Freedom

Skullbone
Skullbone

What'd be the consequences of eliminating world debt and interest, and limiting the amount that the wealthy can legally own in order to fund the world? Is it the only feasible expediency to a life of economic slavery and suffering of the poor? Finally how long until we do reach this idyllic world of freedom under the current constraints of the system? Is a revolution of the laws of the economic world actually a complete necessity for this or do we just have to wait half a millennia like cattle to the monetary abattoir? All I see is a lot of shit regarding lack of money and I'm looking for the way out, not rabbit holes.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Ability to accrue wealth is directly proportional to incentive to work

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

then we default on loans and the dollar crashes

dollar crashes we fall into a dark age

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

What'd be the consequences of eliminating world debt and interest
Global economic collapse.
limiting the amount that the wealthy can legally own in order to fund the world
How does that work, exactly?
Finally how long until we do reach this idyllic world of freedom under the current constraints of the system?
I dunno, how long until WW3 and a post-apocalyptic wasteland where this could happen?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

what would happen if we cap the incentive for those who create tangible goods?

well, we would cap the tangible goods produced. its fucking retarded to think "oh, if the government took all the money from the rich then everyone could live in a mansion" because, even IF the numbers DID add up (don't think they do but let's say they did) then you STILL couldn't give everyone a mansion because there's A.Not enough mansions now and B.No incentive for anyone to go out and create more.

the reality is that the means of production is as decentralized as its ever been and poverty is the lowest its ever been. Massive entities are incapable of making informed decisions on the micro scale, which is why even major corporations have some degree of decentralization.

TLDR: take an economics course retard

askme
askme

Ok so give an upper limit, say, 1million-5million? I'm not sure on where morally it is right to say "right bitch, that's enough with the gold n diamonds".

we could just like, make it so it doesn't crash. USA aren't the only debtors.

So you're saying never; this world isn't heaven nor hell, it wasn't made to be balanced, it's just a bit of a game and then we all die. Sounds like bullshit to me.

There's no incentive because not everyone wants to live in a mansion (I don't).

Ok so decentralization is a bad thing because it's a sign that the government can't wipe it's arse properly?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Sounds like bullshit to me
Sounds like reality to me. The world wasn't "made" at all. The universe doesn't give a shit about you or what you think is fair.

Techpill
Techpill

Also I'm talking about a total grandscale life bringing act, like no mortgage (or no need) and total elimination of poverty (not slowly eking out money over generations of suffering).

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Absurd. To think the universe created itself to abandon itself. That's pure nihilism.

RavySnake
RavySnake

Who says the universe was created at all? In the sense that there is no objective meaning to things, nihilism is right. That you wish it were otherwise has no bearing on the reality of the situation.

Nojokur
Nojokur

How does something which exists not get created? Life symbiotizes on what it thinks will improve it and if it does not, it gets wiped out. From that I can easily argue that there is definitely a better meaning and a worse meaning to discover and act upon. Is the meaning of life to become obese and die from cardiac arrest? No. That's a bad lifestyle and shows a lack of attachment to meaning from the individual, not the universe, the universe goads us to better ourselves in the best way, we squander it in nihilistic catatonia, complacent laziness, and idle-minded destruction.

5mileys
5mileys

How does something which exists not get created?
If time and space are part of its existence.
Life symbiotizes on what it thinks will improve it and if it does not, it gets wiped out.
Evolution does not involve conscious thought.
From that I can easily argue that there is definitely a better meaning and a worse meaning to discover and act upon
Your premises are false.
the universe goads us to better ourselves in the best way
No, it doesn't.

Accept that any meaning you give to your existence is subjective and deal with it.

Flameblow
Flameblow

total elimination of poverty

oh, your idea is to eliminate poverty? wow, genius! why didn't anyone else think of that!

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

There's no incentive because not everyone wants to live in a mansion (I don't).

missing the point this badly

Ok so decentralization is a bad thing because it's a sign that the government can't wipe it's arse properly?

i didnt say anything about the government specifically.

DeathDog
DeathDog

Time and space
1 requires motion and the other is a body. The real question is what created the moving balls and the laws which attract them (immutable btw which corroborates an objective law of action rather than a purely subjective one).

Evolution
Yes but you cannot deny that thought's and concepts have evolved just as the unconscious did in the past

I would like to see how you find my premises false, seeing life as the primary principle to goodness in my 'opinion'.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Well then we could rely on a well wrought government to handle business so that greed doesn't overlap human freedom and welfare. Yeah I do think it's pretty cliché but it affects me terribly when I have to spend my life working off a debt to some failing and (for some reason) incontrovertible government scheme when the wealthy are able to sit back and live off of a business they barely even commute with anymore. I want to be able to not work but also not to be a greedy drain on the socio-economic system (not that the business was necessarily bad).

Supergrass
Supergrass

you've completely failed to address what I said and are now just repeating you're same retarded rhetoric.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Also, people are dumb and slow. I can't stand charities. A large body of people need to sort it all out, now, like I'm 100% sure it could be if the rich didn't find that notion, 'unwieldy'.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

1 requires motion and the other is a body.
As far as we know, time and space are part of the universe and only exist if the universe exists.
The real question is what created the moving balls and the laws which attract them
Why do you keep assuming that something created them?
objective law of action
laws of nature are just descriptions of what we observe occurring, not prescriptive rules that force anything
Yes but you cannot deny that thought's and concepts have evolved just as the unconscious did in the past
Sure. Relevance?
I would like to see how you find my premises false
I already showed how.
seeing life as the primary principle to goodness in my 'opinion'.
It's fine if that's your subjective opinion. It just isn't objective.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

So where would the money come from to pay this debt? Also personally I'm a debt buyer and am owed a lot of money as a business/investment.

I wouldn't want the principal payout immediately and would refuse it if I could.

But if I had to accept it, what's to stop me from lending it out again immediately?

askme
askme

Well people would compromise on not having a fucking mansion of all things I reckon. The society I propose is much better than the one they currently live in so they'll just adopt it. The valuable will have the mansions, that'll be the same I suppose. I don't know what I haven't addressed here.

Because lending is simply illegal now. No interest either. Everyone gets what they necessarily need and lawsuits exist to stop people milking the government investment system buying and losing extraneous things. So no need to wait and protract and squeeze your debtor anymore, no more being a boa in a shark tank.

What I'm trying to find out is how to make that sort of world viable.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Come on, laws of nature aren't prescriptive rules? How trolling do you need to be? Space is clearly the universe itself, the fundamental, and the fact that every consequence has a cause leads me to believe their was a creating effect. I'm not saying a 'creator' per se, but rather that laws abide to order, e.g. mass always compacts to a circular shape, circles have only 1 side, so the universe's (or life's since life is birthed on one of these spheres and not inside nebulae, though I don't discount their probable relevance in some butterfly effect occurring) aim is to become holy; such as, making sure all life is content as you wish yourself (1) to be, or, humanity (1) species which you conform to. That way the whole living section of the universe wishes to be as each other (the tiger eats the deer to become it, the deer gets eaten to become the tiger. Or if not eaten, returned to the sphere from which all monetary assets we use are built up from).

Emberburn
Emberburn

I mean holy as in wholly as well as the former sense.

SniperGod
SniperGod

What I'm trying to find out is how to make that sort of world viable.

It's not.

And attempts in that direction always fail, and the failures sometimes result in mass starvation or other catastrophes. You can start reading here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

But there are many other examples from history.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Sounds bad, no loans for public projects or new business.

Also you've failed to address where the money will come from to pay back the debt.

Honestly it sounds like you're trying to solve the wrong problem

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Come on, laws of nature aren't prescriptive rules?
Correct.
How trolling do you need to be?
Not at all, this is basic science.
the fact that every consequence has a cause leads me to believe their was a creating effect
Fallacy of composition / appeal to common sense.
aim is to become holy; such as, making sure all life is content as you wish yourself (1) to be, or, humanity (1) species which you conform to
This is just a subjective assertion coming from you.
That way the whole living section of the universe wishes to be as each other
New Age drivel.

Are you a troll or just high?

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Usury Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Walk Away From The Loan Like Nigga Close Your Eyes Haha

girlDog
girlDog

For the sake of hording leaderships I bet. Running where you have no ground is stupid. Let the money we have circulate where it is needed and not to the complete destitution of anyone.

No, I say that every government will have a reserve for gifts to upcoming business propositions (where they haven't already become state-run like the replacement of walmart with 'AMERICA MART' or something more catchy and hip with people). And upon failure to profit or succeed they get terminated and the money is taken back.

If there is simply not enough money to go around I'll stop and become a nihilist like that other guy but since I've read that the money from the world's richest could solve poverty 4 times over, I'm a little skeptical (actually very) over how free capitalism can actually cause the opposite of freeness.

The problem is the only problem. My ability to buy a house from state run welfare as soon as I turn 18 is what I wish for in this world and by God I'm not going to stop unless I see it with my own eyes.

farquit
farquit

The net worth ceiling would be a good thing, but the people who pass these laws are the same ones who don't want a ceiling.

askme
askme

The net worth ceiling would be a good thing

Really? So you would have wanted Steve Jobs to stop working after the Apple II?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

So you don't want to be content? You don't want anything. You want death and total annihilation.

I would believe that it's a fallacy but that we believe in entropy which means that something has to start it again once it all collapses, but that the very fundamental of the universe, the ether, may be eternal and that eternality should be dubbed perfect harmony because no amount of discord can destroy it itself. So if the basis of the universe is harmony why shouldn't all of it's subjects follow suit? That's a reverse fallacy of composition but you're so keen to believe that everything is a lie anyway.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

A large body of people need to sort it all out, now, like I'm 100% sure it could be if the rich didn't find that notion, 'unwieldy'.

It doesn't matter though because the majority are poor and the people decide the laws as long as they are organised enough to put them together. We just need to stay idyllic but also fixed in the best that reality can offer.

whereismyname
whereismyname

What I want would also be subjective.

The rest of what you said is gibberish, confirming that you are either a troll or high. There's nothing to suggest that something will "start" it again once we reach maximum entropy, the "ether" hypothesis was discredited long ago, and then you spout more New Age drivel.

I'm not keen to believe that everything is a lie, but what you say is bullshit.

TechHater
TechHater

True but just because one person has musical anhedonia doesn't mean we should stop making music cause this one guy doesn't need it. To withhold money at the side effect of pauperism is like holding on to poison ivy cause you wanted to see what it does.

Yeah the universe could end forever I guess. The ether isn't discredited, it's a necessary function to explain light propagation through space-time (and eventually gravity) but they may not name it so, they'll make it out to be the intrinsic function of it, which it is, so idc.

Not everything I say is bullshit, I'm trying to find truth and I'm a novitiate on this topic so I came to ask for it and I got what I expected from Veeky Forums. It seems you agree with me anyway by painting nihilism in such a poor light in that comic (I don't see how you can say either of those people which caricature nihilism are in correct virtue, even if they're able to think they are, much like how a schitzo feels he sees and talks to Jesus when that's not physically manageable (currently, or, ever)).

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Ok so magical government money will ball everyone out. The govt is in heavy debt though, so good luck with that.

But I am in favor of consequence free zero percent loans like you suggest. Sign me up for a million dollars. My business is me taking expensive vacations, lol. What a surprise, though, it failed and gets the last five bucks that's left. You can keep that.

On to my next business... I'll need another million btw

viagrandad
viagrandad

A progress check? Soon that's all anybody will be doing and business will be simply and idea and then boom, robots play all the parts for you and transactions will be less complicated because of the no interest.

Heavy debt returns to somewhere. I think we should resolve how much in assets we really have and then work from there. Magic isn't real m8, sorry to tell you like this, in Veeky Forums of all places, land of the majickal jew scrolls which can bail you out of any sticky sitch.

But seriously no one could take that many liberties without being checked on. You'll have the red eye of HAL on you until your business becomes proper in the eyes of your creditor.

TreeEater
TreeEater

The red eye of HAL, omg you are hilarious! Seriously, give it up. You're on the completely wrong track with this, solving the wrong problem.

Nice troll though.

SniperGod
SniperGod

What's the problem? How to get a career doing something you despise just to get by while the world's still shit? I'd really like to know the right track so I can get on it ASAP. I'm not just a troll, I need to know this to better purpose my life to achieve what is going to be, but sooner.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

What I mean by 'You're on the wrong track' is that you're demonizing debt, thinking that getting rid of it will somehow solve society's ills. It will not.

Debt is just a tool, like a hammer. You can use it to build something useful or to smash your hand up. It's up to the person and it's not for you or anyone else to say what someone else should do with it. That's what I mean.

As for what you should do with your life, that's a totally different question. But realize that it's a very tough question and don't be too hard on yourself for not knowing right off the bat.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

No debt means no investments.

A limit on how much you can own means people create vehicles that own the wealth.

You're welcome.

SniperGod
SniperGod

Some communes would start recreating debt and probably after a long enough time it would spread again because debt-free societies would get outcompeted by debt-based societies. What is debt? It means borrowing horses, ships, gold, paper. And then you return those things and pay a fee (interest). There will always be people with ideas but lacking assets and people having assets but lacking good ideas. Debt is a contract between a surplusholder and a debtholder. Trust in one another, in a project and in the future leads to more debt.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

terminating debt would terminate banks.

actually all the money you own right now can vanish in one day. how? the bank invests into treasury bonds from the government. everytime the government give a loan and that money is lost your money is lost too.
all money in this world is loaned even the money you earned with hard work and stored away. this is why people resort to bitcoin and precious metals.

if you ask me, put half of your wealth in assets or metals, carry only cash and get rid of credit cards

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

if you ask me, put half of your wealth in assets or metals, carry only cash and get rid of credit cards

This guy is stone cold nuts, or just ignorant.

If half of your wealth is in "assets or metals", what's the other half in? Or perhaps you have an idiosyncratic definition of assets.

In any case, metals should be no more than 5% of your assets. And the only reason to avoid credit cards is if you're just terrible with money and charge shit up the wazoo and don't pay your bills, in which case you have a lot more problems than where to invest your money.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

I think I really should concern myself with how debt is being managed when I hear and read everyday about things which have no money and more government spending needs to be done when we're already drowned in apparent loans that need to be paid. I feel like my life's over by living it.

If a world without debt is unreal and one with it is leaving 15% in the shit, the answer must be to take from the rich as remuneration for the poor and debts ride their blazing trail to eternity.

These vehicles can be used for all people's good.

Very pessimistic, if the grant to the debtholder was given by official hands and the assets purchased by the debtholder were monitored, then any failing company could be dismantled and sold back for the money they gave (given we haven't a fluctuating market). Debt to me seems like a method of enslavement by the rich to the poor by creating pools of debt-traps that our governments have to chase after, like the interest-based debts really existed at all.

w8t4u
w8t4u

Government should be able to finance people's bills once the freer energies come into play and any loans (or grants) from them can be deducted from your welfare charter until it's payed off.

From what I've seen, 97% of wealth is just loans waiting to be taken away and 3% is paper and alloy physical cash (some percent of that wealth must be real assets, I hope over 50% at least but I may be even getting what assets are wrong).

Snarelure
Snarelure

the other half should be cash. you should have 1 credit card for buying stuff quickly. but i generally recommend to avoid it since the commissions can reach up to 19%

SniperGod
SniperGod

the other half should be cash

So half my wealthy should be in an asset that has zero return and after inflation will be a negative return? Nah.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

You are talking about "official hands" and "our governments" as if there is a proven and easy methodology of finding people with superior morals to work for the government. Debt-based capitalism sounds more morale to me than the inevitable dictatorship of a nomenklatura your idea could lead to.

Lunatick
Lunatick

Just make the laws against any immorality, have lawsuits which the debtors are able to claim against unfairness of the governing body supporting them and have the people joining be educated in proper morality and pick the most intelligent for the most difficult to support cases. And of course, the most important, have me as the ruling monarch overlord of the whole system.