All memes aside, why do people say that these are the best blades ever created?

Thank you, that was actually pretty interesting. How did the Chinese weapons were different from the Japesene ones, aesthetically speaking?

they look pretty kewl

Becuase for asia it was

Aesthetically not so much. The Katana emerged from the Sino-East Asian Aesthetics of gilt guards, lacquer fucking everywhere, rayskin covered grips bound with that diamond leather/silk grip.

However, AFAIK there has been NO Japanese sword with a Chinese style lacquered wood grip. The Japanese do not also use the Chinese method of hanging swords on their sides: the Chinese use the Sassanid Style double lugs on a sheath to pass a baldrick cord through, while the Japanese prefer a knotwork of cord (pictured) that mimics the Chinese Sassanid Lugs but in knots.

Also Japanese sheathes are roundish, while the Chinese sheathes are only roundish for the Dual edged sword. While for the Dao and Japanese Swords, they prefer using a boxy sheath with a protective endcap for the edge of the saber.

There were some western academics whose work exaggerated its cutting abilities.

unfortunate there as been a backlash as of late. The information is not much more accurate but now it goes in the opposite direction

Are they as good at cutting as a Scimitar or any normal curved sword from the middle east?

Heh, nothin' personal.

I no idea, They are good cutters but you dont need a great man cutter to kill people. Those ideas came from blade tests which were conducted on corpses, and they were more like durability tests. Any blade made with modern methods should outperform anything from back then.

They were a functional sword that fit the needs of the society that created them.

Because they were the only swords that (in the hands of a highly trained warrior) could actually cut through bullets. If we'd had them in the west gunpowder might never have taken off the way it did

That is the most Retard thing I have heard all year. Thanks.

He clearly was not serious, we cant have a discussion of katana or samurai without people spamming meme and stuff like this. I would report them if I though it would do any good.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana. Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind. Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash. Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected. So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

You can'y use a Katana with just one hand.

Apparently you can.

Look, I'm no swordsman, but it was a common Chinese practice to halve what is to them, the overlong handles of imported Japanese Katanas. Why? It's because they get in the way of their bowcases and string up with the bowstring.

So Chinks ended up with Hand & Half Katanas.

youtube.com/watch?v=HVA2Mph-Y88

You can, there are issues of course, but its fully possible and had to be done on horseback

Just like you can't use a longsword with one hand I suppose.
The tachi was supposed to be useable on horseback with one hand, but even the uchigatana and its descendants could be used on foot with one hand no problem. There are many (if not all) styles that used techniques with one hand to cut at the legs or simply to cut and thrust further, or while grappling with the enemy. Hell since there are a good deal of styles showing how to fight with your two swords simultaneously, that's a simple indicator that you can use a katana with one hand, while on foot.

Due to the convoluted process of making them. "The smiths spent months shaping and folding the steel, it must be the best sword ever!".

Kinda like those dinners where they dress the plates all fancy like. The make up of the plate and the fact the sauce is shaped into a heart won't make the food better.

i beg to differ

Because of this But then, there is a backlash and we end up with retarded people like this who err on the wrong side to look like cool anti-weeabos.

There were good Japanese swords and crap Japanese swords. There is a huge difference in the quality of sword that a powerful magnate like Shimazu Yoshihisa would use and what a random ronin would use.

Well they aren't, but they are still constructed with bloomery iron as the main resource, which is refined by hand into steel and then assembled into a blade, partially hardened etc, all by hand tools. It is an insane amount of craftsmanship and skill going into each single blade, which makes them valuable collectibles.
Each piece of steel is different and has the "handwritting" of the smith on it, and thanks to the high end polish you can actually "look into the steel" and appraise its beauty.

It is like a guy builds a car from scratch with hand tools only. Will the car be better than what runs off the line at Ford's? No, likely not, but it is way more valuable to many people.
Now thats why people collect them and pay high prices for them. So yeah, ignore every /k/atamite with his katana vs longsword bullshit, because thats pretty much missing the point. Also disregard all the "Japan had shitty iron" posts, thats just idiots spouting a meme whilst having no clue about ferro metallurgy themselves.

With what?

Not that guy, but I can assure you, there is not such thing as best sword. There are many soundly made sword designs, and then it comes down to who's the better fencer.

I do HEMA, I use steel feders with industrial steel blades, because they work and are mechanical sound and safe for training.
I do collect antique blades, I got mostly 19th century military pieces because thats what I can afford, but get an ultra hardon from (preferably German) 16th century blades.

However, you can actually spend hours looking at a handmade Japanese weapon, because, holly shit whats going on with this crystal structure, this fucking mirror polish, the lines and so on. All done by some old geezer who hammered the thing into existence from charcoal, river sand and and some dirty bloomery iron.

Thats amazing, and everybody who loves swords, collects or trains respects them for that. This "best sword" is mall ninja tier bullshit and needs to stop, at least on Veeky Forums.

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you, asshole

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>Chinese praising Barbarian craftsmanship
#problematic

Hahahah no.

China's use of barbarian is pretty much referring to overall Civilization and internal beliefs. That said they do not grudge the physical products of the Barbarian.

Just look at how they pretty much considered western firearms as superior to their own- adopting western cannon designs wholesale and even inviting Jesuit-sponsored gunsmiths to make them for them, while still calling them barbarian.
Or the case of the Katana.
You know who else the Chinese thought made excellent swords? People in the Middle East they called "Mixi" (from the Chinese word Egyptian). Though most likely the Ottomans, the Mamluk or Damascus steel shit.

It was wootz, an indo-persian crucible steel that was later on used by many muslim empires.
And it is fucking beautiful steel alright.

At the same time, Indians themselves bought European made (mostly Italy and Germany) blades, called Firangi after their name for the Franks. Those blades where highly praised.
>everybody liked a good blade, be it bloomery, crucible or blast furnace steel

Oh yeah, I think Mixi also covered the Mughals, given that the Chinks also got firearms ideas from them too.

The crucible steel was invented 300 BC in souther India and todays Sri Lanka, a goldilock combination of high grade ores with the good traces of Vanadium & Tungsten, good refractiory materials and constant monsoon winds made helped with that.
It was only in the 17th century that the English figured how to do crucible steel, and still today, special quality steel for tools and weapons is made in small batch crucibles.

>Chinese bought Nips swords
>Arabs bought Chinese swords
>Indians bought European swords

So this is a case of the grass is always greener?

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>Arabs
>#triggered
No, Persians, Indians, Mughals, Turks, yes, but not Arabs, just no, they bought it like everybody else.
Also, Vikings bought Persian Wootz and used them for that batch of +ULFBERH+T swords that became famous. Back at the time Europeans had no cast furnace and made swords the same way like the Japanese, and crucible steel was traded up the Volga trade route.

This is a case of cunts buying good shit from other lands because trade is a thing.

>it took them more than 600 years to realise they had the blades facing the wrong way

Silly nips.

I wouldn't say it can hold a candle to wootz.

Or yataghans with twistcore blades with silver inlays

>Also, Vikings bought Persian Wootz and used them for that batch of +ULFBERH+T swords that became famous.
What, really?
This impies it was more from central Europe
>theepochtimes.com/n3/1134288-a-step-closer-to-the-mysterious-origin-of-the-viking-sword-ulfberht/
>A previous theory held that the swords may have their origin in the Middle East or Asia, but surprisingly it seems the materials were sourced closer to where they were found, in Central Europe.
And these articles also say German monks
>ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-technology/step-closer-mysterious-origin-viking-sword-ulfberht-002455
>But, the Ulfberht had nothing to do with the mines of India or the Wootz steel or the milkweed or the forges of the Middle East, according to recent research.
>Robert Lehmann, a chemist at the Institute for Inorganic Chemistry at the University of Hannover, told local publication Süd Deutsche in October that the material from which the Ulfberht was forged “certainly does not come from the East.”
>He studied an Ulfberht sword found in 2012 on a pile of gravel excavated from the Weser River, which flows through Lower Saxony in northwestern Germany. This sword’s blade has a high manganese content, which signalled to Lehmann that it did not come from the East.
>dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2878512/The-mystery-magical-superstrong-Viking-sword-Researchers-close-supermonks-believed-forged-weapons.html

And then there are Kerises, with their own ore that (if I remember right) have nickel content that creates various patterns.

That's the problem for me. To not accused of that "backlash", i tried to research more things about Japan, to show something like
>Katanas suck, but x from Japan was great
But the more i studied, the more in despair I was.
Their armor is absolutely terrible. They even used fucking butted mail.
But let's back to uh, katanas
>None, or very small guard for hand
>Main strength - cutting, is kinda weak, when used against armour. So from European perspective, people here used a lot of armors, so katana would be a not best choice.
>Also, two-handed. You have shitty armour, and you are using two-handed weapon? Get a shield.
>Thanks to design is bad in thrusting attacks.
>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.
>Don't forget about some mystical forging technique. Used in Europe 2000 years prior that, where later become obsolete.
Yeah, sounds like a great weapon for me. But I don't now, I would pick a European alternatives, similar to katana. Like messer, or even falchion. Or i'm fighting with unarmored opponents? Saber it is. Why would I need heavy and short sword, when i have light saber with basically same cutting abilities.

Not al Ulfberhts where crucible steel, only some, the ulfberht brand was used for a long time and construction varied over time.
The wootz Ulfbehrts in question are found around the Baltic see. Most current research indicates that the steel was likely of Samanid origin and came via the Caspian/Volga route to the Baltic. Many Samanid coins have also been found.
That source of crucible steel seems to have dried up in the 11th century, and at that same time the blast furnace was invented in southern Sweden.

HEMA beginner? You sound like a HEMA noob?

Nope

so you know jackshit about fencing and swords but argue with what you feel like by just looking at them then?

>Yeah, sounds like a great weapon for me. But I don't now, I would pick a European alternatives,
Uh oh, great manly warrior detected

You know that actually is only cosmetics and does not improve the quality of the blade? They likely had no wootz at hand and needed a fancy pattern.

So instead of making jokes, you should tell me what part of my post was wrong, and I will know it next time. Also, i think I don't need fencing practices and collection of various sword, to speak about them.
For example
If i had to choose which tank i would like to be part of crew of, i would choose T-54 over fucking Renault FT-17. I don't need be in fucking army, or have both in garage, to know, that one is kinda obsolete compared to other.

>If i had to choose
Theres you fucking wrong you moron, you do not have to choose a tank, because you not gonna fight in ww2 anytime soon, and you don't have to choose a sword, because you are not gonna fight of Burglars anytime soon. So either start to collect, train or at least read a book, because your armchair general basement dweller opinion is simply irrelevant on Veeky Forums.

Also, i can also use fucking common sense and basic knowledge. In European medieval times, there where shitload of wars, between neighbors, and also against foreign cultures. They needed to adapt quickly, so there was great and fast advance in weaponry.
On the other hand we have Japan.
Nothing
nothing
piracy
some civil war
again, more civil wars
Always using the same tactics and weapons. So, what to expect from people, who know shit about wars? That they will be shit at it.

Look, you better go back to the level of discussion there will be more to your liking, and people will make less jokes on you.

firangis were used as status weapon, like foreign cars. Footsoldiers and the like still used scimitars spears and increasingly gunpowder.

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>a high level of discourse is expected.

Firangi is a name for the the origin of the blade, not a weapons name
India is fuckhuge and 300 years is a long time
Foot soldier is a generic term so is spear and scimatar.
Your post is stupid and you should feel bad about it.

Good balanced info.
I'm also liking that fusion of cultures there in sword design.
Have a baskethilt.

Theres examples of Indian made shields (17th century) sent to Japan for lacquer decorations and then sent back to India. Apparently they liked the Japanese decorative art a lot.

So you agree that people think its the best sword because it looks nice. Cause that is kinda what I was saying. I never said there is a best sword.

Question still stands martin.....you fucking namefag.

Here's an example, kinda nice fusion

Oh shit, muh dick.
>saved

No, common consensus is that you are a retard and that your question is fucking stupid. Now please leave this thread and board and let the grown ups have their discussion.

Is that you martin?

kek

>None, or very small guard for hand
Tsuba is adequate and many swords had this type of guard, it's different than a crossguard but it protect the hands nicely. Since it was suppose to be used in armor, it's of less importance. It also serves as a counterbalance as there is no pommel. The crossguard isn't the be all end all of guard design.
>Main strength - cutting, is kinda weak, when used against armour. So from European perspective, people here used a lot of armors, so katana would be a not best choice.
It's absolutely ridiculous to compare a japanese weapon to a european standard. Context is important, you don't design a weapon to fight wars you actually don't do. Besides, have you seen how the japanese do cuts against armors? It's very similar to the italian giocco stretto, with draw cuts and strikes to the internal parts of the armor.
>Also, two-handed. You have shitty armour, and you are using two-handed weapon? Get a shield.
They had big pauldrons used like shields, plus since they had polearms, they couldn't have a shield plus a sword as backups, a sword alone is fine, so better do it two-handed, exactly the same thought process as in europe for taht matter.
>Thanks to design is bad in thrusting attacks.
It's ok at thrusting since it's very hard and stiff. May not be as good as a Type XV, sure, but it's good enough. Besides, japanese fencing tends to be 75% cuts anyway.
>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.
The forging process evolved, their main weapons were bows, spear, naginata, all those had lots of variations. Swords had less but they still had some, depending on the region (Satsuma blades aren't like Bizen who aren't like Chiba blades).
>Don't forget about some mystical forging technique. Used in Europe 2000 years prior that, where later become obsolete.
All about context, for its time and region, it was good. Who cares if it's worse than a country at the end of the world?

m8 U can't be serious

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

>sword with certified cutting test on human bodies

>actually debated saving this in my porn folder

Portugese merchants being misinterpreted. It was more of a "holy shit, they still use this shit and make it work this well?" than a "Wow these swords are 10/10 cut through plate armour"

>Their armor is absolutely terrible. They even used fucking butted mail.
By the time Euros started caring about Katanas the tanegashima and baka gaijin armour were a thing, are you literally retarded? Do you think all regions on Earth advanced at the same rate? If anything the Japs were far more adoptive on the innovation firearms brought to the battlefield than even the Spanish considering they used alternating ranks of fire before Maurice even did that shit. Get your head out of your arse and the sword out of your mouth

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niten_Ichi-ryū

I think your making the mistake of comparing apples to oranges.

Japanese armor was considered very good by the most who encountered . They had steel plate with metal segments protecting gaps as well as underarmer of chain mail or thin plate. There are very few armors in the world i would pick over it for protection.

Your thoughts on katana are overly simplistic. Of course a Katana would make little sense on a Europiean battlefield.

however, Ive actually heard mixed stuff from those who went from a tsuba to a cross guard.

an while a katana can cut they can also stab and prob gaps. In any case a sword is not your main killer.

>Also, two-handed. You have shitty armour, and you are using two-handed weapon? Get a shield.

Again they did not have bad armor and it could be used one or two handed. two handed is far better with dealing with polearms because of the leverage.

>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.

Well like my picture shows there were evolution be blade morphology. There were also differences in forging methods. Japanese warfare was rather static for hundreds of years, and the sengoku changes were not so radical that an entirely new sword was called for.

many sabers weighted almost as much as a katana, maybe a few 100 grams lees. A messur weighed as much and was shorter.

Not all swords were short by the way, tachi were often over 90cm, and there were plenty of longer swords. The shorter sword was popular in edo because it was easy to wear, it was also lighter and more suited to urban combat than a battlefield example. Most people today look at a modern katana and assume that was what they used on the battlefield, many of them today are made for cutting competitions and really are not that similar to an edo period blade, let alone a medieval example

As he pointed out they had enough utility to cavalrymen to be adapted by other cultures

>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.
Kill yourself, I'm fucking serious, if you actually think this you should kill yourself

Only fucking neckbeard weeaboos think they're any good. In actuality their shit.

You don't have to improve quality of a blade that is already of great quality.

>all fancy like
Presentation may look pretentious to you, but guess what, a high price = quality too. It all comes together, Cleetus.

A million times this

They're*

What point are you trying to make, memeboy?

> Why would I need heavy and short sword, when i have light saber with basically same cutting abilities.
> light saber
kek

>However, you can actually spend hours looking at a handmade Japanese weapon, because, holly shit whats going on with this crystal structure, this fucking mirror polish, the lines and so on.
You can find the same structures on western blades though, assuming you bother to polish them.

Pic shows an Alemannic Sax from the 5th century AD.

its shit.
There was a case when a some band of samurai chimpout over some portugese who was ripping them off. The samurai got destroyed with rapiers.

That you don't know the difference between they're (they are) shit, and their shit(a possessive term)

A proper sentence would be
"In actuality, *they're* (Nihonto) shit" or "Samurai don't think *their* shit doesn't smell"

That was a rumor based on a document that was never publicly produced.

The only Japanese account that i have seen that is similar is here, from an oral history passed down in a martial art

tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/

>“Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned
>his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”

Other accounts of 16th century encounters are pretty even handed here.

>lol weeb defending his shit sword.

I guess this is what passes as high level discourse where your from.

Do you have any sources you would like to share?

oops pic was fucked up.

So your navel battle fought with guns and cannons has what to do with this debate?

dumbass Japs does put cannons on their ships they only board.

*doesn't