I am quite done with holocaust deniers. All the proof they give is based on nothing more than just mere suggestion " how can they burn so much bodies a day?", "you see this graph, it says how much jews there were even though I cherrypicked something that clearly was based on old info from before the war", "why do you believe the zionist media? It's all lies you know."
Can Veeky Forums just give me a good book that btfo all pseudo-intellectuals on Veeky Forums. I normally as a historian just go with the most common explanation, not really wishing to nitpick small details since the writer probably knows more about it than me. It is a waste of my time to know every single detail of every single historical happening. But apparently world war II is different, apparently I need to be an expert on ovens to be allowed to argue it. Please make me one.
>I normally as a historian just go with the most common explanation >as a historian >go with the most common explanation
If you're a historian go do research
Nicholas Clark
Breddy good. Thank you for that.
Owen Perry
Nope, the fact is that as a historian you research parts of the history that you wish to know more about. You have to sometimes just accept the facts of some things that happened, either 1. because there is not enough to go on (like for ex. the Peloponnese war) 2. because it requires expert knowledge (archaeology, knowledge about geography, cultural backgrounds etc.) The thing is it is not possible to know every single detail of every single thing that has ever happened. There is no revisionism as to the existence of the Peloponnese war even though the evidence for it is shabby at best.
I have never really made much effort to know about parts of history that I mostly do not research, instead focusing on those parts which I do know a lot about. Mostly this is an accepted excuse, after all, I should know that Kievan Rus existed, but nobody will ask of me to research in detail what the Rurikovich dynasty was etc. unless that is my field of expertise.
The rules of this game are however different for the holocaust, apparently I am told that I am fucking stupid if I do not know every single little detail about it. And that I should do my own research even if the things discussed are beyond my scope of knowledge, I do not know the workings of cyclon b, I do not know the processes of an oven and how fast it works. All I do is try to tie that which we know together with the story of history that happened and sometimes even with that which is about to happen.
Until this moment I just accepted the common theory, and I still do as most deniers just base themselves fully on suggestion, all historical theories based on suggestion and not hard data can be dismissed quite easily. However sometimes what they say is very pseudo-factual, like the oft repeated "Auswitch was not a dead camp" , well yeah, tomayto tomatoh, I have been there, there is a camp birkenau right around the corner that was, his only problem seems to be the name.
Kayden Gonzalez
They have a point, Occam's razor is how we logically deduce things. Even leaving asides all the incontrovertible proof, what makes more sense? That the United States, United Kingdom, France, USSR, a host of minor powers, independent observers from around the world, huge amounts of film footage, photos, internal documents, missing Jews who can't be accounted for, the concentration camps themselves, the statement of Nazi leaders, Nazi policy, and most obviously survivors of the holocaust are all faked or are lying, or that they're true and that there wasn't a global conspiracy to produce a fake holocaust? Logically, it is far more simple that it actually did happen, and hence under Occam's razor we should choose the simpler option, that it did happen. This is further magnified once we get into the evidence which shows it as actually happening. Of course, none of this will work on holocaust deniers. Their motivations are anti-semitism and edginess, and they delight in the fact that they believe that they're "oppressed by society", and hence like to think about themselves as valiant crusaders for truth and freedom against the international Jewish conspiracy which is trying to keep the truth away, instead of an entirely irrelevant group of lonely people on the internet passing around poorly constructed info graphics and means text. Any well researched information against this will be immediately called out for being a product of (((academia))), and opponents mocked and derided as being JIDF members/Communists from Reddit/SJWs. Now, is that to say that their denial of the holocaust shouldn't be allowed? No, they're free to do. I'm personally against holocaust denial laws. But the rest of us are free to ignore them.
Jason Davis
This is the point - it doesn't matter what you say to them. Better to just ignore them and hope they grow out of it.
Jose Reed
Currywurst ist mein Lieblingsessen. Lecker!
Oliver Fisher
>Can Veeky Forums just give me a good book that btfo all pseudo-intellectuals on Veeky Forums.
You can't. Its why people still believe the earth is flat, moon landings were a hoax, 9/11 was an inside job etc. You can't convince someone who has made up their mind to the point not even reality will get through to them anymore - psychologically called cognitive dissonance.
Thomas Hughes
>Better to just ignore them and hope they grow out of it. Easy for you to say when these denialist theories are central parts of the justifications rightist extremists use to justify violence against Jews and other members of society.
People literally get murdered over this nonsense.
Charles Brooks
>I am quite done with holocaust deniers
Oliver Sanchez
That's not quite true. Cognitive dissonance isn't when the subject is unable to grasp reality. Cognitive dissonance is an observation that when a subject is engaged in hypocritical behavior, that they believe (or at least profess to believe) A but wind up doing B instead, the belief tends to shift to the action far more often than the other way around.
Jack Flores
>two random charts of whatever origin devoid of any context >the mystery of the holocaust, solved once and for all!
Benjamin Mitchell
>under Occam's razor we should choose the simpler option not saying the holocaust did happen but that is not how occam's razor works
Austin Cook
>court trials and documents point to only 200k dead >one random unverified census >6 million Jews dead >the mystery of the holocaust, solved once and for all!
This. I started questioning the existence of George Washington in holocaust-threads but the irony went over /pol/s head and I was told "lol they are books about him so he existed". >court trials and documents point to only 200k dead Source. >one random unverified census Source. The 6 million number is an estimation based on hundreds of document from all over Europe. Your census doesn't matter. >the mystery of the holocaust, solved once and for all Have you been to a library before? Try reading a book written by a historian about the holocaust and you will see things are more complicated despite what /pol/ is telling you.
John Ward
>I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total of about 3,000,000 dead. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries. Included among the executed and burnt were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of Prisoner of War cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great numbers of citizens (mostly Jewish) from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944. But I guess he was bragging.
Jonathan White
anons example still holds. "The principle can be interpreted as stating: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected".
Josiah Brooks
>what are sources
Josiah Collins
Yes, it actually is. Not that I think it's really applicable on history tho.
Owen Nelson
Unfortunately, when dealing with the holocaust denier crowd, Nizkor and similar groups like Yad Vashem are completely worthless. Da joooz be lyin, ya know?
Julian Smith
Rudolf hoess was tortured desu
James Hall
Memes aside. What does the demographic data state about how many Jews existed at the beginning of the war, and the end of it?
Christian Cruz
No, he wasn't.
Juan Stewart
According to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, you have an estimated decline of somewhere between 5.7-6.8 million, uncertainty mainly owing to not knowing how many Jews died in the USSR, where they couldn't get very good data.
They had listed a pre-war population of about 10 million, and a post-war population of about 3.3 million (but not all were dead, there were some refugees) in the final analysis, but again, that wasn't intended to be definitive.
Also, you should note that they used a somewhat different (and more restrictive) definition of Jew than the Nazis themselves did.
Eli Ward
Are you asking for an international census covering the 3rd Reich, the Soviets and later post-war Europe crossing the Iron Curtain? No, there isn't. An important source for those numbers are internal Nazi statistics or sometimes what was published in the newspaper(one paper claimed that in Poland and Hungary alone 5 Millions were killed). Things get complicated when the Nazis were just shooting people without bureaucracy (Babyn Jar).
Jaxon Richardson
So...what? All those stormnigger websites are just making stuff up?
Julian Butler
>Now, is that to say that their denial of the holocaust shouldn't be allowed? No, they're free to do. I'm personally against holocaust denial laws. But the rest of us are free to ignore them.
The real trouble is that we're living in the meme age where these sorts of misinformation and half-truths are constantly spread around the world. Banning it can be counter-intuitive since this sort of propaganda thrives on being anti-establishment to begin with, but like with telling parents to just say no to kids while pumping them full of targeted ads for toys and junk food that make them fat and stupid, there's not much that can be done to curb its spread into populations that are primed and undisciplined for it.
Julian Phillips
pig related
Those are highly deflated numbers, considering we had 12.6M by 1970s.
>Europe (including Asiatic USSR and Turkey) 4,030,950
Gabriel Young
sry, didn't realized you were talking about the European Jews.
Dominic Clark
Occam's razor would say disease and starvation rampaged through german territory killing most of the enormous prison population. Even the most rabid neo-nazi doesn't deny people dying, they deny what is contended to be a large scale systematic genocide.
Landon Davis
>Occam's razor would say disease and starvation rampaged through german territory killing most of the enormous prison population. Only in a tabula rasa situation but we are in a situation with tons of documentaries, books, archives and testimonies telling us the holocaust did happen. It's very un-Occam's razor to claim to are elaborated Zionist lies.
Bentley Davis
Oh, sorry, I should have been clearer.
Benjamin Cooper
Occam's razor would not say that unless you ignore a lot of the evidence, such as the millions of French, Belgian, British, and a few American internees in the same prison system who did NOT die of starvation. In fact, it was only really the untermenschen like Slavs and Jews who died by the millions.
Kevin Russell
Even, if we acknowledge this nonsense, If you imprison an innocent man (or worse a child) and he dies in your captivity due to your bad managment, it is equal to murder or in this particular case even bigger sin than murder.
Jace Green
Even if he was, why didn't he recant? The most monstrous crime is being pinned on him. Why didn't he tell the truth in his autobiography? Why didn't he spend the rest of his days screaming out "They made me confess! It's all a lie! I'm innocent!". He stuck with it even as he was being led to the gallows and the noose placed around his neck.
Adam White
Yepp.
Jack Hall
There is a subtle difference between genocide and indifference to death. I'm fairly certain you can find it.
They weren't in the same prison system, at all. Very few western POWs were sent to the death camps. Although you are right about the massive deaths of slavs. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make aside from stating the obvious.
I think history is replete with examples of the losing side being painted as barbaric monsters who deserved everything they got and then some. Do you not find it strange that the war crimes of Japan and Germany are taught at a very young age while the war crimes of the soviet union are completely ignored if mentioned at all? I've read countless testimonies and books on the subject and met a handful of survivors who told their stories. Some told genuine tales of suffering and death which is logical considering the circumstances. Others told fanciful tales of nazis forcing jews to wash themselves with soap made of their dead children. Not a single person I met that was in a death camp told stories of genocide. I think there is an enormous amount of misinformation surrounding this event and it at the very least warrants a closer examination but for some reason it's considered a crime to even talk about it.
Gabriel Davis
>There is a subtle difference between genocide and indifference to death. I'm fairly certain you can find it.
>Lets shove millions of Jews into concentration camps for some weird reason >What? That we can't support them? Then let those damn kekes die by millions.
>Let's shove millions of Jews into concentration camps for some weird reason >What? We are fighting a total war and when we win we'll be those who set morals? Then turn on the gas and let those damn kekes die by millions.
The difference I see is that in the first case the murdered had to suffer more.
Kayden Nguyen
They were in camps that were connected to thesame supply lines and support network as the concentration camp is what he means.
Why was one set of camps spared while the other was ravaged?
Cameron White
A lot of this stuff is copied and pasted from Nizkor and some other sites. Just scroll to any paragraph that isn't an opinion or whatever and copy and paste it into google. You will find the same paragraph on some other sites. It's cute that he compiled all this shit and all but it doesn't mean anything.
Nathaniel Hill
>Do you not find it strange that the war crimes of Japan and Germany are taught at a very young age while the war crimes of the soviet union are completely ignored if mentioned at all? Well I don't know what country you are living in but your statement is wrong regarding Germany. >Not a single person I met that was in a death camp told stories of genocide. How could a single person tell such a story? The holocaust happened in a lot of places to a lot of persons. A subjective observer outside the bureaucracy would simple not be able to grasp what was happening. Witnesses telling their story for the 50th time 60 years after the event are not the best source. This is why we have historians working in archives. I should know since I do both (interviews and research in archives). > I think there is an enormous amount of misinformation surrounding this event Yes, most of it floating on the stormfront-side like the notion that the official narrative is "6 millions we killed in death camps". > it's considered a crime to even talk about it. It's not though. Not on a single country on this planet. In fact holocaust research is one of the best funded project in historical science a fact that contradicts the idea of a single inflexible and made-up narrative. >inb4 Germany Read the law.
William Davis
First of all
>"Jews"
they're not.
Second of al
>"denial"
Problem with that statement is that these people raise the number of dead from 6 to some other insane figure only a couple decares after. Making it REALLY hard to believe them.
Tyler Ramirez
I wish the same amount of (justified) source criticism would be applied to shitty /pol/-macros.
Dylan Sanchez
I got a lot of people here telling me you are not a an uneducated stormfronter. Problem is they also tell me that you read more than 6 books in your lifetimes. Making it REALLY hard to believe the,
Jason Moore
>Occam's razor is how we logically deduce things. Because you're fucking reductionist retards.
It's almost like the study of history isn't set inn stone and new discoveries and information can be discovered that changes our understanding.
Nathaniel King
>Geoffrey Megargee Always the same single study. Always. Also look at how it was received by historians and experts on that field whose research Megargee largely ignored. jstor.org/stable/43819674?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Easton Edwards
>understanding lies aren't understanding
Jackson Baker
>muh positivism
Juan Stewart
>it's a lie because it hurts my feefees
Josiah Nguyen
>a dude doing shitty research is lying >a dude doing shitty research and getting BTFOd by his colleagues for it means they are all liars
Benjamin Davis
You are the positivist, actually. Literally all empiricism is, is fee fees, you ideologue. All empiricists are liars, yes.
Carson Brown
>literally "no, you": The Post
Gabriel Kelly
You now missed the moment when you could have pretended to know what you are talking about. And I am not a positivist by any means but keep telling yourself you understand what is happening while not backing up any claim by evidence or presenting any form of coherent argument.
Thomas King
>evidence is good becuz i sed so yeah you totally aren't a positivist. >arguments are good cuz i sed so yeah not a positivist
Joshua Jenkins
>They were in camps that were connected to the same supply lines and support network as the concentration camp is what he means.
That's wrong though, especially in regards to the french.
>Well I don't know what country you are living in but your statement is wrong
I've been in schools all over the US. They downplay Stalin by quite a bit and in some states it's completely ignored. The only constant is Japan and Germany.
>How could a single person tell such a story?
I don't expect a single person to tell me of the grandiose schemes of hitler. What I did expect was tales of friends and family being taken away and never being seen again. I didn't get that, what I got was a lot of suffering and brutal mistreatment in camps. Keeping people alive is contradictory to genocide, period.
> it's considered a crime to even talk about it. If you mention that you think the holocaust didn't happen to anyone ever in this country it will torch your career. I suppose I should have said it's practically a crime but in essence you face ostracism just for asking questions. Telling someone you think the holocaust might not have happened is equivalent to saying you like having sex with children.
I'm not saying the holocaust didn't happen, I'm not even saying it didn't happen exactly as we're taught it did. All I'm saying is there is a lot of contradictory information.
Xavier Morris
agreed
>stormweens actually believe that Jews played football with the guards and had a nice hot relaxing bath at the end of the day after long tiring hours of horse grooming and gardening
Andrew Long
>x is y because of muh feels
Joseph Anderson
No, that's you.
Evan Reyes
Occam's razor is when you don't assume something is true if there is no evidence for it.
I think the misinterpretation stems from the fact that you use Occam's razor to shave away things that do not influence an outcome in a scientific experiment. Hence the "simpler" explanation. The simplicity is not the goal, it is just a consequence of narrowing things down.
Also I meant "not saying the holocaust didn't happen".
Jaxon Thomas
They seem to shut up when you point put that most modern prisons have parking lots on site and ask them what kind of cars the prisoners are out driving around.
Cooper Long
If that's not garlic mayo get that shit out of my way.
Kevin Ward
>evidence is good cuz i sed so becuz muh archaic ideology
Ian Bennett
>I've been in schools all over the US. They downplay Stalin by quite a bit and in some states it's completely ignored. The only constant is Japan and Germany. Well you should get engaged on your education board then. But your subjective experience doesn't proof anything about the past only that you education wasn't the best. >What I did expect was tales of friends and family being taken away and never being seen again. I didn't get that, what I got was a lot of suffering and brutal mistreatment in camps. Keeping people alive is contradictory to genocide, period. You can watch Claude Lanzmans Shoah or take into account that people usually don't like to talk about traumatic stuff. For starters. >if you mention that you think the holocaust didn't happen to anyone ever in this country it will torch your career. >just for asking questions Asking questions and saying the holocaust didn't happen is not the same thing. Also of course it torches your career in history. It's one of the best documented and researched events in history. Denying it happens is like saying the stars are eyes of the gods and wondering what happened to your career in astrophysics. Also as far as I understand it Breitbart offered a plattform for exactly this kind of bullshit and I can't see his career being torched. >inb4 Ernst Nolte Nobody denied his data and observations just the conclusions he drew and since he went full Nazi in his later life it seems people were right.
Ethan Hall
No you.
Eli Smith
A fiercly debated subject that no one has an answer for.
Yet it is taught to young children all over the world as gospel truth.
And all the jews on this board can only shout "stormweenie!" to those who question their dogmatic beliefs they like to force onto gentile children.
Ian Gutierrez
>A fiercly debated subject that no one has an answer for. No, there is a very strong scientific consensus. Only stormfronters debate it. >And all the jews on this board can only shout "stormweenie!" to those who question their dogmatic beliefs they like to force onto gentile children. Quelle surprise you are a nazi ;-)
Samuel Butler
I wish I could brainwash 5 generations of jewish children into feeling guilt over being jewish and debating against a white man about their ancestors past actions.
I could shut down his whole argument by simply saying "You are a Jew ;-)"
How about you greentext the meme-videos? I find it fun debunking this shit, but I am too lazy to watch it.
Gabriel Long
Tell me why the only proof provided comes from (((Hollywood))). The events as popularly depicted amount to an insidious alms bowl.
Bentley Turner
Can we all just agree that, regardless of whether it actually happened, the Holocaust is irrelevant today?
Brayden Cook
>Tell me why the only proof provided comes from (((Hollywood))). Because the only proof stormretards accept is video proof, which is why the only sources they have are conspiracy videos on Youtube.
david cole believes in judaism, so, one of their exposed it.
Sebastian Richardson
Jimmy Jome had a little lamb The lamb ate rainbow colored petals and died from diarrhea You should have seen Jimmy's garden it was full of shit
Jaxon Barnes
Oh look its another holocaust debate thread.
Isaac Lee
>le science Science is a dogma, it should be destroyed not taught to children.
Camden Walker
daily reminder that the only hard evidence for the holocaust amounts to only 300-500k deaths.
Blake Wood
That's quite a lot.
How much deaths would support hard evidence of WW2 in general?
Hudson Ramirez
How are you defining "hard evidence"?
Cooper Thompson
Not him.
Autopsies were done on bodies to determine the presence of gas as the cause of death, they found none. They found typhus to be the main cause.
Xavier Clark
There are official records of tens of millions dying in WW2. There are hardly any for the holocaust.
>b-but muh census It would make perfect sense for Jews to lie on the census during a time when they were persecuted. Even today, with superior data processing technology, the USA cannot measure the number of illegal immigrants in the country.
Easton Edwards
Official records are not "hard evidence"
Matthew Anderson
Military records are absolutely hard evidence. The logistics of supplying your men requires knowing how many men you have.
Charles Jackson
Why would Jews lie due to persecution when there was apparently no persecution?
Hudson Smith
You lack reading comprehension.
John Price
Weird, many times I´ve heard from esteemed gentlemen of nationalist social orientation that Soviets lied a lot about the record of their military dead.
Are you implying these fine young men are liars?
Benjamin Richardson
>Canned replies not matching the posts replied to
Are you a bot? Or merely autistic?
Brody White
There is no evidence of this and no motive, they are liars.
Liam Ramirez
The holocaust provided them with a quick buck afterwards, anyone can fake a tattoo and a horror story for a book deal or an interview fee. This was a common issue, even Yad Vashem admitted a majority of the holocaust reports were made up. I don't understand why people can't make the realization that the holocaust business is extremely profitable, and where profit can be made opportunists exist. In Hollywood there have been numerous holocaust movies made worth hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue. I guess its just a real tough pill to swallow, not only that something you religiously believed and revered was distorted and lied about, but that it was tied to your morality and political beliefs as well.
Aaron Smith
And how do you prove that you are not an agent from JIDF?
I find it hard to believe that such virile and honorable men, such as national socialists are, would insult their very lips with uttering a lie.
Cameron Sanchez
But it took years for the "holocaust industry" to take off. Why would they lie so soon after the war, when there was not yet anything in it for them?
Kevin Diaz
If you follow the reply chain you will see that I said that the 6 million figure is seriously inflated and is grounded in fantasy.
Brayden Wright
Fuck this looks delicious, what type of food is that?
Adrian Harris
Lets not forget the Holocaust Porn that was a big hit in Israel in the 50's and 60's.
Why do you believe things are true even without evidence?
Most people only believe in things with evidence, at least in principle if not in practice. I have not heard of an ideology that openly admits to believing in things despite a lack of evidence.
