Why did the leaders of the Japanese empire embark on a war with objectives that were almost completely unattainable?

Why did the leaders of the Japanese empire embark on a war with objectives that were almost completely unattainable?
What about them or their culture made them think it was a good idea?

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America would have destroyed them for a certainty if they had waited any longer.

Pearl Harbor was their only chance, and they failed.

Why did the German empire embark on their almost-as-foolhardy enterprise?

The Japanese army was extremely ideological, had their heads up their asses, and the Emperor's ear. They had assassinated dissenters, Andhad a culture that rewarded slavish obedience and sycophants over reality.

The Navy was better, because the navy requires a certain level of education, training, and cosmopolitan travel. But boy howdy, you don't know the meaning of inter-service rivalry like they did. And the army had the Emperor's ear.

there needs to be a rule that you can only post ww2 threads for 1 day a month

Sauce is not a history book, but it's decently well written and I feel gives a impression of the cultural mentality which is hard to grasp for Westerners

at the moment of the declaration of war for a very short time the japanese army had equal naval and air strength to the US. they thought they would be able to make quick gains and a quick peace in which they could gain concessions, most notably the lifting of the embargo the US and other countries had placed on them that prevented them from getting oil and other needed supplies to fight the war in china, which they were stuck in after some bad decisions and which was the ultimate cause of all other aggressions

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they needed the money

no, it wasn't because they were mysterious orientals, there were clear strategic reasons why declaring war was a possible option for them at the time (see). it turned out to be a massive miscalculation but at the time it was not as unreasonable as it looks in hindsight

americans like to believe the japanese attacked them out of the blue because they are crazy but there was a long pre-history leading up to the declaration of war

by the way pearl harbor wasn't even meant as a surprise attack. the japanese sent a declaration of war shortly ahead but the message got stuck in some american diplomatic office and the attack occured before it reached the government

that's the one at yasukuni shrine, right?
that would certainly explain it

It was transmitted encrypted. It took them too long to decrypt it at the embassy in DC.

/thread

>Why did the leaders of the Japanese empire embark on a war with objectives that were almost completely unattainable?

They weren't though.

> open talk in IJA about inevitable war and showdown with USA
> responded to with embargo
user, I....

Going by how well they worked out for the ones who thought they were possible...

You're a retard. At least spend 5 minutes browsing Wikipedia summaries before spewing mouthshit about a topic. Thanks!

Please explain how the Empire of Nippon had any hope of winning a war with the US, let alone the allies.

You ass-blasted weeb.

They didn't set out to war with unattainable war goals. In truth the only war goal they had was the lifting of the embargo, which they figured they could get if they took the Philippines and defeated the American navy in a series of Decisive Battles. Unfortunately, Japan LOST the decisive battles of Coral Sea and Midway and that was that. It was always a gamble and everyone knew it but if you look at the IJN's record up to that time it wouldn't have been a bad gamble. The IJN 1940-42 was hand down the best Navy on the planet. After Midway it was toast because the losses it took were too important and too difficult to make up for even if they'd had another 5 peacetime years to do it.

The real tragedy is that the war almost never happened but Japan sent military envoys that couldn't speak english well to meet with a racist deputy secretary of state that didn't think Japan was worth his time. The decision to launch Pearl Harbor came down to a mistranslation that the Japanese party didn't know how to clarify and the American party didn't bother to try.

>The real tragedy is that the war almost never happened but Japan sent military envoys that couldn't speak english well to meet with a racist deputy secretary of state that didn't think Japan was worth his time.

Pretty sure Nippon stronk and hyper aggressiveness became a thing post-WW1 when western delegates in the peace conferences (mostly Australians) didn't want to treat Japan as equal to white powers.

But can we really blame australia for not wanting to treat the japs as equals

>encrypting a declaration of war against another country

literally wut senpai?
Do you realize how retarded that sounds?

What happens if your enemies to be happen to be listening in on transmissions to your embassy and know what instructions your diplomats are being sent?

Of course it was encrypted, you mong.

Autism

a declaration of war, if they wanted to be open about it, was not something they needed to keep secret. The US, for example, announced it on television for fuck's sake. Your enemies are literally the ones you're sending your message to.

Europe was in the middle of a war so they figured they could get a way with it.
Google World War 2, shit's cray.

Pretty cool to be honest man

You don't want them to read it before you are ready, you nincompoop. If they did, they might radio pearl harbor and inform them to maybe expect an attack or something.

then it's not an official declaration of war you fucking mong, it's a sneak attack, which is how history rightfully remembers it.

NIPPON STRONK

This is correct.

They intended to give it right as the planes arrived. That's why being a little late decrypting ruined everything.

That's still a sneak attack. It's like putting a sword to someone's neck and saying "let's have a duel!"

no, its like swinging a sword at somebodies neck whilst saying "lets have a duel"

It's interesting how cultural misunderstandings can help push along really bad decisions. Makes me think that those weirdos in anthropology aren't so worthless after all.

you have to understand shintoism and bushido to understand why the Japanese did what they did.

t. Anthropologist

>unattainable

Same reason a bunch of Oregon commies think they can bring down every single nation state on the globe in their lifetime and morph it all into a proletarian dictatorship.

That is both simultaneously and unbelievably ugly and extremely aesthetic map

>give t*rks northern syria and northern iraq

This makes the t*rk happy.

What book is this?

IR student, actually. We're almost as useless.

is it even remotely conceivable that any government could actually control that much territory all over the world? let alone one as ridiculous as imperial japan

The same thing that made them think kamikaze attacks would have sense: Bullshitdo

They cant even control whole of the philippines island at that time

It did. The Japanese were willing to withdraw from China entirely but they weren't willing to give up Manchuko. The Americans didn't actually count Manchuko as part of China in the deal the Japanese government agreed to, but the DSoS didn't bother to clarify that point when he was telling them to GTFO out of China. Because the delegation couldn't resolve the issue the kido butai was sent out to do Pearl Harbor. PH was always a last resort option because the Japanese knew that winning it was a huge gamble that could lose them everything and it did.

It worked for the Vietnamese though. iirc, The Tet Offensive was a military failure but it scared the public enough for the US to withdraw.

The situations aren't comparable. Tet came at a time when public support was already wavering and there was a tiny bit of sympathy for the communists, Peal Harbour was perceived as a totally unprovoked act of aggression that demanded a strong response.

>Why did the German empire embark on their almost-as-foolhardy enterprise?
It was nowhere near as foolhardy though. France fell, Europe was under their control and for the first year or so the invasion of the Soviet Union went pretty well. The only things that went wrong with the Germans were:
>America Lend-Leasing their enemies
>Atrocious leadership decisions during both the Battle of Britain and the Invasion of the Soviet Union (both were winnable actually, and even the Battle of France ended favorably because Mannstein ignored orders from Berlin and kept pushing on)
>America directly entering the war (blame Japan)
Japan's and Germany's situations weren't comparable.

>The Navy was better, because the navy requires a certain level of education, training, and cosmopolitan travel. But boy howdy, you don't know the meaning of inter-service rivalry like they did. And the army had the Emperor's ear.
Wasn't the army more interested in a land war with Russia, or am I mistaken here? I genuinely wish to know. And Pearl Harbor was obviously the navy's job, right? Did the Emperor really take naval advice from the army rather than the navy?

The Army wanted to fight everyone. The Navy mostly wanted to smash the British and the Dutch, which they did. After that they knew they needed to consolidate but Tokyo had virtually no control over army operations overseas because generals would do whatever they felt like.

Not the guy you're responding to but:

>Battle of Britain
>Winnable for the Germans.

Don't be ridiculous.

Because they believed in some Buddhist shit and wanted to destroy Christianity and convert the World to Buddhism in the name of Maitreya.

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Wrong war.

basically, yes. And when the army has convinced your literal god to order an attack on the US, how do you inform him that this is literally mouth-breathing retardation?

Oh, and the army had competing schools of thought on where to go. South vs North.

They scrapped briefly with the gommies before deciding south.

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>by the way pearl harbor wasn't even meant as a surprise attack. the japanese sent a declaration of war shortly ahead but the message got stuck in some american diplomatic office and the attack occured before it reached the government

You do realize that's not true, right?

>Japanese """""""""history"""""""" museums

[Multiple Citations from Credible Sources Needed]

very interesting. still, i dont think the problem was buddhism, nor even zen. if you took seriously the boddhisatva vow you would never do any of that shit. and if you took "emptiness" seriously the state/emperor would be a mere delusion.

if you argue that buddhism is fundamentally corrupt because of this, then you would have to argue the same for christianity with its crusades. i think the problem in both cases were deliberate misinterpretations to justify the exact opposite of the true teachings. why these misinterpretations arise, and why they garner such universal support at certain historical junctures, however, is the real qustion.

>Why did the German empire embark on their almost-as-foolhardy enterprise?
Because from their point of view it didn't look that bad. The German military were under the impression that the same war that was WW1 could be won if only the tactical potential was further maximised. It should be considered that they were looking at it from a different perspective than we are now. Russia is nowadays known for huge industrial output and Zergrush during WW2, but they were looking at Russia from a WW1 perspective where they performed rather poorly and where significant military victories were achieved by the German side. France was seen as the real threat on the continent.

>Nanking
M8y there are a billion other worse things the Japs and Americans did. That you focus on that shows you have no place on a history board.

Japan - borderland of China. Japanese expansion was welcomed by most of continental Chinese and could unite Chinese states under normal government and common language. Red China is shit compared with possible Far East Empire.

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cute nails desu

>The Navy was better, because the navy requires a certain level of education, training, and cosmopolitan travel. But boy howdy, you don't know the meaning of inter-service rivalry like they did. And the army had the Emperor's ear.
The Navy was just as ideological, wanted a war with the US, and had the Emperor's ear (which was how they got their war). They were the ones responsible for starting a war with the US, while the Army wanted a war with the USSR.

*Muffled Mongolian throat singing*

Why didn't they try an amphibious invasion of Hawaii?
Wouldn't that truly cripple the US navy?

If it succeeded, sure.

But Hawaii had about a division of U.S. troops on it, and trying to mount an amphibious invasion when your nearest base is about 4,000 km away is really, really hard.

>Why didn't they try an amphibious invasion of Hawaii?
Because it was impossible with the means they had at their disposal?

>Wouldn't that truly cripple the US navy?
Yes, but so would a successful invasion of CONUS and that was also impossible.

There's a get coming....

Two army divisions plus two marine defense battalions plus thousands of navy personnel. Also plenty of coastal artillery and the guns from a couple of the battleships still work.

>Why didn't they try an amphibious invasion of Hawaii?

Because it was impossible with what they had at their disposal. You might as well ask why they didn't try to invade California.

I thought it wasn't reinforced to that extent until 1942, after the Pearl Harbor attack.

Could easily be wrong though, this is hardly my area of expertise.

To make a sweeping oversimplifiation

>make war with china increase territory and foreign influence
>goes well enough, but resources are falling thin
>no iron or oil to be found between a volcanic island and an active war zone, have to branch out for resources to keep the war with China going
>Indochina, East Indies, and Burma make fine easy targets for metal and oil
>US based in the Philippines, any move in SouthEast Asia certainly means war with the US
>devise plan to remove the US Pacific Fleet for as long as possible
>only cripples the US fleet, still leaves an opening for a quick capture of SouthEast Asia so the war can go on
>Japan's able to wage war for a few more years with the new resources
>collapses within the year after their supply lines are severed by advancing allies.

>Ideological

No it's not
Japan already invaded china even before WW2 happen
They expanded their shit because 2 things

>Natural resources
>Strategical Defense

They invaded SEA because the natural resources in SEA (Indonesia, Malaysia, Burma, etc) because they need more for war towarded US and embargo (Just like Nazi invaded Norway)

and they invaded pacific because strategical defense
Japs thinked america will help aussie (son of britain) to help crush japan with US supplies. Also thinked that it will be a good way to hold america because Jap's navy was superior than US at that time
too bad, jap lost at midway

>The Navy was just as ideological, wanted a war with the US
I'm not super well versed in this, but didn't Yamato not really want war?
A "quick" war with the US with Japan winning early battles then getting a quick yet favorable surrender (with conditions being the US drop sanctions) was the only favorable way that would ever turn out, and Yamato knew it. The reason he chose pearl harbor when he was given to order to start a war was that he hoped the attack would be far more effective than it was, and with a large amount of the american navy damaged/sunk, Japan could cinch the rest of the early war before the US fully mobilized and crushed them. He underestimated the effectiveness of the attack and the anger of the American people however (part of this was because pearl harbor was considered a sneak attack because the embassy fucked up and got the declaration of war there late) and the plan ultimately backfired.

大和?

I'm a fucking retard user, sorry, I meant Yamamoto

That's from the museum at Yasukuni Shrine.

Based on my own readings, I have come to this pic-related conclusion as well.

FDR was indeed plotting to go to War well before it even began. All the evidence points to it. Furthermore, the suspicious circumstances surrounding Pearl Harbour are too big to ignore. USN scattered their Navy a few days before the attack, for seemingly no reason. Furthermore, the Japanese code had already been broken, but the machines needed to translate them were not given to the Pearl Harbor base. Despite it being the largest in the Pacific. The Japanese even felt something was off so they even cancelled the second wave. And then the DooLittle operation was so bizarrely planned, that it would be foolish to think that it wasn't pre-planned.

The Mexican-American War started on similar pretenses, with US doing their best to goad them into attacking as much as possible. The history books have admitted to as such, and given a few more decades the same truth will probably come out about Pearl Harbor.

>USN scattered their Navy a few days before the attack,
Actually no such thing happened. The Lexington and the Enterprise were out of Pearl Harbor, but the rest of the PacFleet wasn't.

>for seemingly no reason.
Except Lexington and Enterprise were ferrying aircraft to Wake and Midway to protect against possible Japanese attack.

>the Japanese code had already been broken
The very fact that you think there is one "Japanese code" tells me you know exactly jack shit about WW2 history and military history in general.

>The Japanese even felt something was off so they even cancelled the second wave
Actually the second wave was not cancelled. It followed the first wave by about 20 minutes.

>And then the DooLittle operation was so bizarrely planned, that it would be foolish to think that it wasn't pre-planned.
No one thinks the Doolittle Raid wasn't planned.

You are an imbecile, holy shit. Please stop posting your "conclusions."

FDR was expecting a war. He was not expecting an attack on Pearl Harbor. FDR and his officials were expecting an attack on the Philippines, which is why they didn't bother to build up its defenses properly. When the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor reached Washington, Secretary Knox shouted "Impossible! You must mean the Philippines!"

It's not really fair to say that he was "plotting" a war, he recognized that Japan's circumstances meant that they were likely to declare war on the US and planned accordingly.

*And by "expecting", I certainly don't mean that he knew the day it would happen. Just that it was probably going to happen at some point.

>FDR and his officials were expecting an attack on the Philippines, which is why they didn't bother to build up its defenses properly.
Part of it is that the naval treaties prohibited building up defenses. In 1940 or so the US decided it would actually take the task of defending Philippines seriously and ship over 100s of B17 bombers and fighters over, but the plan did not materialize before Japs attacked.

>The Lexington and the Enterprise were out of Pearl Harbor, but the rest of the PacFleet wasn't.

They pulled the carriers our with no explanation or notice whatsoever in the dead of the night. Later on they gave some excuse about 'weather', even though footage show it was a clear day on Pearl Harbor, so it could go into the footnotes of some history books.

Nice to see you also ignored the most important part which was the purposeful exclusion of code-breaking devices on Pearl Harbor that were present on several other bases. There is no explanation for that whatsoever.

And they had broken the most important cipher used by the Navy. You don't know what you are talking about in the slightest.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_(cipher_machine)

The intention of America to force Japan into attacking them is primarily what I am getting at. It was well planned out strategy to get Japan to attack them ahead of time. Defenses were sufficiently lacking in all the Pacific bases, including the Philippines.

>Just that it was probably going to happen at some point.

I am also willing to bet that a closed circle had high enough reason to believe that the attack was going to occur against Pearl Harbor, but chose to let it happen to drum up the strongest motivation for declaring War.

>They pulled the carriers our with no explanation or notice whatsoever in the dead of the night. Later on they gave some excuse about 'weather', even though footage show it was a clear day on Pearl Harbor, so it could go into the footnotes of some history books.

Are you retarded? The carriers were delivering planes to the defenses of Wake and Midway Islands, and had been out of Pearl for some days, on a mission that was hardly secretive to the USN and was pretty straightforward, because they were again assuming that the Japanese were going to attack closer targets.

Not even any of the guys you're responding to, but this is common knowledge.

Without an escort during a time of high tension in the Pacific? Unlikely. It screams Gulf of Tonkin.

>I am also willing to bet that a closed circle had high enough reason to believe that the attack was going to occur against Pearl Harbor, but chose to let it happen to drum up the strongest motivation for declaring War.

So you think the US government deliberately lined up nearly all of its battleships in a neat row with no real protection......why, exactly? To give the Japanese a head start? Make the war more interesting?