What's the Veeky Forums consensus on Mao?

Great general, awful politician.

Dude birds are annoying let's kill them all
Dude let's destroy all of our culture
Dude give me all your rice and grain

What the fuck was his problem

I want to know what happened to his children with He Zhizhen from the Long March. It's a shame that they're probably in their 70s or 80s and never got to meet their dad.

Had some terrific ideas and some fucking retarded holy-shit-what-is-this ones. He understood what China had to become to challenge the West and be independent, but he had no idea how to actually do it.

>endlessly retreating and then picking apart the Nationalist Army which was severely weakened from 6 years of fighting the Japanese
Really makes you think

>Culture? Free speech? Freedom of expression? Personal liberty?
>No, only labor camps and disappearings.
>Gee, Comrade Mao, you're doing a great job!

>DUDE let's bury all our crops six feet underground so that they'll grow stronger in their struggles like the struggle of the proletariat leading to the strength of the revolution LMAO
>DUDE these birds eat crops and pests but mostly pests but we need to kill them LMAO
>DUDE let's give an enormous amount of political power to teenagers LMAO
>DUDE let's make farmers forge steel in their backyards because industry is more important than agriculture LMAO
>DUDE let's destroy over 5000 years of history in the name of Communism and because I don't personally like art LMAO
>DUDE I don't like certain elements of Communism so I'm going to make up my own version that suits my tastes better LMAO
>DUDE I'm going to persecute, jail, and in some cases execute some of the highest institutions of education in the land for the most minor offences imaginable LMAO
>DUDE I'm going to pass out millions of copies of my book to illiterate peasants and now have an even harder time learning how to read because I'm wrecking the education system LMAO

Do average Chinese people have knowledge of Mao's fuck ups? Or is it just grouped along with some "revolutionary struggle" narrative?

Well his face is on the walls of the forbidden city.

Probably the worst, most incompetent "communist".
You could say Pol Pot was wore, but honestly Pol Pot got the outcome he wanted so you could say there's method to his madness.
Everything Mao implemented backfired.

Good inspirer of men, semi-competent military leader and a prime example of what kind of shitty devastating policies one can push for by trying to only treat synptoms of problems without going in depth and actually thinking things through.

Most of the elite and intellectuals of china are well aware of what a bad job he did but everyone is on the same page of "past is the past, lets just try to forget it guys" At the end of the day he still manage to unite China after years of ruin so they pay him this respect. However the leaders know that Mao would have killed every single one of them for turning China into what it is now.

They even made a rule for no more cult of personalities because of his misrule.

The only good thing i can say is that The Long March really is an impressive survival story.

I don't understand why there is such a thing called "Maoist"

I mean the guy was as bad as Stalin but Stalinist is usually an ironic term

he was kim jong un before kim jong un

that it doesn't matter HOW you fight so long as you win.

nah that's pretty obvious

they blame it on his wife and cronies, most of which dies in prison

Tru
Can't deny that

You are aware the CCP officially considers Mao 70% good, 30% bad, correct? If the CCP admits Mao kinda sucked, then the people obviously know too. How much they actually care is another story. Older generations love him though because of land reforms.

Every big name communist had their own brand which got turned into a subset of communism. See Marxist-Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism etc.

Chiang was fucked over by McArthur getting pulled back to the US

Chiang was done for long before MacArthur was reigned in. MacArthur was in East Asia until 1950, the Commies won in '48.

Remember you dumb lefty: it's not an echochamber if everyone has a chance to post. If you were banned or downboated because of your post then it would be an echochamber, but aside from CRITICISMS there is nothing here to censor your post.

All communists are disasters. About 20 -43 million people potentially died from his policies. That doesn't even include people who were actively persecuted.

I literally don't get lefties. Fascist (Hitler specifically) killed about 11 million in the Holocaust. Meanwhile, mass starvation and killings are unheard of in any other fascist regime and overall they worked okay. Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Germany were all fascist at one point, but are still ahead their communist counterparts of Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea, Eastern Europe, etc.

Communism killed 94 million people. Putting up a swastika is de facto illegal but the hammer and sickle? Still an actively considered ideology.

Argentina was second ony to USA in America before fascist and now its barely the Mexico levels. Surely it wasn't 60 gazzilions being dead, but to say that it worked fine is to grasp for straws.

its almost like he read the art of war or something

actively considered?

by who

Argentina rose to prominence thanks to strong exports. That rise stopped in the first world recession following the start of WW1, and later permanently halted in the Great Depression.

Fascism entered Argentinean politics in 1931, well after Argentina's economic halt, and was only able to due so thanks to the political instability caused by the rise of anarcho-communists.

The reason why Argentina is now Mexico tier is that it was never truly on par with Western countries to begin with. It's economy was strong thanks to exports but still lacked industrialization which is why Argentina did not maintain or return to prosperity.

I'm now arguing Fascism made Argentina better, but it'd definitely did not make it as worse as it would have had the communists taken hold of Argentina.

Pottery.

Millennial leftists around the world.

Just like fascism is considered by edgy /pol/tards?

Yes, though the difference being edgy /pol/tards are stuck secluded on /pol/ while Fidel Castro is literally eulogized by DUDE WEED

I literally can't wrap my mind around it. Wear a hammer and sickle, no one cares, wear a swastika and its all FAKE NEWS, ALT RIGHT, WW3!

Not the Literal Hitler he's painted as. He was an excellent military leader, but a completely shit administrator.

He was so attached to his romantic revolutionary ideals that he crashed the country with no survivors in the 50s, and then again in the 60s. If he had just fucked off when the party told him to it would have been fine

You are literally here on Veeky Forums, /pol/. And the fact that people wear swastikas and end up on the news proves you wrong, and they actually do go outside. The establishment also hates commies, and you're delusional if you don't see that.

The only reason why a swastika is worse than a hammer and sickle is because we were actually at war with Nazi Germany, but not the USSR. Stop being retarded.

You seem to not know what a general does.

All Chinese know he made mistakes.

About 70% know that the CCP kicked out the Maoists for being retarded.
Some neo-Maoists in China disregard all of the mistakes as the acts of corrupt officials deluding Mao.

The CCP today is much closer to the pre-Maoism 1921-1935 version than 1949-1972.

>what is cold war
>what is proxy war
>what is war on communism

He essentially started a revolution twice (GLF, CR) instead of sticking with the oligarchic norm that is human society.

He was never a communist. He just used communism to turn the peasantry into an army. Also, he's the reason the Chinese populace is so fucking ass. Fucking Cultural Revolution, what a shame.

He had green teeth because he refused to brush and instead chewed tea leaves.
Never showered or bathed but he enjoyed swimming.
He banged a great deal of women.

As hilariously inept as communism tends to be he was even more hilariously inept

t.Tankie 自干五 dumbass

This. I think the whole "70% good, 30% bad" meme is a poor way to sum up Mao. I think "pre-1949 Mao was good, post-1949 Mao was bad" is a better summary.

In my experience, Chinese people's opinion on him vary. Some absolutely despise him, others are triggered by any criticism of him (like our resident fifty-center), and others just view him as "complicated" or "70% good, 30% bad".

Mao's problem was that he believed that a society needed to be in a constant state of revolution in order to not be stagnant. That's why he was constantly launching mass movements after coming to power. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say he was an addict for revolution. He had to keep launching mass movements in order to get his fix.

you arent even using tankie right

A tankie is anyone who is an apologist for Communist atrocities. Anyone who calls criticism of Mao "my mommy daddy says im not asposed to like the bad communist man", is a tankie because you are essentially brushing aside the fact that his incompetence killed millions.

>>>/reddit/

It stems from the core of the ideologies. No communists start off saying Im gonna execute and starve everybody. The theory of communism while restricting to some is very altruistic. Fascisim is great for the nation that adopts it, but there are no pure nations, so from the get go there are people who will be looked down upon in the society. Its a necessity unlike in communism. Not to mention fascism is largely nationalist based and having everying riding on your origins is empty and causes problems when everything doesnt go peachy because then it turns out you werent so great afterall and works against your core ideology. So you have to blame others for your problems.

tl;dr purely ideologically communism is inclusive, whereas fascisim is exclusive. Thus to a well-meaing idealist communism is the nicer more altruist version that tries to make the world a better place.
Fascisim works only for one nation and fucks everyone else.
Real life results may vary.

Probably because we went through the largest war in human history (60-70 million dead) only a few years after fascist governments took over two major countries.

>Thus to a well-meaing idealist communism is the nicer more altruist version that tries to make the world a better place.Fascisim works only for one nation and fucks everyone else.

Caring about out-groups more than your in-group is against human nature.

The guy literally didnt sayanything yet and you are already assuming he is brushing aside the fact that Mao killed millions. Maybe he was going to talk about certain policies about mao, or character traits he liked, and then would go on to condem the policies that led to the killing of millions. Maybe he would bring up alternatives that would fuel discussion. But good job proving his point that you get jumped on for simply identifying yourself a a socialist.
You dont think about it, but your behavior is very anti-intellectual. You are the "right" version of SJW that yells "NAZI!!!" at everyone who talks about nationalism or doesnt subscribe to their point of view. Try to be less of an assuming scumbag next time.

No one said otherwise. Communism strives to supersede human nature. There are lots of aspects of human nature that are shitty, but civilization is what seperates us from animals.

That sort of arguement does not disuade a well-read idealist.

Communism benefits intellectuals, fascism doesn't.

Historians are intellectuals, and most of them are either communist or have a sympathy for it.

His opinion isn't worth caring about because he labeled Veeky Forums's opinion on Mao as "my mommy daddy says im not asposed to like the bad communist man". With that statement, he shows that he infantilizes anyone who doesn't agree with him.

Furthermore, he didn't go on to discuss Mao's policies. He flat-out said that he wasn't going to bother sharing his opinion because he views Veeky Forums as a "neoreactionary hugbox".

So spare me your crap about how I jumped on him for being a socialist. I've got nothing against socialists, what I've got a problem with is people who infantilize anyone who disagrees with them. He contributed nothing to the thread, and neither did you.

>communism benefits intellectuals, fascism doesn't
clearly you aren't one if that's whay you believe

Good general, fucking terrible leader.
The Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward are some of the dumbest policies ever implemented by any government.

Also gave birth to that Maoist Rebel News faggot so that's another point off.

>There are lots of aspects of human nature that are shitty, but civilization is what seperates us from animals.

That's true, but I still feel that certain elements of human nature are insurmountable, and one of these is the in-group/out-group effect. Considering how globalization is currently strengthening nationalism all over the world, I'm very skeptical that it's possible to create a shared, international, working class identity that can surmount nationalism.

There you go assuming aggressively again. I had this discussion with you and Im having anotherone with another user here.

> Ive got nothing against socialists, what ive got a problem with is peole who infantilize anyone who disagrees with them.
Thats fine, but instead of attacking him on his poor character, you just called him a tankie didnt you?

> he flat out said he wasnt gonna bother sharing his opinion because he views Veeky Forums as a neoreactionary hugbox
Which you promptly proved by calling him a tankie. Instead of calling him out on it and saying there are plenty of left leaning people here on this board. Or encouraging him to share his thoughts on the subject he didnt want to share about. Or like I said earlier, calling out his weak character. You just decided to call him a tankie for no real reason.

I wasnt arguing for the point, I was just trying to explain why it seems more people go for communism over fascism.

That being said, I think it definitely is possible. Its possible on a small scale (individuals and small groups) and so it can be extrapolated onto a large scale. The problem is the logistics of it. Good luck convincing everyone on earth to be an altruist and to leave their selfish ways behind. Its easy for middle class and above, educated, and priveledged people in the 1st world to do. But you know the uneducated poor people will fuck it up the first chace they get.
People essentially need to understand the ideology to participate in it and its very difficult for that to happen on a large scale.
Not impossible tho and certainly there are other ways of making people behave the way you want them to. That unfortunately is where a lot of the human rights violations have occured in the past (pic related), there are plenty of alternatives to try tho.

First off, it's not my responsibility to get him to share his opinion. Everyone else on here shares their thoughts unprompted so why can't he? If he views disagreement on Veeky Forums as being "steamrolled" by a "neoreactionary hugbox", then he's arrogant, and I have no time for him.

Second, you're calling me out for making out assumptions, but why not him? With his statement of "my mommy daddy says im not asposed to like the bad communist man", he's indicating that he views anyone here who criticizes Mao as immature and ill-informed. Never mind the fact that I speak Chinese, have taken courses on contemporary Chinese history, have read numerous books on contemporary Chinese history, and have personally known Chinese whose families suffered under Mao. He's already assuming my background and assuming I know nothing about China.

Furthermore, as I already explained, tankie means someone who is an apologist for crimes against humanity committed by Communist governments. Brushing aside the fact that Mao killed millions makes someone a tankie. Mao's a complicated figure as I said here but I'm not going to pretend that the fact that Mao killed millions isn't important.

Finally, I called him a tankie because he assumed I was a child. If he had just shared his opinion instead of calling people who disagree with him children, maybe I wouldn't have called him a tankie. He insulted me, so I insulted him, and that's the culture here on Veeky Forums. If you expect polite discussion, go post on Quora.

>The problem is the logistics of it. Good luck convincing everyone on earth to be an altruist and to leave their selfish ways behind. Its easy for middle class and above, educated, and priveledged people in the 1st world to do. But you know the uneducated poor people will fuck it up the first chace they get.

Right, these problems are what I view as the main obstacles to Communism. I think that the right to self-determination would have to become an enshrined right with ethnic groups being allowed to secede from countries peacefully, along with the majority of the world reaching first world status or something close to it, before we can even talk about implementing communism.

Again he never brushed off the fact that Mao killed millions, you are assuming that he would. But you are right its not your responsibility to share his opinion and he should have shared it so you could judge him appropriately. Personally I think you are taking his statement too personally for some reason. It was pretty insignificant, thats why I didnt call him out on it.
Calling you out on calling him a tankie was a decision I made because Im tired of seeing someone imply they are a socialist or a communist and then immediately be labeled a tankie. It means that just because you are a communist you support the mass murders that happened before, which is not true in a lot of cases. It just stifles actual discussion and is pre-emptively dismissive, thats all.

You have been relatively reasonable in our exchange and I feel that its come to end with both parties having made their points understood. Cheers dude.

Yeah realistically any real communism is far off, but globalism/internationalism keeps moving quicker and quicker. The trick is to keep western values dominant. In the mean time commies are just trying their best to spread the idea and get it going.

Face it, most people here don't know enough about china to debate in depth about it, so 9/10 times, pro-china points are deflected with wumao accusations, instead of actual criticism. Then comes along a self-proclaimed china expert and you debase yourself by name-calling anyways, reinforcing the view that the bias is so strong here it's not worth to try 'discussing.'

As pointed out, don't chimp out if someone assumes you're ignorant.

>Again he never brushed off the fact that Mao killed millions, you are assuming that he would.

I feel that statements like "my mommy daddy says im not asposed to like the bad communist man" imply that sort of attitude

>Personally I think you are taking his statement too personally for some reason.

It's because online I have argued with apologists for the Chinese Communist Party countless times before. When I raise my points, they usually accuse me of being someone who is "brainwashed by Western media and knows nothing about China". So yes, I'm bitter, and I feel like I can spot fifty-centers pretty well by this point. Statements like that raise my alarm bells.

> Im tired of seeing someone imply they are a socialist or a communist and then immediately be labeled a tankie. It means that just because you are a communist you support the mass murders that happened before, which is not true in a lot of cases. It just stifles actual discussion and is pre-emptively dismissive, thats all

Fair enough. But as I already said, I have no problem with communists or socialists, and I welcome discussion with them. My problem is solely with people who brush aside crimes against humanity committed by Communist governments or leaders like Mao.

>You have been relatively reasonable in our exchange and I feel that its come to end with both parties having made their points understood. Cheers dude.

Same here, best to you too dude

>Then comes along a self-proclaimed china expert and you debase yourself by name-calling anyways, reinforcing the view that the bias is so strong here it's not worth to try 'discussing.' As pointed out, don't chimp out if someone assumes you're ignorant.

Yeah, you make a good point. I'll try to be better user.

IT DOESNT MATTER IF THE CAT IS BLACK OR WHITE. WHAT MATTERS IS IT CATCHES MICE.

You're probably a communists, because I've seen way too many of you guys on these threads lately.

For goodness sakes, we have people who legitimately think things like the nordic countries, corporatism, and distributism is socialism. Honestly, I think the branching out of what "socialism" is comes from the fact that there has never actually been a successful socialist country, so they need to find non-socialist countries and claim they're socialist to claim success.

>Bane Xiaoping

Kek

If I establish special economic zones, would the CCP die?

Well, that and retain his near absolute control of power.

>Jiang Qing: I called you a capitalist roader...
>Deng Xiaoping: And this gives you power over me?

No doubt about that, he did launch the Cultural Revolution to get back power from Liu Shaoqi and the other reformists who sidelined him after the Great Leap Forward after all. However, I feel that his addiction to revolution isn't mentioned enough. It really does define his personality and explains his decisions.

>get shut down
>muh echo chamber

It would be extremely painful

I actually know a guy who thought the Long March was a genocide. American's are so fucking retarded it's not even funny.

You're a big revisionist.

>Chile, Argentina, Brazil were fascist
Retarded Hitlerboo detected
You have to go back

For Yu

Was starving millions of villagers part of your master plan?

Was it autism?

>Oh man we are completely surrounded by the KMT
>Better march to Shaanxi
>Start with 100,000 men
>March 6000 km through mountains over the course of a year
>less than 7000 people are left by the end. Over 90% attrition rate
>Claims a great victory when in fact you literally destroyed your army.

To be fair, the Communists were able to rebuild in Shaanxi and eventually won. The Communists play up the Long March too much, but Mao still saved the Communists from destruction.

im pretty sure chinese people arent allowed to learn

it would be extremely decadent

To be fair, how can history not get political? Half of it is filled with the clash of ideologies. Plus, this place tends to be a magnet for people like me, who like talking politics but aren't so fond of the Holocaust denial and psychotic genocidal tendencies of /pol/.

autism to the MAX

one of those people who should have died before getting into actual nation building.

Of coursh

A fucking mass murder who is indirectly caused the death of 80,000,000 innocent people while destroying priceless remnants of a 5,000 year old culture with the aim of elevating himself to the level of a pseudo god.

Could China have come into the modern age without him?
Yes! They were in the process of doings so after deposing the Qing Court.

Mao just took advantage of the Japanese's handy work upon the nationalist military that was defending the country for the last decade.

But hey they have got all the money now, so just shut the fuck up until the old generation dies and the Chinese admit that their founding father was a fucking sociopath.