Why are the Aztecs so interesting, Veeky Forums?

destruction of any historic texts is a sad event

yeah ofc, that one just hits hard in particular because they were so remote and so different. they could have been a third major source of society and culture if things had gone differently.

>Aztec scholars will never explain what in the world did they mean by this

everything is shit and therefore must speak shit?

Maybe that every living thing shares the same blood or something? I dunno. Pictographic images are hard for someone not versed in the to decipher

How deadly were Flower Wars? Could one reasonably expect to survive and how did enemy combatants take the whole idea?

They're cool because they're a civilization that was built without the cultural interchange that Old World civilizations had. Same thing with the Inca.

They were very apreciative of nature, having gardens, aviaries and zoos and even human zoos with people with deformities.

interesting thought. Given time they could adapt to european technology and mix it with their own.

DAMN
"Some codices highlight the bad treatment that indigenous communities experienced at the hands of Spanish enconmenderos (landowners who received tribute from local communities in exchange for conversion to Catholicism and instruction in Spanish). For example, here is a page from the Codex Kingsborough, a document supporting a legal dispute between the Indians of Tepelaoztoc and Don Válezquez de Salazar. You can see from this page that the indigenous people experienced harsh treatment at the hands of the Spanish. Here, they are being burned alive for not delivering tribute on time!"

Different user here, but flower wars were typically fought between 200 or 400 combatants and they typically were fought by nobles who had obtained some status in war.

According to Ross Hassig, captives taken in flower wars were sometimes released. The objective was taking captives, so killing was typically avoided. The wars often escalated however, and captives would then be sacrificed.

It was a way to justify war. If you didnt want to mount a full war effort, flower wars were a way to maintain low level conflict which could be gradually escalated into a war of conquest when adequate war preperations were made.

As for your rate of survival, that depended on whether or not the emperor chose to escalate the conflict. Lord knows I wouldnt want to do it. Just give me a bow and let me be an auxiliary in the back lines...

not sure m9, there's something very distinctive about the way they saw life

"Do not put poison darts into your urethra no matter how kinky you feel"

Seriously though I would guess that it might denote what does and does not belong to the gods. Holy at the top, prey/food behind and larger or predatory animals in line with but below the man. The skull divided into cranium and jaw seems significant.

Velázquez*

It's to do with the calendar. This is from the codex Ferjevary Mayer depicting the Smoking Mirror (Tezcatlipoca). The symbols you see around him are day signs (20 in total), and the dots represent the 13 numbered days that run parallel to the day signs. Totalling a calendar cycle of 260 days (20x13). I can get back to you in a bit if the threads still alive, to explain in further I need to head out first.

This depicts the three souls each human has.

I see the 3 souls but what do the two snakes represent?

What has this to do with the thread?

Regarding mesoamericans and peruvians:

>colorful and somewhat eerie aesthetics in textiles and painting
>trapezoids everywhere
>scary gods
>innovative terrace and river agriculture to compensate for lack of labor animals
>using black volcanic glass for blades and flint or jade weapons
>civilizations often had origins in fishing rather than nomadic pastoralism, with industrial agriculture preceding food crops
>aztecs had a brutal but also largely heterarchical governance maintained by fear rather than garrisons
>inca were totalitarian on a level seldom seen in premodern times
>cannibalism
>spiritual drug use
>hunchbacked priests and elaborately ritualized sacrifices that seem pointlessly violent to outsiders
>pictographs, ideographs and quipu over conventional alphabets
>isolated from trade with afro-eurasia
>seeming simultaneously savage and civilized
>fucking beast warriors

Probably because you are Mexican.

It may seem strange to outsiders, but it's not as exotic once you study them enough. I don't know enough about the Andeans to comment, but I can for Mesoamerica. That region surely was and still is in some places very interesting. Though I think the Aztecs and Maya (olmec to a lesser extent) largely overshadow other groups which were equally important: Bini'zaa (zapotec), ñusaavi (mixtec), hñahñu (otomi), huastec, totonac, purepecha (tarascans), teotihucan, tlatilco, izapa culture, xochipala to name a few. Also the west mexican shaft tomb cultures of Nayarit and Jalisco,

>Aztec
>Has a forged metal sword

I'm not mexican but I think they're cool too for this reason

Not to mention its too beige looking. The city is supposed to be all white and the interiors with colorful murals.

>mix it with their own
Yeah, I'm sure sharp rocks and no wheels would have melded seamlessly with tempered steel.

it is hypothetical

>origins in fishing

>still never able to come up with anything bigger than a river canoe

>bow
Atlatl

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just like the thousands of years of european hydraulic knowledge did, right?

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Is it true Europeans taught natives how to make a bow? I knew that atlatl's were commonplace.

no wheel and thats an artist rendition there was no geographical knowledge or maps.

>And when we saw all those cities and villages built in the water, and other great towns on dry land, and that straight and level causeway leading to Mexico [i.e. Tenochtitlán], we were astounded. These great towns and cues [i.e., temples] and buildings rising from the water, all made of stone, seemed like an enchanted vision from the tale of Amadis. Indeed, some of our soldiers asked whether it was not all a dream. It is not surprising therefore that I should write in this vein. It was all so wonderful that I do not know how to describe this first glimpse of things never heard of, seen or dreamed of before.
-Bernal Díaz del Castillo

>They agreed to work at it viribus et posse, and began at once to divide the task between them, and I must say that they worked so hard, and with such good will, that in less than four days they constructed a fine bridge, over which the whole of the men and horses passed. So solidly built it was, that I have no doubt it will stand for upwards of ten years without breaking —unless it is burnt down — being formed by upwards of one thousand beams, the smallest of which was as thick round as a man's body, and measured nine or ten fathoms in length, without counting a great quantity of lighter timber that was used as planks. And I can assure your Majesty that I do not believe there is a man in existence capable of explaining in a satisfactory manner the dexterity which these lords of Tenochtitlan, and the Indians under them, displayed in constructing the said bridge: I can only sav that it is the most wonderful thing that ever was seen.
- Cortes to Charles V

I'm trying to get into Aztec mythology and religion, and it's like drinking from a fire hose.

I haven't had it this bad since I tried to grapple with Indian Religion.

> the three souls each human has.
Desire to know more intensifies.

that artist rendition is a bit small, it doesn't capture the real size of tenochtitlan.
No Aztecs were familiar with the bow already they just favored atlatls. Bows were seen by the Aztec as a more savage tool of hunters, ironically many of their enemies who employed bows gave them a lot of trouble at war. The best bowmen of Mesoamerica were the Chichimecs, one account had 4 of them hold down and chase away 50 Indian auxilliaries sent by the Conquistadors. Spaniards had to go into their territory when they waged war on them with heavily armored cavalry and this still didnt prevent them from getting hit. Another account says that if a Chichimec shot and hit a man from a distance in between the eyes it was considered a bad shot, because he was aiming for one of the eyes. The Spaniards were ultimately unable to beat them militarily.

what are you struggling with user?

First, nice quints. Second, I'm having trouble first of all because I don't have good sources, so any help on that front would be great.

Other than that though, it's so BIG. I'm not grasping much meaning and significance yet, but I get there's a lot that's being pointed at that I'm not picking up on. Layers of symbolism and meaning, tied into layers and symbolism and meaning. I try to read a myth, and it makes reference to figures and ideas that should have some significance, and I either have to look it up, or I can't (which happens disappointingly often).

The biggest thing I'm missing is tying it all together. If anyone could paint a picture of the central drama, the weltanschauung of the Aztec mythology, that would help a lot.

They were fucking savages that were massacred and fought the euros in animal skins.

The Chichimec sound badass.

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gonna post a few artifacts

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>It literally like playing pretend but for real

Any more pics like that? Or the whole book?

>there arrived at that time a canoe long as a galley and eight feet [2.5m] wide, made of a single tree trunk like the other Indian canoes; it was freighted with merchandise from the western regions around New Spain. Amidships it had a palm-leaf awning like that which the Venetian gondolas carry; this gave complete protection against the rain and waves. Under this awning were the children and women and all the baggage and merchandise. There were twenty-five paddlers.

>this handsome dugout or canoe was 95 palmos length, made of a single timber; and in it 150 persons would fit and navigate

>In all the islands they have many canoas resembling rowing fustas some smaller and some larger, and many are larger than a fusta of I8 oar-banks. They are not so wide because they are made of a single log, but a fusta could not keep up in rowing because they go faster than one can believe and in these they navigate to all those islands, which are innumerable, and carry their merchandise.

-Columbus

Fuckers shoulda paid the tribute

oh boy this is some heavy level retardation
they didn't really fight the euro's at all for starters

Nahua religion is concerned with three major fundamentals: Equilibrium, Duality and Fluidity. To understand this

>Teotl is creation, in the beginning there is no 'nothingness' or 'chaos' that needed to be ordered.
>Teotl is not outside of creation, it always was, and just is.
>It is the only thing that reality is made of.
>Creation came from teotl, so everything is made up of teotl.
>Everything is just an aspect of toetl, because teotl is to be understood as a process, a state of change, a state of becoming.
>Everything is a big cycle of construction, deconstruction, becoming something else.
>Everything exists only in a temporary state, which is subject to decay and become part of something else.
>Teotl is a process. Teotl is not a state of being, it is a state of becoming.

The 'gods' are defined as being a kaelidoscope of creation, such as water, the sun, the wind etc. it is all defined by what it does and how it does it. Its particular process, its effect and co-relation between the happenings of all other things. Therefore, they are not different from creation or outside of creation, they are creation and we are all simply aspects of creation, or teotl. This is made explicit in the Aztec sun myth where all the 'gods' have to sacrifice a bit of their own blood for humanity. We have a bit of them all in us so to speak.

Cont'd

Teotl is also amoral. There is no realisation of good and evil because it just doesn't exist. Destruction and creation are just processes that happen and humans like the rest of creation are affected by it. There is no morality in the changing of the seasons, in the same way as there is no morality in teotl. Whether the outcome is fortunate or unfortunate is just pot luck. It's nothing personal. There are no grand intentions of goals, they have no freewill, emotions, omniscient intellect, they are not all powerful. They are part of the same process, a process that happens regardless. They are energy in motion. This is why despite duality being a crucial part of Nahua thinking, a good and evil duality doesn't exist.

The deities are just anthropomorphised representations of these aspects of teotl. And what's more, there is absolutely nothing supernatural. It's all natural. Certain things may be hidden from human perception under ordinary conditions, but there is still nothing supernatural about it. It's all made up of the same stuff pretty much.

>Everything is sacred and nothing is profane.
>Teotl is not limited to being in only a single era, or in a single person, or single tree.
>When we talk about the different layers of the cosmos, this is not a hierachy, but they are folds, like the folds of a blanket, but it still consists of the same 'stuff' and none is truly 'higher' or 'lower' than any other in the plane of existence.

>bunch of ooga booga feather wearing savages
>interesting

take this (you) and fuck off.

Cont'd

As for the myths we can begin by looking at the various teotl or for practicalities sake we will call them 'deities'. Among the most important to the Aztecs are Tezcatlipoca who is a trickster, sorcerer, and often associated with chaos, war, sacrifice, sexuality. Some of his other aspects are Tepeyollotl who a jaguar who causes earthquakes, Huehuecoyotl who is a hypersexualized coyote related to dance, the arts and music. There are also four Tezcatlipocas, represented as four aspects related to the four different directions. The number four is also associated with the sun, which Tezcatlipoca was said to have been once. The world has 5 eras or suns, we are living in the fifth one, which is the most ripe. Just as you have four directions, there is always one more, the center, which accounts for the fifth era.
Which also means the deities messed up in the past: Tezcatlipocas sun was black, and the humans of that era were giants who ate acorns, were wiped out by Tezcatlipoca himself after Tezcatlipoca the white, his brother Quetzalcoatl (the Plumed Serpent) knocked him out as the sun. Next came Quetzalcoatl's Sun, he ruled gently over the humans, so much so that humans didn't bother worshipping him. So Tezcatlipoca turned the less civilized humans into monkeys. Quetzalcoatl loved his creations and was angry Tezcatlipoca did this and blew them all away. He stepped down as the Sun and a new race of humans was needed. So came Tlaloc, the lord of rains and the misty paradise Tlalocan, became the Sun. Things went ok until his wife Xochiquetzal (Precious Flower woman associated with the arts, sexuality, youthful beauty, war and luxury) was seduced by Tezcatlipoca. Tlaloc kicked Tezcatlipoca down his mountain palace and was so depressed over the infidelity he let the world endure drought. The Gods begged him to bring some rain back and he was so irritated by their requests he made it rain fire destroying the world a third time.

Tlaloc remarried with Chalchiuhtlicue (related to fresh waters, fertility and beauty) and she became the fourth Sun. She initially did well like Tlaloc did, however Tezcatlipoca whispered rumors to her that humans didn't really like her and only pretended to worship her. She was upset to hear this she cried rivers of tears that eventually flooded the world turning many into fishes. So the world was in darkness again. The gods held a meeting and asked someone to volunteer to be the next sun. Nanahuatzin (a syphilus filled poor cripple, who practiced sorcery but had a good heart) volunteered, as did Tecciztecatl (Son of Tlaloc and Chalchiuhtlicue who was by contrast very handsome, arrogant and spoiled). The two made offerings in the temple and went to be sacrificed in the Gods oven, a large fire. Tecciztecatl chickened out, and so Nanahuatzin went into the fire, Tecciztecatl not wanting to be outdone did so too. The two after sacrificing themselves became the Sun (Nanahuatzin), and Tecciztecatl became another sun. This was too much, so Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli (Venus) flung a rabbit at Tecciztecatl and dimmed his brightness considerably becoming the moon. Nanahuatzin became Tonatiuh (the Sun) and Tecciztecatl, Meztli (the Moon). To get Tonatiuh to move, he required blood for energy which the deities sacrificed a little of their own.

Note: there's other myths of the Sun and Moon in which Nanahuatzin was replaced by Huitzilopochtli and Tecciztecatl, was Coyolxuaqui. This myth is very different but Huitzilopochtli was a rather obscure deity but was patron of the Mexica. When the Mexica became dominant they made him the new Sun, and so this myth came to prominence.

There are still other myths such as Quetzalcoatls love affair with the human turned plant deity Mayahuel, a woman whose breast milk was the alcoholic milky pulque. Her sometimes 400 (a euphemism for 'countless') breasts fed her rabbit children.

In some myths Xochiquetzal was married to Piltzintecuhtli who was also associated with the Sun. There's also one about a bat biting Xochiquetzal vagina whose blood spawned flowers.

Another features the creation of the earth, by Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca teaming up and slaying a monstrous crocodile (this is why Tezcatlipoca sometimes has a missing foot that was bitten off this earth monster). The Earth Monster's carcass became the terrain which makes up our world. Mountain ridges for instance are the ridges of her back. To please her pain, she is offered blood and she devours humans ultimately, as their tombs are in the earth.

There's so many others and yes they contradict each other often, at times this is because they come from different regions, but also because there is so much which overlaps. Deities often share, are aspects of each other, dual opposites, related, married etc. This is why you cannot put these deities into neat organized categories.

Reminder that the Aztecs already wiped out the glorious, beautiful civilization that actually built Tenochtitlan. They were heart-carving savages who killed all the intellectual city-dwelling tribals to please god on their own with their retarded and ridiculous blood religion.

Tenochtitlam != Teotihuacan

retard

Well there are three souls, one in the head (Tonalli) which is also curiously the word for day. The Tonalli is basically what are destiny is, it follows us after death. It is also associated with dreams and is the only one which we need to live. Humans can afford to lose a soul, but it is not recommended as it can make one ill. The tonalli can also be captured and utilized to empower the destiny of a community, by literally having their heads in the city (skullrack). Note, the Aztecs were not alone in having skullracks, the Maya did too. The other soul is the Teyolia which resides in the heart. This is our rational self, where our intelligence, our mind if you will.

The ihiyotl soul resides in our liver, and it is where our passions, emotions (love/hate), instincts are, our 'gut feelings'. This is probably the most vulnerable one and prone to outside attack by spirits. Spirits attack the soul by entering us in our joints (a strong nexus 'portal' you can say where things go in and out) or even just the pours of our skin. Once it takes over, the bad airs that entered our body can make us sick, physicially and mentally. A good sorcerer/healer has the ability to drive away this bad airs with a combination of medicinal herbs,plants.organic ingredients (depending on the illness cold or hot plants are prescribed) and chants and prayers. They also can broker a deal with the spirit residing in the body and use him as a guardian against other things which might threaten ourselves.

>doot doot

I want to add to my post also that the arm that Tezcatlipoca holds is that of a dead woman who died in childbirth.
Hm not sure I could check that out.

*died giving childbrith

They look like punk rockers

just play Civilization

>aztecs invented googly eyes

already more contributions to society than negros

Would bang her so hard.

They mirror the neolithic and bronze age of the Old World, a time of god-kings, monumental architecture, bureaucrats and barbarians.

That was super cool. Like Morrowind but for real.

they were certainly ahead of their time

Is great to read from the eyewitnes, they were in awe. Wish I could see Tenochtitlan.

>CAN'T WAKE UP

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Man they had some nice fashion

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Based angus mcbride, I'll miss his art.

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funeral rites of the Aztecs

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agreed

Quetzalcoatls exile east.

>they had to constantly piss off all their neighbors to prevent the end of the world

Are you saying you would take a chance!?

There's a theory I read once, that they wanted to create a paradise on Earth but needed to conquer the world first.

This was cool as fuck.
Thanks user. In a mountain of shitposts, one really can find gold in its rivers.

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About to ask this

So it's basically like Pierre Weil's human Sphinx. Neat.

Reminded me of that time people destroyed libraries of historical content (in Alexandria, I think) during the Dark Ages.

That was pretty depressing too.

Superego, ego and id?

It's incredible how such primitive reatures could such things, they probably didn't even have a language from what I hear but they built a society, I think Minoans were like them before getting invaded by Greeks, it's like the stage before actual civilization

Yeah, the flower wars were basically arranged wars where the main objective was to get prisoners. Also dick waving.

Same with ancient phalanx warfare
>general 1: Summer's in you motherfucker, wanna brawl?
>general 2: I'll fuck you up breh, where do we fight?
>This valley looks nice.
>Nah too many trees and the terrain is uneven in the southwest
>How about this one?
>Yep, a'igth see you there
>phalanxes walk towards eachother to push the enemy until they give up.