What was apartheid South Africa actually like?

It was always white control, later on they set up Bantustans that were semi-autonomous and run by blacks. "Bantustan" by the way was a made up term, combining "Bantu", the group blacks were from and "stan", from the middle eastern suffix (Khazakstan, Turkmenistan, etcetera), these all failed pretty spectacularly.

Because South Africa still had massive crime back then because all of it takes place in the slums and townships which no one bothered to check.

wages are of course gonna be lower when there's no barrier to preventing people from joining fields or entering them. so the pool of labour is much more massive since there's no racial restrictions. On top of that now the government budget is stretched more thin because now whites aren't the only ones being the focus of the government money but every South African

South Africa was a regional not a global presence.

SA went down in standards because it absorbed an entire underclass of Blacks and Coloureds that is has to care for as equal citizens. Imagine if America was just North East America (the good states in that area) and had to now rule over the rest of the U.S that's around Mississippi at best? You know how much porblems West Germany had integrating East Germany into it? Times that by 10+x, North Korea would be just as awful for south Korea or even worse.

thanks I really didn´t knew
do coloreds and whites get along?

meh, i bet half of those blacks are coloreds too

Not really. Coloreds are pretty unique in their position in South Africa's history.

i said that because a lot of race mixed individuals refer to themselves as black

mb they are more realistic in SA i guess

How the fuck should I know you littl.. Ugh, I mean, yeah, sure, whatever.
I don't actually know much about current relations as I don't come from SA, but I remember hearing something about them identifying more as white than black and feeling superiro for that reason, but the whites there, especially the Boers only identify with their own.

Actually not, it's not like America because the Boers were fiercely independent and didn't interact with the blacks at all, it's quite similar today, Pretoria in particular is still under quasi segregation due to neither community wanting to interact with each other.

Actually crime legitimately has got worse, the "white police only cared about white crime" meme is a complete myth, if anything they were harder on the blacks than the whites.

>wages are of course gonna be lower when there's no barrier to preventing people from joining fields or entering them. so the pool of labour is much more massive since there's no racial restrictions. On top of that now the government budget is stretched more thin because now whites aren't the only ones being the focus of the government money but every South African
The blacks always were involved in the economy of SA, I don't know how you think they functioned with 85% of the populace allegedly ignored. Nothing changed apart from the ineptitude of the government, the ANC couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

>didn't interact with the blacks at all,

They did interact though. A fucking lot of interaction between.

>The blacks always were involved in the economy of SA

As the labour base that worked for pretty much nothing.

> I don't know how you think they functioned with 85% of the populace allegedly ignored.

Pretty easy. The government paid little to support those populations like they did for whites in SA. That is very little tax money was designated for the blacks or Coloureds. It's pretty easy to function with an underclass that you just throw the occasional bones to and use as an incredibly cheap labour.

Of Course crime woudl get worse when the population of SA increased heavily. Not denying it didn't increase but Aparthied SA still had a lot of crime.

seems to me old anc people need to step aside for a new wave of politicians who do not carry past burdens

For white people, it was a first world country. For black people it was a third world country. After Mandela, it became third world for both whites and blacks.

It's 2nd world honestly but for upper class it's lower tier first world.

Is their life expectancy so low because of AIDS?

or other things too

>They did interact though. A fucking lot of interaction between.
Source? From what I've seen it was pretty segregated.

>As the labour base that worked for pretty much nothing.
No worse than the modern US.

>Pretty easy. The government paid little to support those populations like they did for whites in SA. That is very little tax money was designated for the blacks or Coloureds. It's pretty easy to function with an underclass that you just throw the occasional bones to and use as an incredibly cheap labour.
This is just the standard class system in literally every capitalist country. It's far worse than it ever was now with more blacks and whites in poverty.

>Of Course crime woudl get worse when the population of SA increased heavily. Not denying it didn't increase but Aparthied SA still had a lot of crime.
Less than literally every other sub saharan country per capita.

AIDS
murder
poor healthcare
poverty
disease in general

Historically Boers and Blacks did have a lot of interactions.

Also just asking are you using Boer in the all Afrikaans speaking whites or the rural counterparts to the city dwelling folk.

>Less than literally every other sub saharan country per capita.

Because SA has better crime reporting. Also it's like filled with townships and slums since south Africa is much more urbanized. Poor urban dwelling are a hive of crime and poverty. IT's liek how Bolivia has less crime the Brazil

>This is just the standard class system in literally every capitalist country.

Not even close

It's far worse than it ever was now with more blacks and whites in poverty.

There's very few whites in poverty though. Also then number of Coloureds and blacks rising from poverty and engaging in social mobility is higher then ever.

>No worse than the modern US.

Really nigga?

Yeah, they kept them as slaves. They didn't associate with them on amicable terms.

Boer to mean all Afrikaans speaking whites.

>Also then number of Coloureds and blacks rising from poverty and engaging in social mobility is higher then ever.
Because it's being artificially pushed by the ANC and it's largely failing, the BBBEE has fucked SA like Mugabe did.

>>No worse than the modern US.
>Really nigga?
Fair enough, this was hyperbolous on my part.

It was kinda like Sparta, the whites were free citizens responsible for politics as well as warriors (long military service and reservists of all ages being regularly drafted into the security forces (army and police)). Blacks were the disarmed Helotes who were put down by the ruling minority.

>Yeah, they kept them as slaves. They didn't associate with them on amicable terms.

and various political deals and alliances and conflicts and living near each other in various ways such as what you said.

Boers means the farmer subset hence the name Boers which mean farmers. Afrikaners refer to the whole group.

>Because it's being artificially pushed by the ANC and it's largely failing, the BBBEE has fucked SA like Mugabe did.

Post the stats.

*Helots, not Helotes

Hyperbolic, bruh

Coloureds also refer to themselves as Afrikaners in some context, as they speak Afrikaans, so I wanted to avoid using that term for this reason.

>post the stats
What stats, specifically? BBBEE has shat on the country all over, they have a nation of educated whites and uneducated whites, they then decided the uneducated blacks should have the skilled jobs and the whites shoukd fuck off, this is going as successfully as it sounds.

I have the best words, believe me.

BBBEE is not that though. you are thinking of BEE.

BEE is meant to give businesses an incentive and to hire non-whites. It only fucked up ahrd due to the 2008 downturn fucking up many companies.

It was shit if you were poor and black.

Then again, being poor and black is shit no matter if it's a racist white man or tolerant and loving Mugabe putting the boot on your neck/.

kek what

I can't tell you much about apartheid as I wasn't alive during it, but I can tell you that it's fucked now

>extremely high crime rate, in both poor and rich areas, because the new government fired most of the experienced white police force
>white farmers are murdered in significantly high numbers, because the government got rid of the kommandos (small units of afrikaans soldiers protecting rural areas), and because the government encourages land eviction of white people
>an education syllabus that teaches nothing at all about white people, and blames everything on us (I didn't even learn about the voortrekkers in history class)
>it's difficult to get into university as a white person, particularly a white male, because universities have much lower score requirements for other races and women
>it's difficult to get a job as a white person, because most companies are required by law to hire a certain percentage of black people
>extremely corrupt police force, who accept bribes, lend their uniforms to criminals and have been known to rape people
>extremely high HIV/AIDS rate, thanks to our past two presidents thinking it was a non issue
>the Rand has plummeted against the dollar. Right now it's like R14 to a dollar
>unemployment is a major factor. Our government has allowed millions of people from all over Africa to pour through our borders, and has destroyed our previously huge textile industry by allowing China to flood us with cheap goods
>the government has made socialist labour unions extremely strong, and now there are yearly protests (strikes) which grinds production to a halt, and makes international companies disinterested

Tldr : Don't let a former marxist terrorist party run your country because of sanctions

The whites had handed over a government to people who had no clue what they were doing, like all African countries.
>ayo mang gibs me da gubmint
>o-okay here you go
>okay so how do I works dis ting?!
>Well, yo-
>YO MAN LET'S MAKE BLACKS GET EVERYTHING AND TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING FROM THE WHITES

2nd world means USSR and their allies, it's not a scale of quality

yeah, I bet that didn't have anything to do with the SU, china, India and several assorted countries all around. No, the white man would have kept a tiny country that works on exporting minerals competitive in the modern global economy.

...

Racial groups tend to be very segregated culturally, and coloreds see themselvesnas a distinct ethnic group as well, just like blacks and whites.

The regime tried to bring every ethnic group into a societal class and segregate them accordingly, not only regarding public infrastructure, but location of housin as well. In America, blacks sat in the back of the bus. In SA, blacks barely even went on buses with whites, because they were sent to live in different regions altogether.

I've heard it been described as capitalism for the Anglos and Jews, communism for the Boers, and fascism for the Blacks

>the Boers were fiercely independent and didn't interact with the blacks at all

I've been wondering something, did the various Boer republics which resisted the British have a high number of blacks? I've been thinking the reason why the Afrikaners are in such a bad situation today is because their small republics got annexed into the large British colony of South Africa. If those republics has been preserved and "South Africa" never existed, they wouldn't have to live with blacks and be forced to emigrate.

People look back at such historical circumstances and their liberal gland kicks-in, and they celebrate the conquest of The Left over Racism.

They think it wonderful that they and their kin have turned a situation where whites had comfortable lives (within a paradigm that they and they alone created) into one where they are as miserable as the blacks they once tried to avoid

Whites fashioned themselves a civilisation in South Africa out of the ashes of war, famine and religious persecution, and in spite of repeated attacks from the various black ethnic groups in the region

Not a saffer, but one of my best friends was born in the early 80s, so was a kid (with memories) when it all came down.

I've also had three co-workers who are saffers. One is British-Jewish background in her late 40s, from Capetown. One is Indian-Muslim background (he's a total hippie though) in his late 50s from Johannesburg. The other a proper Afrikaaner who still has a strong accent, in his early 40s from some small town. I also once dated a Jewish saffer (well, her parents left before she was born).

And basically, they all said life was fairly good for them. The huge caveat that they weren't black and weren't poor.

The Indian-Saffer does have some bad experiences. He worked as a journalist later, around the actual collapse of apartheid, and he did experience racial abuse by police and was arrested a few times (along with other colleagues) for being at protests (as a journalist). He was interrogated and put in stress positions, hosed with cold water in a cell, but never actually beaten. His (white) boss vouched for him and got him out of prison.

He joined the (then illegal) ANC. He had guerrilla training in Mozambique, and was always paranoid this would be discovered. Had to sneak back/forth across the border during this time, through minefields and the threat of having their car RPGed. He has pics at the camp to prove it. He never participated in any violence, because as an Indian he was more useful for his ease of movement. Not free like whites, but more free than blacks or coloureds. Mostly he helped smuggle (in his estimate) at least a hundred or so guns and countless ammunition and sacks of money from Mozambique. He was able to get away with a lot because he had a professional job and was Indian, he was never suspected of smuggling. Said you were looked down on officially, but respected for being business-savvy. Had lots of white friends in Jo'burg, and otherwise (when not called on a smuggling mission) was really into jazz and smoking pot.

And yea, like I said... for the rest of the white ones, they said life was pretty good. You were insulated from a lot of the misery of blacks, that's why it was called apartheid -- you were separated.

My one friend, who was only 11-12 when apartheid collapsed, said she has NO bad childhood memories about that kind of stuff. They had a black nanny and other black helpers in the apartment gated community they lived in, and they were also polite and friendly with each other. She wasn't even aware of what was happening, probably childhood naivety. She only became aware at the very end, as everyone was talking about it.

Of course, the older ones can recall the social/economic problems of being boycotted by much of the world.

The Afrikaaner I mentioned had been in the army, drafted as all men were. He was in long enough to get some sort of NCO rank, but I don't recall now. It's been several years since I've seen him. He didn't give many details in general (he had converted to Mormonism when I knew him), but he most certainly shot and killed people in battle, and implied torture was routinely used to get information. He seemed to be remorseful of that. The only thing he didn't seem to be remorseful about was firefights with commie Cuban/Russian troops in Angola. Doing the Lord's work and all.

Wait the KaNgs are a real people?

>Khoisans aren't even native to the region

Khoisans are the natives. It's bantus that are foreign invaders like whites.

So the Indian guy helped destroy a regime and then fled to Britain when the new regime he helped create turned out to be shit? And i bet that now he wants Britain to turn more multiculti but will still flee again to another country if it were to happen. That guy is a piece of shit. I wonder how he can watch himself in the mirror in the morning.

There were always *some* blacks around.

This is in Canada, actually. I'm sure you would help have little qualms about 'destroying' a regime that treated you (legally and in everyday-life) as second class. Non-white were forbidden from getting too much education, and he was denied a university education, although his grades were all top (according to him).

And he only came here about 7-8 years ago because he married a Canadian (who is mixed Indian-Chinese Malaysian, herself).

I wonder how you can 'watch' yourself in the mirror in the morning. So much saltiness, you might want to try /pol/, /pol/fag.

HOLUP

Would you know of any sources that detail the number of blacks in the Boer states?

Blacks were the majority in both Boer Republics, though ZAR had many more whites thanks to the gold boom.

That pretty much only happened in Zimbabwe and SA

>moral and based
>human conditions were better

Gonna call you on your bullshit, stormfag

There are still problems within it to be sure, but it's a lot better than it once was

npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/05/06/310095463/20-years-after-apartheid-south-africa-asks-how-are-we-doing

Yeah, right after they persecuted, segregated and brutalised the indigenous people.

>hurr we WUZ gud bois we dindu nuffin

The problem is you think oppression comes from outside oneself when in actuality it comes from within. Blacks, Whites, Indians, Chinese and whoever else was better off under apartheid South Africa. The current world is just too stupid to realize it.

Racial community relations are always fraught in SA. Coloureds are their own group, but let's put it this way: they have less trouble from whites than from 'pure' African blacks.

That's what happens when you exclude 90%-95% of your populace for generations, though. Of course it's going to be like a bull in a china shop.

Naturally in the colonial regimes, whites/Europeans put themselves in charge, and maintained the legacy as long as they could. This also meant helping themselves to the best lands. When the tables are turned, what would you expect to happen?

The results in Zimbabwe speak for themselves. Mugabe will be dead soon, though, and maybe some sense will return.

Better then today

>hurr LIBERALS durr
It's telling that you view it as a simplified white/black thing.

Just a reminder that you're not on /pol/, you cretin. This is Veeky Forums, where stupid people aren't tolerated.

>It's telling that you view it as a simplified white/black thing.

A false accusation. The left views apartheid as unequivocally evil. If studied non-partially its apparent that its far better than what came after.

Bantus "aren't native" like Hungarians aren't "native" to Europe. For some perspective, they have been in southern Africa three times as long than whites have been in North America.

> For some perspective, they have been in southern Africa three times as long than whites have been in North America.

Timespan is completely irrelevant.

What's the difference in your mind between the Bantu's successfully conquering and settling South Africa against the Khoisans versus Dutch and English successfully conquering and settling South Africa against the Bantus?

Not a false accusation when you (or that user) are literally applying the labels 'white' and 'black'. You're American, aren't you?

Apartheid is rightly viewed as unjust (evil is a religious term, ya christfag) by almost everyone of liberal (and I mean the true sense of liberal, not your Fox News definition) standing. Even most conservatives parties all over the west acknowledged this, although Cold War realities prevented total rejection.

> If studied non-partially its apparent that its far better than what came after.
I dare you to go to South Africa and make that suggestion to random people on the street. They might agree with you on current economic or political grounds, but I am sure they prefer freedom to apartheid.

If people like you ran the world, we'd all still be in the middle ages.

Timespan is relevant if you're making some kind of argument about 'legitimacy' to land based on time present. Saying Bantus are foreign is silly. It isn't their 'Urheimat', no. But relatively few people today ARE still living in their Urheimat. It's 2016 AD, not 10,016 BC.

>What's the difference in your mind between the Bantu's successfully conquering and settling South Africa against the Khoisans versus Dutch and English successfully conquering and settling South Africa against the Bantus?
Guns, germs and steel (j/k).

IRRELEVANT

ALL THOSE PEOPLE'S ANCESTORS ARE DEAD NOW

if you're a 30 yo south african and were born there, you've been there as long as the other 30 yo SAfricans

>people were segregated, discriminated, viewed as less than human, denied from education, health, and jobs on the basis of their race

>somehow better

>you guys don't realise how good you had it

Stormfags, ladies and gentlemen

> Not a false accusation when you (or that user) are literally applying the labels 'white' and 'black'.

I actually said White, Black, Indian, Chinese or whoever else. You should read the post instead of giving a knee jerk reaction.

>Apartheid is rightly viewed as unjust

I disagree. Apartheid is perfectly just. The genocide of Boers by animalistic Black hordes is unjust.

>They might agree with you on current economic or political grounds, but I am sure they prefer freedom to apartheid.

Freedom to be poorer, more miserable and less safe than before? If they prefer that its because they don't know any better.

>worlds record of rape and murder on a daily bases

>some how better

You are retard

not him, but, people didn't have running water, electricity, food, healthcare anything

but now there's more (reported) crimes

it's not black and white

>Apartheid is perfectly just. The genocide of Boers by animalistic Black hordes is unjust.
>We should be free to oppress other ethnicities and they shouldn't fight back

>people were segregated

So?

>discriminated

So?

>viewed as less than human

Funny how you think blacks are entitled to have other races view them a certain way.

>denied from education

In institutions built by Europeans to cater to their own kind. No one stopped blacks from being educated in other ways.

>health

Yet somehow now that blacks aren't "denied" health the aids/HIV infection is higher than anywhere else in the world.

>jobs

Because they were working all those jobs they were denied before whitey came and stole it from them right?

because schools and hospitals are built out of nowhere right

because anybody was testing the black populace for HIV those days

it's unsustainable to have 10% of the population get all the resources in a country

you should be asking yourself why they didn't decide to split - possibly because of mines and the fact that white cities are spread around the country

it wasn't just the anc that brought down the apartheid, white south africans were involved too, compromises were reached, and as you can see those 5 million whites are still living there, 20 years later

>Hurr durr why should black people be mad over being subjugated and discriminated by a minority that viewed them as subhuman?

Seriously, are you just in denial that it's basic human nature to not want to be subjugated by an ethnic group that's different from your one? You stormfags hate Jews for the same reason blacks hate whites. Have some fucking self-awareness.

>facepalm.jpg
Nothing to really say.

>Life was better *for everyone* under apartheid!!
>The current world is just too stupid to realize it.
That's some edge there, kiddo.

Time to go back to /pol/, m8.

>still replying to the stormfag

dont waste your time

why do you think they come here

to get antidotes for red pill poisoning

>implying treatment of blacks was any better

>implying there haven't been any improvements

weforum.org/agenda/2015/07/5-ways-south-africa-changed-after-mandelas-release/

It's should be just white

Fuck black people

you should leave then

>Seriously, are you just in denial that it's basic human nature to not want to be subjugated by an ethnic group that's different from your one

Why would you think self-aware Whites would put Black desires over their own well being?

>because schools and hospitals are built out of nowhere right

Who designed those institutions? Who knew how to use them? Blacks are entitled to utilize White infrastructure just because they did the menial labor required for its creation.

>because anybody was testing the black populace for HIV those days

Or because Blacks can't control their passions and screw each other like wild animals?

>white south africans were involved too

(((White South Africans)))

This. Pic related, Nelson Mandela with a (((white south African)))

friendly reminder

>get offended by facts
>"n-no you guys have to leave right fucking now"
Either prove them wrong or go back to lefty/pol/.

>facts

where?

>triggered

>implying

See then read

I know its kind of a meme, but under-reporting is a huge factor that wasn't taken into account in this context.

It's funny that all your """facts""" seem to relate entirely to pushing an ideological stance about modern South Africa and, seemingly, white supremacy. You are not interested in history, but in justifying your modern political stance. That makes it /pol/, not Veeky Forums.

Saffer here, born in the mid-90s, parents were born in the late 50s and early 60s in Pretoria and Johannesburg respectively. AMA for anecdotes

give up, people like that simply does not have the cognitive ability to see nuance or beyond its ego.

Spain had a smaller GDP than South Africa in the 70's right now Dpain has doubled SA's GDP

Me too, but I was born in Durbs in '78. Left when I was 14 tho.

>despite everything that's happened and everything people say about it now, I still want to buy a small plot of land on the Hibiscus or Wild coast, dump a couple of cargo containers on it to live in a live the off grid hippie life by the sea, even if it costs me my life. We all gotta die of something.

But user niggers are less than human

And they say that about whitey.

Welcome to ingroup outgroup 101

It was okay I guess