Northern Ireland's Troubles

Not an expert on it but my understanding it has its roots from the 30 year war. Britain was protestant and saw the catholic irish as an eternal threat for revolution.

The reason that British Loyalist Protestants are even in Ireland is due to the plantation of Ulster. Ulster was historically the most troublesome province for the British. So they adopted a different method if dealing with the Ulster Irish, by giving land incentives for Protestants from lowland Scotland and north England to move there and manage the land the British government had confiscated from the native Irish.
Their purpose was to be as anti-Irish as possible in service to the crown's interests in the isle.
So then you had the natives living alongside (or under) the invaders, with both groups having polar opposite interests, opposite religions and different cultures and language.
This sentiment remains to this day
Read my post. Though you're right in a way. The British have always looked down on the Irish

I was alive for a whole 2 years of the troubles. Ask me anything.

What's the craic?

Which years?

It's Monday mate, there is no craic.
96-98.
I've seen shit.

>mate
Brits out

So basically it is due to the colonisation of Ireland by brits in an attempt to curb unrest in ulster, but which produced a contrary effect to the desired, creating even more unrest
Would you say the situation in Ulster was more or less similar to the Segregation in the southern american states or the aparthaid?

I have another question. If the Royal Ulster Constanbulary were clearly on the unionist/loyalist side, what made the protestant community take up arms against the catholics and create their own paramilitaries which were just as outside the law as the Nationalist ones? If jurisdiction was on the Unionist side, why operate illegally?

Could you describe, if you may?
How much did sectarianism affect individual relationships between catholics and protestants?

It was similar yes, with one big difference in the result. Once civil rights were achieved, Catholics became even more successful than the Protestants, instead of burning down the country.

The Unionist paramilitaries already existed due to the Irish negotiations for Home Rule just before WWI. They formed their paramilitaries with the objective of armed struggle should the legislation pass. In retaliation, the Irish formed the Irish Volunteers, who's members became Ireland's army, and the IRA, when independence was achieved.

The same way the Irish were conducting an armed struggle for independence the Ulster protestants were ready to take up arms to preserve the status quo if Home Rule was enacted. But wouldn't they be going against the very own government they pledged loyalty to against the Irish Nationalists?

So basically the Troubles were a re-run of the conflict that happened in the early 20th century, with basically the same sides struggling for the same principles, the Nationalists self-determination and the Unionists the maintenance of British rule in Ireland, but this time only on the six counties of Ulster

>But wouldn't they be going against the very own government they pledged loyalty to against the Irish Nationalists?
>Going to war with Britain to stay part of Britain
Fuck me Ireland is retarded.

Bingo. If you're interested in The Troubles you should hear some of the stories the old lads tell when no ones around. Running through bombed out buildings kids and finding weapons caches full of machine guns, dressing up as IRA men and running from British soldiers. Running messages for the IRA by putting letters in the inside of their bike handles. Where my mother lived there was a down syndrome lad, about 21, everyone in the area knew him. The brits stopped him and questioned him, when he couldn't answer their questions they thought he was mocking them. They beat him with their rifles and put him in hospital. The entire area erupted in mass riots, and the IRA began a 3 day stand off with the brits, bullets and bombs flying every which way.
Another time, my granny had a cousin visiting from England (born to Irish parents but he had an English accent) and he stupidly went for a drink in the local pub (an IRA hub). After hearing his accent, boys in balaclavas thought he was a soldier off duty and were after his knees. My granny remembers a full grown man, hiding under her bed in snot and tears, then IRA men burst in the house and tried to drag him out. My ma and da tell stories of lying in their beds and hearing a bomb go off. They say they'll never forget the sheer, deafingly silence after.
Spooky stuff
But if you ever visit, don't ask someone about unless they trust you and their not in public.

Their objective was to go to war the newly independent Irish state

I say "after his knees" but in all honestly they most likely would've killed him

How much did the Paras terrorise its own population (eg. violence and intimidation by part of loyalist paras on protestant civilians and the IRA on catholics)?
Did they operate similar to a mafia with the same extortion and intimidation tactics?

And how much is a taboo to speak about such matters nowadays?

As far as I'm aware there was very little of that. The IRA was made up of the young men of that community. They wore masks but the locals knew who they and they're families. The lived in the same houses and went to the same schools.

>taboo
As a foreigner? Best not discuss it in the open, at the very least it'll be considered rude. Even I wouldn't ask my friend's da about his experiences unless he tells me of his own accord. People lost family in the most horrid ways and it was a hellish time. Quite a personal thing to talk about with someone who wasn't there for it aswell.

Would you say extreme measures like that one were done out of a sense of protection of the catholic community against possible Loyalist infiltrations, or simply because the IRA wanted to smash him up for being an Englishman? Because that kind of sectarian violence, from what i've read it was performed more by Loyalist Paras

The main cause was how unfair everything was on the actual Irish people.

They were denied employment and sometimes purposely killed in industrial "accidents" if they did get a job (such as somebody dropping some huge piece of metal on them in a shipyard).
Poor people were denied social housing, in fact the whole thing started when one council house was given to a single protestant woman when there a few large families on the waiting list in that area.
Protestants actually had multiple votes while Catholics only had one, and all political boundries were gerrymandered to split up Catholic votes. (Derry was 85% Catholic but the city council was 85% Protestant).
The police force was almost entirely Protestant and they were known to go into Catholic areas and murder people with sledgehammers on occasion.
But probably the most inflammatory act is the yearly "marching season" which lasts all summer, in which the Anti-catholic Orange Order marches up and down Catholic towns rubbing their noses in it, which is an absolute joke - could you imagine the KKK marching around Detroit while being protected by the police?

Nah I was taking the mick a bit, it was mainly all over when I was growing up, other than making fun of Irish names there was not much going on for me. My family is from a 95%+ protestant area so not much happened during the troubles for them either.

They IRA thought he was a soldier and soldier = catholic killer
They were right to chase after him imo, afterall who the fuck would come to IRA central in the middle of all that with an English accent. But fortunately for him, he jumped in the back of a milk van, made it to my granny's house and she was able to explain the situation to the IRA. They let him go but warned him never to come back Ireland, and he never did.

How much weight has the Orange Order in stirring up conflict between catholics and protestants?

They're quite good at it. They make sure they always march through Catholic areas and antagonise the residents

Holy shit, an actual Troubles thread full of relatively accuracte information.

Before "The IRA did nothing wrong" kiddies or Orangemen show up, I'm going to contribute to this lovely little thread with 2 movies about the Troubles which potray them very well, from different perspectives.

Enjoy, non Ulstermen:

>50 DEAD MEN WALKING
>From the view of a catholic irish guy in Belfast, recruited by the IRA and then turned into a double agent
>Shows the darker side of the IRA, specifically punishments toward informants or traitors
>A good movie to keep you away from thinking the IRA were just freedom fighters and nothing more

>'71
>From the view of a British Soldier on the run in Belfast, hunted by the IRA
>Shows the clear split in the IRA between young, radicalized irish kids who were out for british/protestant blood and the more hesitant about the whole thing
>Shows the brutality of the RUC against irish people
>Shows the level which the British officials were involved with loyalist paramilitaries, as well as the disregard for many Ulster civilians (on both sides of the split)
>Gives you clear examples of how Belfast became split into "Protestant" and "Catholic" areas with clear boundaries
>Has an absolutely incredible scene in Divis flats

Both quite recent, both very good. I recommend them both.

I'm Catholic. When I meet people they are asking me what town I am from and whats my surname to find out if I'm Catholic or Protestant. Sometimes people are visibly disgusted when they find out I'm Catholic. The place I work in is majority Protestant and some of the more extreme bigots have been trying to get me to quit by making my life hell, even told me I was taking away a Protestant job.
Its hard to believe you still get this kind of shit in the 21st century.

Both are very good, obviously not 100% accurate but they'll have you hooked the whole way through
In The Name Of The Father is also a great film

Could you develop a bit further on the role of Pubs in the conflict? I know some of them did act as headquarters for local paramilitary cells

That's what they were, headquarters. Not much else to say about it.

>Orange Order

Very good at triggering fenians, but they are a joke now.
I admired them growing up, despite growing up in a very irish family.
I was always into history, particularly of my own country, and like it or not the Orange Order does have a big history in our country as does protestantism.

If Ireland ever United, I always wanted the Orange Order and all that to remain and have a presence in Ulster because a lot of the marches are neato.

Trouble is, they went full retard and are now on the "IRISH PRIVILEGE, PROTESTANTS ARE OPPRESSED, DINDU NUFFIN"

>Rioted for days over a fucking flag
>Wasted millions and millions of pounds on a pointless camp and protest over a commission dedicated to making sure there's less fucking riots during parades
>Spew shit and lies about the history of their own country
>Generally help Unionism become the massive humiliation it is today

Unionists hate 'their' paramilitaries (other than the original 1912 UVF) and view them as little more than thugs. There was a hitch during the Good Friday agreement negotiations because nationalists wanted IRA men released from prison and thought unionists would be happy enough with this if their paras were released too, but the unionists generally held an attitude of 'let them rot'.

They literally march through Catholic towns once a week for the whole summer, sometimes stopping outside Catholic churches when they pass them for extra annoyance.

What antagonises the residents is simply what the order represents, that is protestant supremacy over Ulster, or there are other provocative actions that take place during their marches?

Pretty much what the other guy said, they acted as an HQ.

Think about pubs today. A lot of small local pubs have a community and a stranger walking in gets weird/dirty looks. They don't feel very welcome.

During the Troubles, this was massively, massively amplified. Walk into the wrong pub and you could get very, very hurt for something very small.

Thus, Pubs acted as a natural safe-spot.

Running from Brits? Hide in the local.
IRA looking for you? Hide in the local.

What the fuck man? They're vehemently anti-irish Catholic. They're utter retards and do nothing but antagonise the Irish. Their entire culture is based around "muh battle of the boyne" "muh fuck the Pope"
They're scum
That and the stone throwing, the spitting, the insults
Again you should remember that many people lost family in the war, and don't take kindly to the people responsible marching past their house and abusing them

Their whole attitude is that they are first class citizens and Catholics are third class citizens and must be constantly reminded that the orange order can act like complete assholes at will.
It is absolutely disgusting.

How thuggish were unionist paras?

They mostly would drive into a Catholic area and shoot anybody they see walking around the street, man woman or child. This was supposed to intimidate people.

People like to demonise the IRA as civilian killing terrorists. Prepositionately, the Unionist paramilitaries were worse
They had the British Army on their side, and knew they could get away with almost anything
Google the Shankill Butchers

Unionist paras were just gangsters and were despised as such. But being bombed regularly can drive young men to do stupid shit.

>they had the British Army on their side

Oh im sorry, afterall look at the those Loyalists killed by the British army like umm.....

Aye, i've read about the Shankill butchers. Sick shit
From what i've read I always had the impression Loyalists hated much more the catholics than vice-versa, being this hatred expressed in actions like those done by the shankill butchers, or the loyalist reprisals done on catholics after the Shankill Bombing in 1993

Not him, but yes they did.

The British Army Officials actively conspired with some of the larger sects of the Unionist paras to co-ordinate attacks, even on civilian areas.

The amount of British involvement in the deaths of Irish civilians at the hands of Loyalist paras is covered up to a ni-tier revisionist level in Ulster,and bringing it up gets you absolutely lynched.

>

Don't reply to him. We have a good thead going lets not ruin it

>tfw more and more people are educating themselves
>tfw more and more people starting to accept that the Troubles were not what Unionists tell us they were
>tfw fear voting will come to an end in our lifetime
>tfw Unionism is already a laughing stock as a whole
>tfw hardline Unionist asshurt is only just beginning

One of the thing that fascinates me about the Troubles is that such sectarianism characteristic of third world countries exists in a developed place
If i'm not bothering do you have any more accounts?

Do you lads think that Catholics will start voting for Unionist parties now? This is their big plan for the future of saving unionism now that Catholics are the majority population.

No

It's already happening. Northern Irish as a national identity is growing, and is more popular with catholics than with protestants by a bit.

...

Why would Catholics want to save Unionism? unionist governments were responsible for all the mistreatment of the catholic population during the 20th century

By the way, what's the current NI government position on all of this?

All it takes is one slip up by the British and the Irish identity will soar again. Besides, identifying as "Northern Irish" doesn't mean you don't support reunification

Current NI government is shared between the hardcore unionists, DUP, and the hardcore nationalists Sinn Fein.
Both have UVF and IRA links respectively

Is it sliding more to the unionist side or the nationalist side, or there has been a status quo for some time?

Alliance, UUP and SDLP too.

Gradually sliding to the nationalist side due to the steady rise in the Catholic population.
Meme parties who accomplish nothing

Its not really something I like talking about for obvious reasons but sure.
One person I worked with was a former loyalist paramilitary who was fresh out of jail. Every single day he used to tell me about how his uncle murdered many Catholics, about how I was a foreigner and should fuck off out of Northern Ireland if I didnt like these kinds of things, saying that I was probably in the IRA and he'd shoot me if he found out I was.
I had to report him because I couldn't listen to this shit every day, he did not get fired but instead everybody started calling me a liar.

Another time at lunch they started slyly joking to me about a man who was murdered by the police who mutilated his body (I dont want to give details because it was a famous case) - that man was a distant cousin of mine. I'm not sure if they knew that since they were joking iun a very sly and indirect way, perhaps thinking I didnt know what they were talking about.

So a future secession of Northern Ireland is yet still possible if the Catholic population wills it? In the same fashion of the Scotland referendum

Yes, though nothing will be done anytime soon

>tfw middle class Catholics vote for Alliance and won't support reunification
>tfw politicians committed to reunification will never hold office in the Dail

If someone serious about it was in power in the south then maybe but until then it will never happen. Though their eternal state of being triggered over the irish language is funny.

I should add that a lot of Catholics are aware of the economic downside to reunification, it would cause a few years of recession and they aren't willing to put their families at risk.
But should a Troubles 2.0 occur, you'll see it be called for faster than you can blink

I'm sorry for making you talk about that, but such accounts are really important for a foreigner like me to understand the frigid relationship between Catholics and Protestants in NI, I thought that such sentiment had been much weaker ever since the Good Friday agreements and that people didn't care about that as much as they did
Would you say that what you experienced is a widespread reality to other catholic persons?

Sinn Fein put up a video claiming there'll be economic benefits to reunification to the tune of 35 billion euros. lol

>Though their eternal state of being triggered over the irish language is funny.
From what I've seen you are more triggered over our 'language' than vice versa.

Then Catholics would be willing to stay in the Union just for the economic circumstances that would arise from a reunification, as long as their rights were fully respected?

Well their whole attitude is that they have the right to do things like that since Catholics are unwanted second-class citizens, it all ties in with the orange order marches and random loyalist murders of innocent people. This is their right.

>Would you say that what you experienced is a widespread reality to other catholic persons?

Absolutely, every single one of them experiences this every day if they live here.

Doubt it but I'm not an economist. Gon link the video le do thoil
Probably yes, Catholics now have sway in NI and live isn't as awful as it once was. Plus we see everything that's happening in the Republic (water charges, widespread police strikes, 3rd world immigration) and don't fancy it much.
It will take something to trigger the reunification

>What was essentially the main cause of such conflict?
Causes go back to the plantation of Ulster but the main cause was civil rights marches and the actual beginning of conflicts was when the UVF petrol bombed Holy Cross Girl's school in Belfast.

>good thead
This has been a republican hug box if I've ever seen one.

Feel free to disprove anything ive said lad, ill wait.

Well, that sounds like something i'd expect from Rwanda or even the Balkans
Is there any hope for that feeling of "catholics are below us protestants, we can do whatever we want with them" disappear? Because eventually you have to move on, right?

Well if you have a more loyalist based perspective feel free to contribute, as long as it is civil

Daily reminder that if everyone in Northern Ireland was a Jehovah's Witness we could have avoided all this.

>Is there any hope for that feeling of "catholics are below us protestants, we can do whatever we want with them" disappear?

Nope, this is their whole culture. Its drilled into them from birth and they quite enjoy it, makes them feel good about themselves to be better than other people.

>loyalist
nope
Nah, don't care enough.

Kek

>i will not contribute but i will complain
Brilliant, or ye could just fuck away off like

The ancestors of the Protestant people were originally from Ulster and part of the 10 lost tibes of Israel. Due to fenian persecution they emigrated to the kingdom of Dal Raida in Western Scotland before returning to their original homeland in Ulster to take it back from the Irish immigrants squatting there.

I guess that's a parody of something the Orange Order believes in

I have finished complaining and shall be leaving.

Slan leat mó chara

Could someone explain what made the IRA split into the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA? What was the difference between both?

Yep

>we should negotiate a peace t. Older members
>fuck that, all or nothing t. Young members

>We should vote and be Marxists instead of nationalists
>No

But wasn't Cuchulainn nonetheless an irish hero who defended Ulster from Connact when Ireland was divided into several realms?
That seems like a bad interpretation of history by the UDA

The offical IRA had a marxist ideology and was based in Dublin. When the troubles started in the 1960's it consisted of old men discussing communist theory in cafes.
Catholic areas were being attacked in severe rioting and the people there looked to the IRA for help since the police and government were part of the riots.
The OIRA insisted on directing the response since they were the offical ones, but didnt actually do anything effective so instead the PIRA split off to direct their own efforts. They abandoned discussing pretentious Marxist wankology in cafes and focused on trying to defend the Catholic areas from the riots who wanted to burn all the houses down and kill or drive out the Catholics.
The OIRA became butthurt that nobody was listening to them and decided to retire.

>muh k/d ratio

By the way, what was the purpose of these murals? And why I have seen more Loyalist murals than nationalist ones floating in the internet?