/4ccg/ - mistake edition

I don't expect people to always respond neutrally to people being inflammatory or spreading misinformation. In discord it's a lot less clear.
He didn't say he used trip on once. He said he used a known name. Because DF was totally transparent about the fact he was polling /cm/.

While I don't disagree that JB is prone to being 'hi im JB!', dtroit is a terrible pick for /merit/. He does the same thing but worse with a touch of 'haha im drunk xB'

Problem with JB is his inflated ego after winning in diceroll competitions. Sure he isn't clueless but he attributes too much to himself and not pes like he should.
esports were a mistake.

twitter.com/johnnybravofit/status/888947416795316224

See If managers are responsible for making the autopilots, then we're still stuck in a situation where managers are blamed/credited for outcomes that are driven by RNG, so we'll still have the toxic culture. Removing nightlies isn't enough. Removing mind games is impossible.

Even bad managers don't say that PES is a diceroll. It's almost exclusively anons. I think maybe they know more about the game than you do.

We're fundamentally in disagreement about the desirability of complete randomness.

PES is a dice roll. It's weighted to an extent, but to a smaller extent than many managers make out.
t. """successful""" former manager

That's fair.

There's then comfystreamer Boris who is such a chill dude you wouldn't tell he's annoyed by the cup antics.

That's why I said it would be a better pick on those grounds but I still don't think either of them are good enough. Dtroit is more likeable but on top of that his 'personality' gets the better of him. He comes off as less of srs esports guy.

Posting on your personal twitter about the team you coach feels very Manager FC.

Around the managers there's a notion that "Getting PESed" is a thing. It's a weighted dice roll and managers are trying to make a difference to that weighted dice.

t. Person who has never tested.

While I agree with the statement about dicerolls, when every team is even stats-wise, that small amount of weight and knowing what to do with it is the difference maker between teams like /lgbt/ and the rest of the pack, or bad teams like /y/ and the rest of the pack. And I think it at least takes some good knowledge of PES to get that weight to stay out of the rest of the average pack.

Oh please, stop pretending.
I would attribute wins to a manager skills if they were actually controlling the team themselves.
Sure making a good export and tactics and game plan gets the edge but shit like 16(11) 0-1 1(1) games still happen.
Another example, Veeky Forums wouldn't have had a star if they lost at penalties in Winter 16, is it not diceroll?

Just because getting PES'd is a thing doesn't make it a 100% dice roll. I'd argue it's 75/25 in terms of skill/luck. It's why managers who are constantly good are good and why consistently bad managers are bad

Watch the /d/-/m/ match and tell me, with a straight face, that /d/ didn't get fucked by PES.

Veeky Forums also would have had a star regardless if the aforementioned 16(11) 0-1 1(1) kind of game didn't happen against them.

Just because there are games where a team wins despite being clearly outplayed, doesn't mean PES is a total diceroll. Please, go back and count for me how many of those games actually happen.

Have you ever actually watched a football game in your entire life? These things happen. Is real football a diceroll? Is life a diceroll? Does nobody have control over fate because sometimes they get the worst roll possible? Just because a computer generates the result, doesn't mean that perfection exists. That's what RNG is for. But to act as if PES isn't a seriously, seriously weighted dice roll is retarded. Boo hoo, sometimes the 5% fluke result happens, even to the most successful of managers. What about the other 95% where the better team wins by playing better?

This.
Tactics that conform to the meta or hard counter a particular opponent are more likely, on statistical average, to win, but cups aren't won and lost on the best averages. They're won and lost based on outliers, single matches that we decide matter because they're on stream, and in that context RNG makes a much, much greater impact than any manager ever could.

While I helped manage, /myteam/ achieved one of the longest lossless streaks in cup history and stayed elite for 2.5 years straight, and is among the elite cup champions. The biggest factor contributing to our success was RNG and I've taken pains to point that out whenever possible. We worked very hard during those 2.5 years, but that had more to do with the expectations of being a manager in a """"serious competition"""' and less to do with actually being able to force victory through testing. I'm proud of our work, but it's the same pride as you'd have for accurately calling heads or tails so many times in a row. At the end of the day, it's still random.

>75/25 in terms of skill/luck
more like 25/75
any player decision lies within pes and they won't follow your instructions like you want them to no matter what you do.

Keeper does retarded shit like slowly rolling the ball so enemy striker gets it? Pes
Keeper spergs out receiving a backpass and it rolls into the net? Pes
Player does retarded clearance right to the opponent in front of the net? Pes
Gold all 99 striker with no defenders on him misses 1on1 with a keeper? Pes
There are many more examples of that.
Point is, you are not in control and during the game all you can do is try to steer the tide in your favor with no guarantee of success.
And why is that you ask? Because there is no controller in your hands to make decisions, pes makes them for you.

Totori?

I never said cups are won and lost on averages. I said the teams that consistently break the pack and, while not necessarily win cups, stay successful and elite or stay shit and in the fetus, are the ones that either have a better understanding of PES meta, or are clueless about the game. Yes it's a case of randomness with cups being won on outliers. But there is absolutely some level of skill involved in consistently staying on one side of the coinflip, even if it's getting 4 heads out of 5 and losing in the QF instead of 7 out of 7 and winning the cup. Because PES is at heart a coinflip with every team having equal stats. But there's consistent weighting of the coin that people who can read the game that has existed for years, always has, and always will exist.

w-will autumn be /pol/'s season?

Hey /4ccg/ I'm about to become a fucking leaf ask me why I'm throwing away all pretense of dignity

It's basically commanding an army. The quality of the army depends on how you train them. The rest is in the hands of the battle flow.

Even a well prepared army can be devastated.

>Just because there are games where a team wins despite being clearly outplayed, doesn't mean PES is a total diceroll.
It actually does. Otherwise said results won't exist.
You can weight the result, your tactics can give you a +19 advantage to the roll, but that won't help if PES rolls a 1 for you, and gives a 20 to the australian with golden defender fetish and +2 tactics.
>Have you ever actually watched a football game in your entire life?
False equivalence, real kick-o-sphere is not played in PES.

Well then I'd love to see stats about many of our games compared to how many real games end in what people call a PESing because to me it seems like it's just a match engine designed to realistically simulated football, and you can weight it by being better tactically.

I want that wiki page rating.

It doesn't matter.

>There is absolutely some level of skill involved in consistently staying on one side of the coin flip
We'll have to agree to disagree. There is skill involved in driving up a statical average in a batch of, say, 500 tests of a single specific match. That's an environment where your managerial input can be measured and have meaningful results. Consistently winning cup matches? Not so much. You can create a 90% successful set of tactics, your opponent can run exactly what you tested against, and there's nothing at all you can do to prevent PES from dealing you a loss from that 10% on match day. None of us were PES geniuses (and more than a few people took pleasure in saying so whenever somebody else said we were gud) and it would be hubris to say "we won for a long time because we were so skilled and talented." We beat better team's than ours and lost to worse teams. It just happened that PES dealt out those results in a way that put us on top for a long time.

>someone finally realized the copypasta had a random image of the supreme champion duck in it

It's been a strange week

Holy shit this is so retarded that I'm struggling to find an explanation that your feeble brain will comprehend

>engine simulates football
>game simulates football
It's not that deep.

Now you are evading.
You mentioned I assume it was you how all teams are equal in nature, and now you are comparing them to the real life thing? That is a contradiction.
Sure stupid "pesd" results happen IRL and it is often a joke about how realistic pes in.
But when PESsing happens in actual pes, despite all your great weighted coinflips, it means RNG won.
And if RNG has such impact on the outcome, then it's only logical to conclude how it outweighs skill.
Your team wins and dies on a whim of pes whether if chooses to cooperate with you or not. Stop pretending it's something more.

Why are some exports shit then? Why do some teams like /k/ go years without a single win? RNG is king but its weighted dice.

All teams are equal in stats, and the weighted coinflip decides it. Managers have a lot of influence on the weight. There's a reason nobody runs all out/conservative except /an/ who got shut out twice in the groups for it. I'm a guy who jumped in halfway through the conversation.

weighted dice is still a dice.
End result is not guaranteed
And since that's the case, it means skill isn't an ultimate decider.
Simple as that.

Irrelevant to the original point that JB has better influence on the diceroll than others because he's perceptive of PES. Luck won him two stars. Skill let it happen in such short succession.

Luck won him two stars. Luck let it happen in such short succession.
Skill helped make the team that didn't suck.

Managers do not have a lot of influence. Some, but not a lot, and certainly not enough that anybody should be lauding people as geniuses.

Here's a concrete example from my testing this week. I ran a batch of 10 tests, identical setup for all matches. In that batch of 10 tests, I got results where /TeamA/ "deservedly" blew out /TeamB/, where /TeamB/ "deservedly" blew out /TeamA/, where each team got PESed, where both teams earned a draw, and where one team "lucked into" a draw. How skillful you receive either of those team's managers to be would depend entirely on which of those 10 games happened to be the one that got streamed during the cup. You'd rationalize why the specific match results proceeded logically from the sliders and formations and infer skill from that, but the reality is you'd be telling yourself a story spawned from confirmation bias. Those same sliders etc. could and do result in wildly different results of you run the game more than once. Which result you get is determined entirely by RNG, not by skill, and since isolated results decide which teams are successful in the cup, then that means RNG is the decider, not managers. This is why it makes me sad how hostile the cup community is. We tear each other apart over shit completely outside our control.

Win/loss streaks happen in a random environment too. A boxer on a winning streak is a good boxer. A guy guessing coin flips on a winning streak is a lucky guesser. There's a difference.

This.

He might or might not. See above. You cannot make that assessment based on what you see on stream. I could decide my own tactics randomly based on literal dice rolls and it's entirely within the realm of possibility that I'd win cup matches. Those successes would be no indication of how perceptive my dice were.

I guess SDA has been unlucky with /y/ all these years with his tictacs that could go all the way one day. A sad pure random with no shifted RNG with his choices.

yeah, and the /lgbt/ managers were really lucky to win 2 cups in a row! And /pol/ is just really unlucky, especially with their GSC export, how unlucky(lucky)!

/y/ denied /co/ a sure victory

...

I'm looking at recent managers and you can't honestly tell me with a straight face that guys like SDA, Miles, the /a/ council, Rillion, DocSax, Marshy, Lazyturd, RHS and the current /pol/ council are just unlucky. They're shit managers and if managers can be shit then you can get good managers.

Compared to random tactics, yes. But when two competent teams meet (ones who know not to run All out conservative silver defenders), they're basically equal. A good autist might tip his chance to win from 33% to 50%. But you'll never know from the one cup game who was the better team overall.

You morons chose not to read.
Skill and pes understanding helps create a good team that can win games.
But cup results are dependent on rng, ultimately

How could a proven tactic in a pes edition go all the way twice? Pure random odds with no weighted chance in their favor. Damn /lgbt/.

Are there any girls here?

we were posting about this a few days ago before /4ccg/ actually started discussing the cup, keep up

That was the point I was trying to make. Better to have somebody who knows how to get that extra 17% be the one to decide the rules than somebody who would take 17% chance away.

Everyone agrees that how matches go depends on a mix of both rng and tactical skill. Why are we arguing the degree of each? What are people trying to obtain?
It looks like shitposting for the sake of shitposting with no end, a pointless derail from the reasonable discussion we were having last thread that will end up with everyone forgetting about it.

Should have kept the TRASH

t. Manager cultists

Let's flip the script. How skilled and talented were /mlp/? My memory of 15-16 is that the consensus was that the horsefuckers were luck babbies who stole victories with 90+ luck, didn't know how to make good formations, and were shit at live management. Really, you couldn't read a single thread in those days without people lining up to explain in detail how shitty, unskilled, and lucky the /mlp/ managers were. But now, since it fits the narrative, cup wins = talent and deep PES knowledge. Which of you wants to step forward, then, and explain to me why you think BGP, Emulpee, PMB, and Darkbow were skilled managers that earned their two stars? Any takers? Feel free to trip on. Hey, if Veeky Forums having two stars means JB has keen PES insights, then surely BGP and PMB do too, right? How can it be otherwise?

PES is a diceroll to a certain degree, tactics only weight the dice in your favor/against you depending on how good or bad they are. >PES will still happen sometimes like Cast Iron Skillet, Bebop, ownthony goaltano or the GK slow rolls in old versions of PES though.
t. retired mediocre manager

/mlp/ were one trick ponies that turned to crap the moment their tactics stopped working in 17.

/clop/ were very good at managing. Its no coincidence that /mlp/ has declined since those guys starting moving on.

Let us have fun with an autistic argument concept.

Your example means that your teams are equal, so the result is at the whim of PES. You can get 10 games with a good counter where team A wins 7 games and loses only once. A good manager might be able to increase his chances of victory. Of course, you'll never be able to tell from the one game on stream. I know teams and managers who won on luck only, and were applauded as the better team. It's silly.

only girls(male)

Ironically if we consider interacting with the board, arranging aesthetics and updating the wiki the primary role of a manager some of these guys are actually good.

Agree on JB.
>put on autopilot duty
>immediately goes to manage a babby team instead and has to delegate

>/rules/
>didn't want to nerf overpowered demigods

>let HA dominate thrice before doing something about it

He's a good manager but a shit arbiter.

Careful. It *might* mean they're equal. You don't know what the final W/D/L was, first of all, and more importantly a batch of 10 tests is not nearly as indicative as a batch of 500. Run a batch of 500 tests and you can find a sequence of 10 tests that are almost all wins or all losses even if the aggregated result shows a 70% win rate, a 50% win rate, or a 30% win rate. A batch of 10 is a tiny, possibly very misleading snapshot of the true likeliness of victory or failure. That's really the scale people need to be looking at when talking about manager impact and skill. We don't even begin to approach that scale through the cup, so using cup results to jerk off over who is and isn't talented is ultimately so much head canon.

I agree they were good managers insofar as a manager can be good, but it very well could be a coincidence. That's the nature of RNG.

>Veeky Forums won two elite cups on different versions of PES because JB is a skilled manager with a good understanding of the game
>/mlp/ won two elite cups on different versions of PES because /clop/ were lucky one-trick ponies
Come on, man. This was exactly the response I expected and it's absurd. Either winning streaks and consistent cup placements are indicative of skill or they're not. You can't have it both ways based on which managers you like.

JB was never actually on autopilot duty, for reference. That's a thing /4ccg/ made up because they thought that was his job in /merit/ as manager adviser.

Did he actually get put on autopilot duty or was this just assumed?

Look at the variation of Veeky Forums's tactics, then look at /mlp/ playing the same shit over and over again and tell me I'm wrong.

I can't tell what the fuck anyone is actually arguing anymore but this is the first time since PES14 that /mlp/ has used the same tactics twice, because they were naive enough to think that 4 points in the elite would walk a babby. And in 14, it worked everywhere but 1.12. Both teams constantly change. Except the new guys. Who are in timing with /mlp/ going to shit.

From what I have seen, if you were given a long run to show results, PES evens out. Given enough matches, your setup will approach its mean, even if by PES force when you go on a long streak in one direction, then one about as long in the other.

The main problem in the Cup is you don't get a long run. You get three matches, which can range from anywhere between you having the perfect setup to crush your group of Elite champion copycats and having the perfect setup for your group of meme teams to Spoon you.

All we can do is weigh the dice and hope we weighted it on the right number.

t. tester

Well, yes, there's a possibility that one of the teams was a lot better and only got very unlucky in the 10 games.
What I wanted to point out is that the manager, or the tactics he chooses rather, do have influence, and can turn the 30% win rate into a 50% win rate, even on a larger sample. The 10 games might be flukes, but the better one team is the less likely it is you'll get a long loss streak, too. We can't say for sure what the chance percentages were, but you can tell a 50% win rate from 30% win rate on much less than 500 games. The probability of getting only 15 wins out of 50 games on an actual 50% win rate is very low. If you really want to tryhard and know your chances, you don't need to run 500 tests, unless you want your chances accurately down to a single percent.
It's not all luck, but praising a manager for winning single instances of a game is dumb, too.

benis

And mind you, all three games are against a different opponent and thus under a different set of conditions.
One team can spoon or mustard race on the same tactics and none of us would be any wiser. You can have the best team possible in PES and still lose, because not even the best team grants you a 100% victory. A team can lose all their matches, even though on aggregate, they had better chances to win each of those matches.

Everybody who honestly rates manager skills based on cup performance either never tested and fell for the memes or completely delusional.

LEAR'S TAKE

Why is he so bad at finding the new thread anons?

The cup isn't for people like you anymore. It's a sad and sorry thing, but that's just how it is. /4ccg/ and circlejerking has ruined the cup by making being a manager the hurt feelings championship if you don't succeed. You're never getting your cup of memes back. Not as long as long as being in the fetus instantly shitlists you from anything PES related until you mimic /lgbt/ and Veeky Forums successes. Not as long as testing for hours a day isn't enough to qualify for the elites. Not as long as who you're affiliated with completely destroys peoples opinions of you. Not as long as every season teams in the top 8/4 OF FIFTY TEAMS are deemed shit.

If your team is shit, and everyone around you is talking about how shit your team is, there's literally nothing you can do about it but test and that kills peoples enjoyment. If you do shit, it feels even worse because now you're responsible. If you don't do shit, people will still call you shit until you stay consistently elite. Or the moment you stop being elite you're now a fluke and a hack.
Congrats you 9 point the fetus. You're shit for being there. Congrats you made the babby KO. Only the top 3 wont yoyo! Congrats you made the elite KO. Oh you're getting relegated next cup because you didn't look good.

Welcome to the 4cc in 2017. It's toxic. It never changes. It never will change. The cup stopped being about memes years ago. There are 0 benefits to memes other than 'haha I beat the tryhards!' for 1 in every dozen failed efforts. Which people lambasted in /ag/L anyway. All risk. 0 reward. So everyone tries hard. They're afraid of being /k/ or /y/. The cup isn't about you anymore. And it never will be. Bitch all you like. Nothing will ever change.

I'm retarded.

ep*c have a (you)

I see this trip so often I actually started to think it's Lear's real one

>If we can keep all the shitty manager stuff away from the broadcast
The argument is that, so long as managers are in charge of tactics, that's extremely unlikely. Hell, I noticed this week that one of the game tips in the latest aesthetics pack circlejerks over Ducky and height abuse. Another one was some stab at "/mlp/ manager" hating fun. It's in the game tips and it's in the commentary booth.

You still have winners and losers and, thus, competition in a random environment, because the competition is between teams, not managers. Like was said earlier, people fall in love with the cup before they even learn that managers exist. People check out the cup because it's inspired by Veeky Forums, not because they heard managers are involved. There is a subset of the community that is invested in the excitement of manager vs. manager, true, but I think this is a very small subset and most everybody agrees that seeing the cup as manager vs. manager breeds cancer.

There's also the toxicity of the community to address. You could eliminate manager circlejerking from the stream and the community would still be a shit hole so long as "team success = manager success" continues to be the mentality, and since what goes on stream is pulled from the community, it will inevitably leak onto the stream.

I was scrolling through the old thread and just posted when I hit 2k words. Also Ramlbing continued.

>I'm a amanger who is burned out
Step down. if you feel the Cup is a chore then get your team ready to be an autopilot and walk away. If I wasn't having fun on every match day I wouldn't be here and if you aren't having fun do something in your life you can have fun with instead of this.

>fuck livemanaging
I agree. I proposed in #suggestionbox that changes shouldn't be allowed in the first half instead of 20 minutes and also I wanted that with exception of red cards happening you couldn't drag players around the pitch. Teams have 3 presets and they should use them instead of changing things around all on their starting preset. I think seeing a team turn themselves around at critical times is exciting but nobody is here for Pro Evolution Menu Simulator.

>X should be in /merit/ and Y should be out
/merit/ is an administrative group and despite the name is not a meritocracy. For me I more want someone in /merit/ who is capable of bringing ideas and discussion to the table comes before "hey I did a thing let me in". I feel people being ded in /merit/ is not an issue as long as there are sufficient liv people to carry any discussion that needs to happen. The biggest ways it can be an issue is if they revive and are completely out of touch or things need to have a full on vote. The former has happened much less than people reviving with insight and there hasn't been a full vote in /merit/ and if one happened I would respect the result under the assumption that the ded people (NBD, Gracen, half point for Note and Ved) didn't count for either side.

Assumed.

Good. I think this NotLear business is actually a conspiracy to make shitposters like me lurk /w/. I always end up there.

RealLear has better papers , though

>I feel people being ded in /merit/ is not an issue as long as there are sufficient liv people to carry any discussion that needs to happen

Yeah, I'm not that picky and most of /w/ is 1080p. I have a 1440p monitor.

>phone

People check out the cup because they saw a cup thread or discussion on their board, ideally from a manager discussing the roster or making the thread. They're aware that managers are a thing during game livemanagement. This gives you a feeling of control, a representative of /yourboard/ is feeding tactics into the rigmachine, and that's cool.

If you go full random, people will still shit on boring teams and hate on them for winning, you just removed the scapegoat. Team success becomes dice success. Some teams will still be permafetus. You're not fixing anything that simply having better commentator standards won't fix, and you're introducing other problems that affect the cup.

>livemanaging changes
So was that shot down or will it be happening? Because those sound like a good first step. Working on pre-match setup would make for a great second one.

>nobody is here for Pro Evolution Menu Simulator.
I uh, actually like the tikitaks quite a bit

Managing changes and pre-match setup go hand in hand. If you limit or adjust what managers are allowed to do, you can streamline pre-match rigging.

For what it's worth, no current manager should be a part of /merit/. It's a conflict of interests. Suggestionbox is good enough for manager input (when it's not shit posting)

Yes, that's why I suggested pre-match setup as the next thing to do.
It's mostly the first match mindgames, though, subbing conditions doesn't take much time and it can even be done during anthems.

So close, so far.

>People check out the cup because they saw a cup thread or discussion on their board,
Yes
>ideally from a manager discussing the roster or making the thread.
There is literally nothing superior about a manager-created thread. In fact, threads created by user fans are more indicative of board interest.
>They're aware that managers are a thing during game livemanagement.
Are they? That explains why my board's cup threads always have people asking if this is live and whether the players are controlled by people playing online.
>This gives you a feeling of control,
This is being much too overstated, especially when anons on the just get told to take a hike with their tactical suggestions.
>a representative of /yourboard/ is feeding tactics into the rigmachine, and that's cool.
I've never, ever, ever seen "managers" given as a reason why people outside the circlejerk like the cup. Aesthetics, commentators, funny players, but never managers.
>If you go full random, people will still shit on boring teams and hate on them for winning,
That's fine.
>you just removed the scapegoat.
And *that's* the goal.
>Team success becomes dice success.
It already is. See the last thread.
>Some teams will still be permafetus.
True, but this isn't a problem necessarily nor is it a potentiality that random tactics is designed to solve. Reminder that we already have permafetus teams even with live managers.
>You're not fixing anything that simply having better commentator standards won't fix,
The critical difference is that nobody, including Lear, can control what people say on stream. He can control who goes on stream and that's it. Good luck convincing him to block Cyclo from every commentating again and good luck getting Cyclo to stop circlejerking on air. If you divorce tactics from management, Cyclo no longer has any reason to circlejerk over managers.
>and you're introducing other problems that affect the cup.
I also prefer small problems to big problems.

>some stab at "/mlp/ manager" hating fun.
That was edited by me to avoid name dropping PMB. I edited names out of most quotes that weren't streamers or similar people to the broadcast and removed a lot that were from comfy streamers and the like but I felt that quote would get enough of a laugh that it was worth it if I just took out the name.

I think that even if you aren't invested in manager vs manager that knowing that your team's fate isn't just from what they were randomly assigned it's people from the board trying their best makes it better. That's something I felt when I was just someone new to the Cup. It made the idea of seeing my teams facing certain other teams scary since they'd play similarly to the previous Cup and it also gave me an expectation for what any team really could acomplish and being surprised in both directions was part of the wonder.

>toxic culture
You'll have to be more specific about how people in the Cup act, that's a very broad hand wave of everything you see as problematic.

People weren't that hot on what I proposed so I dropped it. The day 1-2 nightly stuff got a bit left behind because I focused on other things instead of hammering out all specifics for them and they got a bit forgotten as a result. may still happen.

Do you like seeing a change in tactics play out or do you like waiting in a menu for a manager to type in IRC? The former is fun the second is a drag.

Football Manager cup when

>don't know about the cup
>see a new thread in your board's catalog made by some random tripfag
>what the fuck is this attentionwhoring shit, filtered
People are better off not knowing that managers even exist.

Idea: Limit what a manager can do pre-match to the following:

Setup subs
Select a preset
Set sliders
Select a mentality

Eliminate nightlies, what you submit for the export deadline are your preset options.

During the game, you can change presents and mentalities on the fly through live managing (but have to rely on the streamer making the changes without pausing) and you get one time out for formation changes that can be used in the second half (throw them all forward banic scenarios).

>Eliminate nightlies
But user they are the number one timesaver on the whole cup, they prevent pixel tweaking and if done right you can use them to have 3 plans without even pausing the game