do good, and avoid evil, and thus be like God."

This was a reply meant for someone else