I have a question. But first: I've learned to resist the enticement of money. I don't want to earn money at all...

Because fuck you that's why.

gave me a giggle

>can you answer the question without attacking my standpoint
Your standpoint is bullshit though. Asking someone to answer your question as though they agree with the premise is nonsense.

Stopping it would require a WW3 with a holocaust 2.0 and that won't happen until europe is redpilled enough. Maybe in 30-50 years or so. The world must suffer more until they realize their true enemy.

you don't have to agree.

>is bullshit
why do you think that?

I wan't you to be wrong but you're probably right.

>Then I too would be wrapped up in this game.

What's the harm? Survival of the fittest, ma nigga. You either adapt to the "new capitalism" or starve yourself to death.

whats wrong with making your own food. Why is life a competition to you?

youtube.com/watch?v=7jdlZVhh6HI&list=PLLieK7epORgSQP3QwmTUGn2Xg9IQau_NW

Here you go senpai.

>Not anymore we're devolving
Communist societies will never exist, as of now mixed market economies are making far more advancements in the world as opposed to countries that are trying out communism as a pet project.

If you want out of the system, design alternatives, like cryptocucks are doing right now.

advancements, like technology? Yeah it we get new iphones each week but is the quality of life improving?

Yes.

this is long but your trips demand I watch

depends on where you look

I would like to live like that but it is not possible where i live right now. Also, i am a bit worried. What is the best for me? Modern humans are sheeps. They like to do what others do. I have so many choices and opportunitys, i dont want to waste them.

Overall global statistics.

do you think humans are the only thing that matter?

If you can find happiness more power to you. I'm not saying we can't live this life but we really do need to change how we think about.

Yes.

are homeless people not humans?

why do only humans matter?

Homeless people are humans, and the trend for them is positive too last I checked.

Only humans matter because we are a society of humans. Other things will matter if and when they become meaningful members of that society.

Thats right. Fuck animals, they dont matter. Be vegan instead.

lets assume for a moment that the only life in the universe is on this planet. That would make even the life of a fly unfathomably rare and precious. Why does what matter stop at who involves themselves with money. Homeless arn't meaningful members of society, so they dont matter even though humans matter?

What would happen if only humans existed on this planet?

Your first two sentences (which are correct) don't match your third (which you can make a case for, but it has nothing to do with animals mattering).
>That would make even the life of a fly unfathomably rare and precious
Rare, yes.
Precious, why?
If you consider other life to be precious, should you not kill yourself so that you no longer kill other life? Is your life more precious than theirs? Humans are incapable of surviving without killing living organisms.
>Why does what matter stop at who involves themselves with money.
I'll take "things I never said" for $100 Alex.
>Homeless arn't meaningful members of society
They are though.

I accepted I cannot live without killing, so I only kill what I need to so that I will not die. I don't like it but It can't be changed. I won't smash a bug because it doesn't keep me alive.

how is society not defined by money?
how do homeless contribute?

It can be changed. You can kill yourself or allow yourself to starve to death. If you needed an organ transplant to survive but no donor could be found, would you go out and kill someone to save yourself?
>how is society not defined by money?
We aren't an-cap.
>how do homeless contribute?
Homeless can work without being homeless, among other things. Besides, I never said anything about actively contributing. I said meaningful members of society. They have the potential to contribute at any time. A fly does not. That's even before you get into how treating humans in general affects other humans who are not homeless.

>Homeless can work without being homeless
Meant "Homeless can work while being homeless".

Pray tell OP, what will you use to compensate the doctor for his knowledge, time, and effort to mend you back to health should you fall ill on your moneyless farm?

How might you design to feed yourself through a long winter in the event you have a poor harvest this autumn?

By what mechanism would you attempt to acquire animal skin to shield your shivering body from the winter's bite, when your long summer days have been occupied tilling and toiling away in your fields?

How might you endevour to acquire the land you work in the first place, and what would stop other moneyless post-modernists from harvesting your hard grown crops in the dead of night, or even blatently, in broad daylight? By what means do you legitimate your claims to that produce?

killing myself wont change a thing. If there were no laws to prevent it then it would make sense for people to just take an organ to avoid death.
>contribute to society through working for money
you need to pick a standpoint sir

>meaningful means potential
hmm

>how does any of this affect me, i'm not homeless
it probably doesn't, society was built for people like you. but the living organisms it wasn't built for are left in the dark.

you already know that as it stands the answer to those questions is money, but we could just as easily use an honor based system since money is just a social construct who's meaning is only in our heads.

what about the homeless who can't work?

>killing myself wont change a thing
It will change a thing. Far fewer things will die without you around.
>If there were no laws to prevent it then it would make sense for people to just take an organ to avoid death.
If you think this, then you are a monster and should be locked up for the safety of mankind. If you haven't caught on yet, what I'm doing is showing you that your morality is nonsensical.
>you need to pick a standpoint sir
I have, it's just not the strawman standpoint you're trying to paint me with.
>meaningful means potential
>how does any of this affect me, i'm not homeless
More strawman.
>the living organisms it wasn't built for are left in the dark
Correct, because they don't matter.

Can still contribute in other ways and their treatment is still relevant to others. The knowledge that, should we one day become disabled and homeless, we would still be treated as people is important for social functioning.

>less things die with people around
so then I should Kill everyone to save everyone
>your morality is nonsensical
no you just see a difference between humans and animals. I would kill an animal for food, I would kill a human to replace my own parts if I could. Humans are, in fact, animals too.
>they don't matter

>less things die if there were less people*
fuck

>then I should Kill everyone to save everyone
Yep, that's the insane conclusion that your morality reaches. Congrats on doing the reductio ad absurdum for me.
>no you just see a difference between humans and animals
Right, because my morality isn't nonsensical.
>I would kill a human to replace my own parts if I could
Then I say you are a dangerous psychopath and should be locked up.
>Humans are, in fact, animals too.
All humans are animals, not all animals are humans. All animals are living organisms, not all living organisms are animals.
>what would happen if only humans existed on this planet?
Then the humans would die. Since humans are what matter, we must ensure that doesn't happen. Environmental controls are a means to that end.

Your problem is you have only looked at the surface level of things.

Nigger complains about "today's capitalism" not providing advancements for society as he sits here on his tippy-tappy-typewriter-wundermaschine that was impossible to build for under say $10,000 ten years ago, but which he has today for perhaps under 1,000

Look at the long game game, and by long I mean the longer than two years game,

Companies use these shitty practices to sort of hedge against the chaotic uncertainty of the market but ultimately their products have to be good enough to survive and meet an ever increasing standard

> my morality
i was rewording yours.
>isn't nonsensical
its nonsensical to think we don't deserve equal treatment
>humans would die
no shit, That is why everything other than humans who contribute to society matter just as much if not more.

your problem is you have only looked at the surface level of things.

>Money is just a social construct
This board is for 18+ user.

The reason I not any of the other people in my thought experiment will accept being paid in honor is because while that might enable me to receive things back from you based on our 'honor' exchange, that doctor cannot use the 'honor' he received from you to acquire the medicine he needs to do his work, or the tools of medicine he lacks the knowledge to construct himself.

Money is exchange value, a fungible way to account for labor performed that allows that labor value to be exchanged between more than the two parties involved in your 'honor bound' transaction.

Why would I accept payment in 'honor' when I have no reasonable guarantee that others will accept the 'honor' you've bestowed to me? What can I do with the 'honor' given to me that was gained from you by the doctor, if you have nothing I need? If the answer is nothing, why would I trade my labor for nothing?

>I was rewording yours
False.
>its nonsensical to think we don't deserve equal treatment
I don't think that. All humans deserve equal treatment.
>That is why everything other than humans who contribute to society matter just as much if not more.
Nope. Humans are still what matters. Keeping the world in a state that can support human life is merely a means to that end. What happens to any individual non-person doesn't matter.
>your problem is you have only looked at the surface level of things.
Good comeback /sarcasm

thats why we have to change this selfish mindset

I was rewording yours assuming everything alive is the same.
>all humans deserve
what about non humans?

Whatever asshat its clear to me you only care about yourself and people like you. You arn't able to care for things you deem as lesser than you. It can't help me so why does it matter

You are a monster and you don't even know.

>I was rewording yours assuming everything alive is the same.
That's your view, not mine. My view is that humans and non-humans are NOT the same.
>what about non humans?
Nothing. They deserve nothing.
>Whatever asshat its clear to me you only care about yourself and people like you
I only care about people, if that's what you mean.
>You arn't able to care for things you deem as lesser than you.
There's no reason to. Morality exists to enable social functioning.
>It can't help me so why does it matter
I can help you if you pay attention.
>You are a monster and you don't even know.
You're the one who would go out and kill people if he could, not me.

Come back when you've resolved your cognitive dissonance.

you need to sit in the corner and think about your life if you're this closed minded. I hope you are never in a high military position.

This is what it comes down to OP.

It's not that we enjoy or endorse it, we literally don't have a choice. It's a game you're forced to play.

>closed minded
Ah yes, the eternal cry of the one who spouts inane babbling. My mind isn't closed, it just doesn't accept bullshit.
>I hope you are never in a high military position
Why not? People matter, therefore civilian casualties would be a factor to me. You're the one who should never be allowed near a weapon.

people are not all that matters. And neither is society. This is why you're closed minded. You need to step back for a while, you're too absorbed in your own ways.

what would you do if you did have a choice?

>people are not all that matters. And neither is society.
They are though.
>This is why you're closed minded.
No, this is why your position is bullshit, as I've already demonstrated.
>You need to step back for a while, you're too absorbed in your own ways.
I've actually thought about my position. You should try it.

>they are though
are not
>this is bullshit
closed minded

we can do this all day

>we can do this all day
I know, except that I can show that my position is consistent while yours leads to absurd self-destruction. That's the difference between us: you merely assert, I show the consequences.

there is consequences to not caring for the living being we share our planet with and rely on for survival. you don't understand the value of life. You only understand the value of money

>there is consequences to not caring for the living being we share our planet with and rely on for survival
Other than the survival of people, which is what matters in my view, what is the consequence?
>you don't understand the value of life
Okay. What value does life have? Explain.
>You only understand the value of money
Nope. Again, we aren't an-cap.

>whats the consequence
the destruction of our world

the value of life is not measurable and above all else. We are 1 planet of life among what seems like an infinite number of lifeless ones.

>the destruction of our world
I said "other than the survival of people." The destruction of our world goes against the survival of people. Please try again.
>the value of life is not measurable and above all else.
Why?
>We are 1 planet of life among what seems like an infinite number of lifeless ones.
So?

My question is, how do you not support it?

>try again
you know well enough not caring for other living beings will cause our destruction. But you chose to not care.

we value gold because its "rare"

the value of life is 1/∞ Nothing could be more rare and therefore valuable.

>other than the survival of people
the survival of all life in the universe. Not just you, you selfish prick

and to answer your confusion about the organ thing

you would kill someone trying to kill you. You think theres a difference between killing someone for your survival and killing someone for your survival

>you know well enough not caring for other living beings will cause our destruction
I don't know that actually. If we treat a cow badly before killing it for food, how does that cause our destruction more than treating that cow nice before killing it for food?
>we value gold because its "rare"
So you are arguing for market value? If so, all life has a numerical value from livestock prices and insurance policies.
>the value of life is 1/∞ Nothing could be more rare and therefore valuable.
You don't understand how gold is valued then.
Why is the survival of non-people life important other than as it affects our own survival? Tell me why instead of merely asserting it.

I would kill someone trying to unjustly kill me because such a person is a danger to society. Society would collapse if you couldn't defend yourself. The same reasoning cannot be used for killing someone to take their organs.

If you don't support it, what does it mean in practice? Do you refuse to use money? Are you stealing everything that you need? I don't see how you can function in the society without supporting the system, unless if you get off this website right now and go live deep in the middle of the woods as a hermit (and probably end up like Chris McCandless).

I'm not all that happy with the system we have. I can't change the entire world around me, though. So I'm focusing on the things that I can change, and I'm trying to improve my own life. Besides, I don't have the answers; I don't know how to make the best possible society, all systems seem to have their own flaws. This "honor-based system" that you're suggesting makes me wonder whether you're a troll or a very naive person

It can be argued that understanding the. value of money is useful for the preservation of life. The reason why humans are driven to seek and accumulate resources comes from primal need to provide for them and their families and make sure their genes are passed on.

You are also falling in the logic trap that it is one vs the other. You can accumulate resources AND help preserve life. More resources = more chances to get your ideas out there and execute on them.

Are you just going to ignore this OP? It seems like you don't have an answer.

Lets assume an infinite amount of time. We continue to grow, we kick out everything that doesn't fit in our society. Insects, animals that can't do, eventually we wouldn't be able to sustain life. If the atmosphere doesn't become thick and too hot from our emissions to kills us the lack of plant life surely will.

>life has value
yes, but its isn't really measurable and it is much higher than anything else. just trying to help you understand.

>why is it important still?
Why isn't it important? There's no answer for this question. Why is human life important? You can say nothing matters or you can say everything matters. Its about how you look at it. But to say only 1 thing matters is selfish and stupid.

>there is a difference between killing someone for survival and killing someone for survival
The difference is in your mind and isn't real. "morality" is just how you think about it.

I don't function in it, I simply say no. We can change it if we work together. I'm not saying we should do that one, its just a possibility. First we need to get people to understand that not just themselves matter.

yes the age old survival of the fittest that has been around since the dawn of time. Perfect from the beginning idea. How can it be wrong if animals do it too? Its wrong if you care about those who are not the fittest. We can help preserve life but first we need to care about it. As it is we don't do much of the preserving of it. We're more concerned about our next paycheck.

I don't support it, that's why I'm a NEET degenerate. How anyone can reasonably expect people to tolerate working 40-50 hours a week and having little time and energy for themselves, whilst not even being paid for 30-40% of their labor (because of the taxman and all the time they have to spend commuting/preparing for work) is beyond me.

Shove your system up your ass.

the answer is they're selfish. don't be selfish and there is no problem.

>Lets assume an infinite amount of time. We continue to grow, we kick out everything that doesn't fit in our society. Insects, animals that can't do, eventually we wouldn't be able to sustain life. If the atmosphere doesn't become thick and too hot from our emissions to kills us the lack of plant life surely will.
Why do you keep repeating this argument even after I've shown you several times that it doesn't work?
>yes, but its isn't really measurable and it is much higher than anything else.
Why though?
>just trying to help you understand.
You aren't though. You just keep asserting things.
>There's no answer for this question.
Okay, then I can ignore you.
>Why is human life important?
Because we are human. Human life matters because we decide that it does. This allows us to survive and function.
>You can say nothing matters or you can say everything matters.
Or you can say some things matter and others don't.
>But to say only 1 thing matters is selfish and stupid.
As I've shown, it's not selfish and it's more intelligent than your position.
>The difference is in your mind and isn't real.
In the sense that concepts don't exist in reality, sure.
>"morality" is just how you think about it.
Yes, but how you think about morality has consequences. My morality has consequences that enable people to survive and prosper. Your morality leads to everyone going around killing everyone else or starving themselves to death. My morality will outlasts yours.

Because I want to become the little boot, user.

> Its wrong if you care about those who are not the fittest

What is "wrong" if not another "social construct" like you say money is? Morality is just another human invention that we put value into.

>i've shown you that it doesn't work
no you havn't
>why tho
its rare
>i can ignore you
you answer your own question in the next statement "because I say so"
>shows intelligent
that's the same logic as black lives matter and its common knowledge that all lives matter
>it has consequences
yeh if you get caught you go to jail because its against the law, Do it on an island with no one around and all of a sudden no one cares.

follow your dreams

can't argue with that, its just how I feel. I'm mad that its not common for people to feel the same.

>no you havn't
Yes, I have. Since people matter, we must ensure that our world can continue to support us. I've said this to you multiple times. This in no way means that we have to treat things well.
>its rare
I fail to see how that's relevant.
>because I say so
Alright, then since my "I say so" is better than yours, I win.
>that's the same logic as black lives matter and its common knowledge that all lives matter
It's common knowledge that all people's lives matter. I doubt many people care that you kill yeast to bake leavened bread.
>Do it on an island with no one around and all of a sudden no one cares
False. Why do you think laws exist in the first place? Do you think they were magicked into existence? No, people made them because some people like you fail to recognize why society is important. I'm sorry that you lack a basic sense of morality, but there you go. Maybe seek counseling?

yes, people matter, so do lions, bees, and trees. Its not just for our own survival but for the survival of all life. You're missing the whole picture.
>i win
except your logic is selfish greedy and therefore evil.
>why do laws exist
they exist because of people like you who have a problem with caring and it forces them to care.

if you ignore the law you were about to die, someone has something that keeps you alive and there's nothing to stop you from doing it you would do it. I'm rephrasing your own logic here and you still don't see it.

its the same logic as the girl who slaps the boy and says "you cant hit me i'm a girl"

you can't do that to a human, they're humans

Hd

Complains about money on the biz thread

>Its not just for our own survival but for the survival of all life.
Which comes back to why the survival of all life is important. By your own admission, you have no answer.
>except your logic is selfish greedy and therefore evil.
Nope, nope, and nope. My logic is consistent, helpful, and good.
>they exist because of people like you who have a problem with caring and it forces them to care
You're the one who thinks it would be fine to kill someone for their organs, not me. I care about people and do not require laws to do so.
>if you ignore the law you were about to die, someone has something that keeps you alive and there's nothing to stop you from doing it you would do it.
No I wouldn't.
>I'm rephrasing your own logic here and you still don't see it.
No, you aren't. You're rephrasing the logic that I applied to your position to show how absurd it is. This is the problem with you, not me.

Except not, because boys and girls are part of the same society.

Your posts sound uncannily like a freshman majoring in philosophy. I recommend stepping away from the computer and spending time with friends instead of arguing anonymously on Veeky Forums.

>this blind
your logic is humans that are meaningful to society > everything else
my logic is everything is =

if there were no laws to stop you then survival of the fittest amirite

stop thinking about just yourself and try thinking for everything around for once in your meaningless life.

other than "because i say so" why are humans better than anything

>your logic is humans that are meaningful to society > everything else
My logic is that all humans are meaningful to society and > everything else
>my logic is everything is =
Right, which fails and leads to the problems already discussed where you have to kill yourself or others.
>if there were no laws to stop you then survival of the fittest amirite
Survival of the fittest doesn't mean what you think it means. As a social animal, humans that can function in society are more fit than humans that cannot. Morality is a trait that evolved.
>stop thinking about just yourself and try thinking for everything around for once in your meaningless life.
I've already given this far more thought than you have.

You're posting messages on the internet with a device that costs money. The internet connection costs money too. Unless if your living standards deviate massively from the norm, the place you live in costs money, and you have to buy your food instead of being self-sufficient. In the end you are functioning in the system and supporting it, even if you're doing it poorly.

How do you expect to convince people not to be selfish? What sort of incentive is there for people to welcome the idea of being paid in honor rather than money? Every person guards their own interests, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's justified for people to rather keep their income and quality of life, instead of accepting your economical model that sounds vague, idealistic and unsustainable.

Besides, you don't practice what you preach yourself either. You're selfish enough to shitpost and avoid work, instead of going out into the wilderness and cutting off your ties to the system that you dislike. How much of a chance you'll have convincing other people to stop being selfish if you can't even convince yourself?

Other than "because I say so" why is everything equal?

>all humans are meaningful to society
>humans that fit into a system we created are more fit than the ones who can't do anything
>i put thought into this
do you know what meaningful even means?
it means to have meaning. Being fit is a meaning. Humans are equal and unequal. your logic is flawed.

because we are all made of the same material.

>convince people not to be selfish
death. they want to be selfish they can figure out how to survive without help. put them on a boat and ship them out to sea. If you need a reason to help another person just get out.

this is mostly a joke. But its how I feel.

Honestly its something we struggle with no matter what we do. But just like our own desire for sex we can fight past it. To some it might seem impossible but it can be done.

>do you know what meaningful even means?
Meaningful (adj): having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose.
>Being fit is a meaning
A meaning, not the only meaning.
>Humans are equal and unequal.
Humans are unequal in some ways and equal in others.
>your logic is flawed.
False. My logic stands.
>because we are all made of the same material.
Okay, then my answer is because we are all part of human society.

On that note, I have shit to do. I hope you appreciate the time that I just spent on you and think about why your position is fundamentally flawed.

when you accept that all life is the same you see your flaws.

think about why you feel something is less then you, and then ask your self why. If you get an answer ask why more.

You're arguing with an user that's either an underage teenager or has a cognitive disability, they're to dense to realize the glaring holes in every single one of their arguments, and will exercise mental gymnastics to try to justify their positions.

tl;dr youtube.com/watch?v=2TbbvXK5QS8 should have been posted

what glaring hole do you see in my argument?

Wait, why?
I outlined the reason why this system produces more wealth and better things for every member of society in the long run