It's like at a job interview where they say 'just be yourself' Oh sure, as long as your self is in accordance with their requirements (punctual, hard working etc) otherwise gtfo there's someone else to interview.
The lie is the sin that precedes all others. If you do not commit another sin, and live a life perfeclty Christian but somewhere along the way lost your belief in God, then the entire time you did not believe but still went to church, prayed, got your kid baptised or whatever: you were living a lie, a life not in accordance with your nature, your genuine beliefs: all your "good/moral" actions are necessarily an untruthful act.
But we are sinners by default, born into inherent sin, it is part of our very being and so we must repent and so on.
Well then... if we are sinners, to deny ourselves sin when we feel compelled is to sin in itself by lying. How can we repent from that? By trying not to sin? But that would be to sin.
The ways out are to believe absolutely and live piously or not believe and abandon religion, living truthfully in doing so and therefore immediately redeeming every other kind of sin you commit in its enactment.
This is why animals aren't judged in the same way. They have no understanding of these concepts, they live totally impulsively and so completely honestly. They are incapable of sin in more than one way.
TL:DR should the Christian heaven exist, everyone's going - whether they believe it or not.
Hm, reading this back is making me regret posting when so tired, made a few mistakes, but would love to hear what you spot/think about the reasoning.
Noah Anderson
sola gratia, sola fide, soli deo gloria
Your concerns are an overcomplication my friend, and a superfluous pedantry that is ultimately invalid. Your conception of the sin of lieing is too broad. Think of the meaning of deceit and who is being deceived. Neither is their a balancing act of sins where sin redeems sin. Animals do not live in a covenant of God, nor do they have our duty in the hierarchy of living.
Godspeed my friend.
Christopher Bell
>sola gratia, sola fide, soli deo gloria
And what I mean by that is, works or good deeds do not get to heaven. Only through God and justified by faith.
Cooper Sullivan
you don't walk as a christian alone because jesus lives inside of you and this is what paul meant by being in christ so therefore the flesh and the spirit are warring within us so that we do not always do as we want because the old man adam is in the process of dying while the new man in christ is in the process of being born and we must bear this tension during our time on earth since our flesh desires sin but the holy spirit living in us desires god so jesus teaches us to deny ourselves that the spirit can work but it is true that not everyone has the spirit
Lincoln Davis
When one is dealing with life and death, particularly eternal damnation, "getting it right" and therefore deliberation is paramount.
If works and deeds do not get you to heaven, then why make so many superfluous rules concerning them?
I'm not saying sin redeems sin, I'm saying that the sin is absolved, and is therefore no longer a sin, in the very act; when one is acting truthfully. This, because when acting piously from a position of dishonesty, the same logic applies inversely - piety is corrupted and becomes sinful.
Luke Miller
If we deny ourselves and go into "autopilot" if you will, how do you know when it's he spirit and not something else? Does it even matter whether you know? After all if we are meant to deny ourselves then whatever we believe should be irrelevant to us...
Nathan Richardson
know a tree by it fruit and the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
i have to go now but ill be back later
Joseph Miller
well thought OP
Charles Campbell
I dont completely follow the last bit but i'd say, that isnt a sin. You're using the word "lie" too broadly. The sin is only in consciously and knowingly decieving another person.
Living in a way that is opposed to your sinful disposition isn't the same as the sin of lieing as deception in the bible. And surely, if you wanted to not live that way (even when compelled), I don't see how that is lieing to yourself if you truly want to do it.
Works don't get you into heaven, but they are generally a show of faith. Someone with true faith would abide those things and if someone wants to develop their faith and love of god, then someone would and would want to follow those rules to be close with and get to know their father and abide by them. But someone cannot get into heaven by being good. its only through the grace of god.
I'll give you some advice though, don't listen to pentecostals or calvinists like that guy there with the dog. Bad news that lot.
Eli King
>>>/canterbury/
Nathaniel Wood
>should the Christian heaven exist
It doesn't. Wow, that was easy.
Eli Peterson
>implying
Colton Nguyen
Protip: Any religion that posits the existence of a hell is a false religion. If there is a god, he would be so alien to us that the idea of him judging us for our "sins" is retarded narcissism.
Anthony Turner
whether you believe in sin or not, when someone sins against you it is completely natural to want justice
Levi Anderson
keep your pro tips to yourself if you're not going to bother addressing the point at hand, thanks.
Jordan Barnes
as we're going by the bible, seeing as God knows what is written on a man's heart, it is impossible to lie to God, if lying is not simply speaking/acting an untruth but is to intentionally deceive - he knows the truth either way and so cannot be deceived and we cannot intend to deceive God knowing that he knows everything.
Touching on your earlier post, talking about the meaning of deceit and who is deceived, God cannot be deceived and we cannot deceive ourselves (not like George Orwell's fictitious concept of 'double think') but then if works and good deeds "..." then why do we need to do hem to demonstrate faith?
God knows if we have faith or not, there is no need to demonstrate it.
It doesn't make sense. (I'm really enjoying thrashing this out btw)
Charles Lewis
In that someone with faith generally does good works, then the works are an extension of the mind. It is what one is compelled to do by his mind if he wants to appease God. Having those thoughts in your mind and not demonstrating in real life is kind of a paradox. That is not to say outwardly demonstrating something is always easy. People can be inhibited from doing things out of things like anxiety or anger or other emotinos like that. Someone may truly want to love their father because they know it would be right but cannot bring themself to outwardly do it easily.
Leo Nguyen
works isnt evidence of faith per se.
Brayden Gomez
>someone with faith generally does good works Is there any evidence for that?
>outwardly demonstrating something is always easy Hmm, I don't know about that, it's not even obvious/straightforward all of the time, hence the discussion we're having, I think a prerequisite of something being done intentionally and it being easy is for it to be clear to the individual in question.
So... What you're saying is, neither actions nor intentions affect your salvation, one must have faith only?
If you're saying that good works are not a prerequisite but bad works are a definite no-no, then what's in between? Doing nothing? Arguably doing nothing is the same as doing something bad...
As far as I can see my original metaphor of the job interview stands true: be yourself, as long as yourself is in accordance with what is required (possessing faith). Bear in mind one cannot believe in God and have faith in God simultaneously.
Xavier Morales
My mistake, not true, I was confusing belief with trust.
Austin Kelly
i said outward demonstrations isnt always easy.
Im not sure i said that bad works are a definite no-no. All sins can be forgiven. Good works (or the intention for) and faith are inseperable -
People can be good without the intention of faith, but one cannot have faith without the intention of good works.
>Bear in mind one cannot believe in God and have faith in God simultaneously.
i dont get this... or even if you replace it with trust or whatever.
I actually don't get your interview analogy atm either. Just forget the works for now; the priority is faith.
Luis White
Why would everyone go to heaven?
Hunter James
There is only one route of objective good, from which to decipher all other good deeds, whether inspired by faith or not, but that which create the necessary ingredients to be a good person and to do what God seems to want us to do, according to all major religion, monotheistic/pagan etc.
That route of all objective good is: how do we treat other people? To what extent are our actions informed by the desire to serve others than ourselves? Our challenge as humans and not animals, is to ignore selfish impulses when they come at considerable expense of others. There is clearly an exception in terms of personal health and safety which is where things get a but muddy; eg. should you run into a burning building to save someone's life? But situations like that are definitely best tackled on a case by case basis.
Chase Jenkins
absolutely heretical reported for iniquity
anyone interested in the Truth: come visit 8ch/christian/
David White
>implying there arent minor deities who care an awful lot about you and arent that alien
Nolan Wood
I think religious faith goes beyond ethics though.
fuck off, i saw you before on that other thread.
Dominic Rogers
Yearning
Mason Sullivan
God be with you!
Jack Sanders
Not really, religious faith is cultural. If I grew up in an arabic country I would almost certainly be a muslim etc. All faiths sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of ethics, but different time periods and different places bring out different holy books and theologies. These are what bring out the weird shit like sexual intolerance and not eating pork etc. ideas that are the product of their time and place, whereas the macro picture which every interpretation of divine instruction includes is simple, be good to each other because it is in the objective best interest of the human race, and the planet in general.
Adam Mitchell
>Eternal Judges and Lawyers Truly Chinese hell is the worst.
Ayden Ortiz
>be good to each other The atztecs were more about stability of things then being good, also ingroup outgroup preferences concerning the good doing often restricted your idea of "one human race".
Luis Torres
i mean though that yes there is ethics in religion and ethics out of religion. but faith also brings in a unique subjective experience element (for some people atleast) which is beyond ethics.
Lincoln Cruz
I don't know anything about Aztec beliefs but we can at least say that over history it is clear that cooperation, through helping one another is the most productive model upon which to build a society, which was exactly how the abrahamic religions came about, to encourage people to work together and love one another for the benefit of everyone. Of course there are parts of religious doctrine which might seem to contradict this, it's because the texts were written by people and altered often by powerful figures, eg. the King James bible...
Joseph King
how did king hames bible get altered?
you can't excuse religious texts being abit rude on alterations. they just come from different cultural context of different norms etc. religion also lacks teleology. it is selectionist. it evolves without an end to it and so can always have inconsistencies left over from ancestry. (christianity specifically i guess).
im not sure if you can say religion is just about encouraging people to work together and be moral because im sure people are like this without religion in whatever context. i think the reasons for religion is deeper than that though obviously it helps.
Asher Watson
>who is being deceived
what if it's you
Justin Hernandez
still dont think thats technically a sin and not sure how much you can deceive yourself
Nolan Baker
can you write me a short poem? gonna be alone during thanksgiving tomorrow.
