So you have 2 opposing pike/halberd units approach one another.
Neither side backs down after a brief skirmish.
Then what?
I've heard that both sides would raise their pikes/halberds and charge into one another like a rugby scrum. One side would get pushed off and begin to run away. At which point the victorious side would lower their pikes/halberds and start mowing them down.
On the flipside neither side emerges victorious in the scrum...and you end up with people just drawing swords/daggers and it turns into a total shitshow.
Am I getting the picture right?
Two pike units charging at one another without armor or shields just seems like certain death for the front lines and therefore pointless
So they did really go balls to the wall and fucking lock horns and just slaughter each other?
Gnarly
But with the push...would they just charge into the opposite side with their spears lowered?
Asher Bell
Pikes powered yes.
There were multiple schools of thought on how to do it best though. The landsknecht soldiers would typically hold the pike at the but end and try to 'pike fence' for a while at a distance. The Swiss held the pike somewhat further down the shaft and just ran into the enemy.
An English writer recommends the latter tactic because it means everyone can use their pike rather than only the first one or two ranks. He literally says that they front rank should do a single thrust and then drop their pike and rush onto the enemy with swords followed by the next rank doing the same.
Noah Wright
Lowered*
Kevin Robinson
...
Matthew Mitchell
this is so interesting honestly
so during a push guys would just drop pikes and going into regular infantry mode?
were there certain types of small swords they used...or large daggers?
must have been so insane to witness or survive
James Foster
Perhaps one of the more visceral pictures here.
Logan Baker
>so during a push guys would just drop pikes and going into regular infantry mode?
More or less, though this was by no means the standard tactic.
During the early 16th century they used what is called a Katzbalger.
Generally the survival rate for soldiers was quite high except for the losing side and some extremely hard fought battles.
5-10% for the winning side is typical. On top of that the first two or three ranks were mostly well armored veterans that received double pay; Hence Doppelsoldner. Often shown in modern art as wielding large two handed swords they primarily used pikes and guns.
Ian Stewart
so frontline men had the best armor which makes sense
how do you think the zweihanders were deployed? within the ranks of the pike/halberd men?
i always thought they used their large two handed swords to knock away pike poles and disrupt the enemy formation. is this correct?
Ryan Reed
Well the cavalry is clearly wearing rubber armor. Judging by their charge I reckon they practice it at least a few times so kudos to them.
That said pistol armed cavalry was not really intended to charge into a pike block wielding pistols. Not ride around it taking fire from muskets. The wankers didn't even both to draw their swords...
Zweihanders seem to have been used more or less like guys with halberds were. Round the center protection the banner. As you can see in the text they were occasionally dispatched away. When both pike blocks had fallen apart enough and people grabbed their sword it was time for such weapons to really inflict some carnage/.
Justin Taylor
...
Daniel Hall
An English and if IIRC a french source mention halberds in the 5th rank too. In the English one they are mentioned as being placed there to stop cavalry that got past the pikes but I reckon they would be excellent to slaughter other pikemen too once the whole bunch became a bit more mingled like shown here
Jason Davis
the doppelsoldner in ranks 1-4 are guys with halberds/pikes but are just paid double due to the danger or their veteran skills?
is there specifically a line for guys with zweihanders? or are they just the occasional doppelsoldner?
I'm thinking about an age before gunpowder
Carter Hernandez
Pikes. Only the 5th rank would be guys with halberds.
Them being paid double was a mixture of being veteran and having armour. Back in the day it was very much a case of bring your own weapons and armour, those with more armour were thus paid a higher wage. The same goes for firearms which were quite expensive early on compared to a pike, these guys were paid double too until one or two decades into the 15th century when guns became more common.
In the formation shown in the only guys with those giant swords were posted along the banner.
before gunpowder would put us before 1340 at least and 1250 if you take the first mention of it. At that point pikes did not often face each other.
Aiden Rivera
>one or two decades into the 15th century
16th century*
James Phillips
so front lines guys with pikes and best armor then pikes with no armor few rows back guys with halberds and the double handed swords
then would it reverse back to the pikes
i guess what I'm trying to say is halberds and zweihanders in center of the formation...then your pikes out from there
so the formation could be attacked from any angle and stay strong?
Camden Bell
well the picture in states that halberds were deployed in the 5th rank before an unarmored pikemen but I suppose they mixed things up occasionally.
The reason for having pikes on the front was because they could wipe away opposing infantry while those are the side and rear had more to do with being protected from a cavalry attack. That said most armoured and veteran soldiers would be at the front so attacking other infantry usually happened with that side.
Anyways I am going, this thread seems a little deserted.
Carter Hill
>Zweihanders seem to have been used more or less like guys with halberds were. Round the center protection the banner. Here's a mid 16th century source on that matter, attributed to Erhard Schoen.
It says "Schlachtschwert un Helmparten" (War swords and halberds).
Mit den Schlachtschwerten halt wir drauff Ob wurdt geschlagen unnser hauff Und die Feindt wollten unns beschemen Einprechen und das Fenlein nemen Erst hawen wir mir freuden drein Das Fenlein wir beschutzen fein Weyl unser leib und leben werdt Umb Dopelsolt drag wir Schl achtschwert.
Her dret wir mit den Helmparten Und muessen auff das Fenlein warten Ob es der Feiyndt zu einer Seiten Wolt mit dem greyssing Zeug befreiten Den Schlach wir als die frumen Heldt Das Ross und man zu poden Feldt Die Kueriss wir in dapffer drennen Darumb wir unns Dopelsoldner nennen
Vague translation attempt; I couldn't really read all of it:
With the war swords we attack Even if our heap was beaten And the enemy wants to shame us Break in and take our little flag First we joyfully hew into them Protecting our little flag nicely For our body and life's well being For twice the pay (Dopelsolt) we carry the war sword
Here we come with our halberds And have to wait for our little flag See if the enemy comes from a flank To liberate it with his gruesome tools We will beat him as faithful heroes That horse and man falls to the ground The armour we will courageously ? That is why we call ourselves Doppelsoldner
Based on what I get from this, the two-handed swords were the shit hits the fan type weapon which was used when the formation broke and the enemy wanted to take the flag while the purpose of the halberd was to protect against enemy flanking manoeuvres - specifically mentioning cavalry and armour. Both the men carrying the two-handed swords as well as the halberdiers refer to themselves as Doppelsoldner in this text.
Cameron Howard
Then what? They fucking slaughter each other until/unless the pikes get interleaved, and then slaughter other with sidearms while the veterans move up with halberds to start splitting skulls.
>I've heard that both sides would raise their pikes/halberds and charge into one another like a rugby scrum No.
>Two pike units charging at one another without armor or shields just seems like certain death for the front lines and therefore pointless If you're in the front ranks, it is. front rank troops would often have armor. Shields don't matter. You can fence with a pike, and they did just that.
>would they just charge into the opposite side with their spears lowered? that or they'd walk to contact and fence with them. Both were fucking bloodbaths.
People had everything from axes and knives to katzblaggers and longswords.
Levi Ortiz
French Pike and Shot >Spanish Tercio Prove me wrong Pro tip: [spoiler]Rocroi[/spoiler]
There's literally nothing wrong with 4 pages long sentences with 30 appositions.
t. Hegel
Ryder Young
Strangely enough, I love reading Hegel.
Jeremiah Garcia
>Rocroi 1647 >Cerignola 1503 The french had time to develop something better than the tercios
Cooper Morgan
I heard during the English Revolutions that the common folk who were used as pike-men on both sides faked actually fighting each other, and just sat on the field looking at each other. Both sides hated who they were fighting for, so the didn't actually fight.
Dominic Flores
Not really actually. Or well maybe.
For much of the Italian war they continued to score an occasional victory against the Habsburg lads. By the time it ended France plunged into civil war and they missed out on what Maurice of Nassau did.
Anthony Thomas
remember that by roman times, the phalanx was already outdated they replaced it with that modular/mobile shit; which - i presume - is what was the inheritance of feudal pike lines
Liam Rogers
It's most definitely Early Modern German. Whether it's a High- or Low German dialect I can't tell. At least in this particular one they're called like that.
Nicholas Parker
What would be the literal translation to English?
Zachary Bell
It's funny when people think warfare was "less brutal" in past.
Jeremiah Martinez
It's a name for the weapon which has no literal translation. When it comes to the etymology it is uncertain. "Barte" is a historical term for axe. When it comes to the "helm" or "hell", people aren't too certain. Some derive it from literally helm, because the axe was meant to be hewn on helmets, some say it derives from "Halle" (hall) since the weapon was carried by princely guards in the halls of palaces, others claim it stems from "hell" (bright/shiny) because it was a shiny axe, and others say it derives from "hellen" which is supposedly an old term for "battling", which would make the halberd a battle axe.
