/utg/ - Undertale General

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moar

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good night

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nighty

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incest is pretty great

thank you

you're welcome

The lack of 40k x undertale fanart saddens me

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Sorry about the lack of art, i've been busy / not very motivated

>Asgore
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>Toreil
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>Asriel
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>Flowey
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>Frisk
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>Chara
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>Sans
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>Papyrus
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>Gaster
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>Undyne
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>Alphys
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>MTT
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>Napstablook
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>Tem
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>Burgerpants
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>Grillby
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>Edogny
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>Muffet
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>Fishlizard
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>MTT + napsta
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>Goat family
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>Skeletons
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>Undyne + Asgore
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>Alphys + Sans
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>Partners
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>Asriel + Chara
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>Nicepants
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>kids
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>Group
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Would tbe inperium even approve of them? I imagine it would depend on the primarch who finds them.

Thanks for doing this for us, user.
There's no need to apologise. Although we appreciate you doing this, there's no obligation to continue if you don't feel motivated to.

Kinda reminds me of this one.

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would you

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I don't even like Toriel.

Good

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this far exceeds my shitposting capacity

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Asgore having a sad moment where he thinks about his past crimes, but availing of therapeutic techniques and confiding in his friends and family to help him cope and avoid dwelling on it unnecessarily!

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Did you know that canonically Alphys and Undyne are Fulliautomatix and Unhygienix reincarnated as lesbians

Don't worry, its not like that.

Thank you! They're great.

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you are a good man, man

Just wanna be real here, but I just don't get this game, neither do I understand its popularity. While I saw its potential when I initially played it, I began to see another side to Undertale; moreso a contempt of RPGs and those who play them. It made me wonder if the guy enjoys the genre at all. Things like grinding and mere player curiosity are demonized in this game, but it seems like people ENJOY this aspect of Undertale, especially when it has permanent consequences in store for anyone wanting their money's worth. I dunno, as an avid loved of RPGs, it came off as thoroughly insulting.

Undertale's strengths lie in its soundtrack and characters
And yes, it's insulting you as a grindy rpgfag

If you're actually getting mad because the monsters don't like you for killing their friends then that's on you buddy

Yup, and as someone who despises grinding in RPGs I liked Undertale shitting on it in a meta way.

He's much too involved with Earthbound not to enjoy the genre. He definitely does enjoy it.
Undertale contains criticism of RPGs, but all of it is interesting and seems fair.
It's important to understand the flaws of the things you love.

Even the charcaters are kind of irritating. Toriel is a creep and Sans is a good-for-nothing. The only likeable charcater is Papyrus...to an extent. Not fond of idiot characters that think they're hot shit.

And what can I say? If a game has a fun battle system, I don't mind grinding. Anyone who really bashes RPGs for grinding needs to grow up. Everything takes time and effort; even getting stronger in a video game. If Toby finds that troubling then it's clear RPGs aren't for him.

But it's perfectly fine for the monsters to kill me, huh?

Sure. The genre has flaws, but why not IMPROVE those flaws instead of flat out criticizing them and making it even worse? I don't mind turn based RPGs but I also like the Tales games and the Mario & Luigi games because you're more involved and grinding is even fun because of it.

Thanks, user. Think that last Chara one might actually be Gegege no Kitaro though.

The characters are flawed. A lot of them have unsubtle moments when they address those flaws.
I don't think Undertale even expresses that sentiment about grinding. As far as I can tell the most it has to say about grinding is that it's kind of horrifying for it to involve killing sapient creatures when you think about it.
I do personally object to grinding. It takes time, but no effort aside from that. It's artificial difficulty that takes advantage of sunk cost-type biases to make it feel like you're doing something valuable. I've wasted too much time on it and it soured me on many video games.

But it does improve on those flaws. It combats the way the lack of lasting consequences destroys immersion by pulling the save mechanic into the storyline (in pacifist) or inserting real lasting consequences (in genocide).

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You're canonically a functional god that cannot be killed since you can just load your game as many times as you like and the monsters therefore are no threat to you

It's not fine for the monsters to kill you.
It's even less fine for you to kill the monsters, because the most they can do is get in your way, as per .

The lasting consequences are what I dislike the most about this game. As well as the fact that only one path is the true one. There's really no need for other options when there's only one right answer. Furthermore, I believe that lasting consequences shouldn't be in video games. If I wanted to make a choice that will stay with me forever, I have real life for that. That's the difference between reality and a video game. I like when a game can freely allow you to explore choices and get involved with different facets of a story because that's not something you can readily do in real life.

Are you talking about the genocide thing? It's like a 2 second immaterial cutscene that you can remove by deleting two files.

Technically you CAN be killed. Just by monsters doing mundane things. It's just like any other RPG. You're still at the mercy of enemies. The only difference is that Undertale tries to make this into some great superpower; like you're invincible and you can do anything. Which kinda muddies the water later on.

1. It ruins a happy ending.
2. If I have to mess with files or uninstall a game to start fresh, then that is flawed game design. Again, lasting consequences do not belong in games. At least not without a way to start fresh.

This is a pretty trivial complaint if this is really your biggest issue with the game - a short non-gameplay modification to an ending that can be really easily reversed.

It sounds like you've understood half the point of the game, and are close to getting the rest. This part in particular:
>There's really no need for other options when there's only one right answer.
This is really the central issue of Undertale. Many choices aren't meaningful when you can go back and make the right one. Being able to go back arguably gives you the responsibility to do so, because it gives you perfect information.
>I like when a game can freely allow you to explore choices and get involved with different facets of a story because that's not something you can readily do in real life.
I like that too. Toby Fox likes that too, to be sure, he made Earthbound ROM hacks. But it fucks with the story, because it makes it less significant. Removing that element improves the story. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and Undertale reverses it, in an extremely mild way. Undoing the consequences is still trivial.

>that is flawed game design
Take a step back. What's the goal of good game design?
Doing it this way makes Undertale better at doing what it's trying to do. It makes the game succeed at its goal. Maybe you don't like that goal, but that just means you don't like what Undertale is trying to be, not that Undertale is badly designed or executed.

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It's not my biggest issue. It's one of them, but it's a highlight of why I believe the genocide route is heavyhanded and unnecessary. Moreso when the gane itself glorifies super pacifism.

To beat the game you have to step up and beat up Asgore and Flowey though so it's not like the game's saying you should just sit there and take abuse is it

Again, that's the difference between reality and a video game. That you can go back and do things differently. The game Radiant Historia illustrates this expertly. While there is a perfect path that the game sets you in, you can make other decisions and watch how they play out. It doesn't make the story any less significant because then you see how the outcome plays and how that leads to a bad end.

And yeah, I can give Undertale credit for succeeding at what it's trying to do. Keyword trying. It just fails in execution and comes off as overtly harsh just for the sake of "being different".

It's like that way for everything else in the game. Super pacifism saves the day. Exxept when it doesn't. But by the time the game acknowledges this, it's at the very end.

All the game asks is that you don't kill or be killed. Beating up monsters before sparing them is a valid strategy.
"Don't kill people, especially if you can avoid it" is not hardcore pacifism.

>that's the difference between reality and a video game
I know. Undertale knows it too. That's the point. Are you saying that Undertale is bad because it does something differently from other video games?
Being different doesn't make a game bad, or good. Undertale doesn't have being different at its goal. It tries to do something interesting, which happens to be different from most other games. Being different shouldn't even come into your judgment of whether it's a good game, so why are you involving it?
>It doesn't make the story any less significant
It does, because the outcomes lack weight that way. Wouldn't you agree that the genocide ending feels more important to you because it has lasting consequences? You have spent quite a while arguing about it, after all.

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Who let /v/ in the thread?
Also fuck you
Asgore, Sans, Undyne, Asriel and even Alphys are all likable. All the characters were would be boring as fuck if they were flawless dindus.

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Yeah but that message comes at the end when you've already gone through the game being a super pacifist. It's pointless then.

The genocide ending is irksome, not important. I'm arguing about it because it's a route that punishes various aspects of an RPG player's mindset. And might I remind you that this game advertises itself as an RPG. For that matter, why would you want your outcomes to have "weight", to the point where future playthroughs are tainted just because of one decision? And when you think about it, there's not much weight at all in regards to the genocide run because even doing the pacifism run doesn't fix the tainted ending. There only appears to be weight if you do something the game doesn't like you doing, yet no way to rectify it?

I'm not saying they have to be flawless, that would be boring. But at least make me give a shit about them rather than making them into horrible caricatures that no one would like irl. People are flawed but they need to have good qualities to outweigh the bad. Otherwise, it just comes off that we're meant to not like them but still befriend them, otherwise the game has a hissy fit if you don't.

With "being a super pacifist", do you mean "don't kill anyone you don't have to kill, possibly after going back to try again"? That's not extreme pacifism. That's just reasonable.
Are you objecting to a bad ending making you feel bad? Isn't that what they're for?
The pacifist run only has lasting consequences if you don't reset. There's a whole thing where Flowey pops up if you restart the game to make sure you get that. Resetting is given weight, and through that, the pacifist ending is given weight because you're canonically throwing it away if you start over.

I think you're just projecting. I'm a pretty large fan of RPGs as well. I find grinding to actually be fairly relaxing and I like seeing my numbers go up, heck i'm even playing FFX right now and bothering to grind to do the super bosses just for kicks and yet I still really enjoy the True Pacifist route and I found the anti-grind of genocide to be an amusing twist on it.
>But at least make me give a shit about them rather than making them into horrible caricatures that no one would like irl.
But they aren't, yeah they're goofy but not that goofy. >People are flawed but they need to have good qualities to outweigh the bad.
All those characters I listed do though.
Sans is funny and likable, Asgore is really nice and his interactions with Undyne and Alphys are great. His boss fight is a 10/10 moment and his backstory is tragic and understandable. Undyne is just a cool heroic figure that is also goofy and even kind of sweet. Asriel is a little kid that got fucked over and was clearly not a bad person before everything went down and you're lying to yourself if you don't relate to Alphys on some level.
Even Toriel has that whole loving mom thing going on for her if you're into that.

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Let me rephrase that actually, you're lying to yourself if you post on Veeky Forums and don't relate to Alphys on some level.

I haven't an issue with getting a bad ending. Just don't make me stuck with one.

So are you complaining that you don't like the bad ending which you aren't supposed to like?

Yet, I still dislike them. Like I said, Sans is a good-for-nothing. Not to mention he flat out tells you that he would've killed you on the spot if not for a promise he made with Toriel. And Toriel ain't all that great either, keeping you in her house and refusing to let you leave, only to attack you when you insisted on going about your merry way (sounds more like a kidnapping situation to me). Undyne is a psychopath that's broken off from reality...yeah, why do people like these characters again?

Sigh. No. I just said I have no problem with getting a bad ending. I'm saying I should be allowed to fix said bad ending like any other game would.

Toby jacks off to Earthbound and Mother 3 every night, he doesn't hate the genre.

What do you mean?

Can you name a few characters you do like from other stories?
Character flaws aren't really unusual, or bad story-wise.

Why?

Those might just be the exceptions, though.

At that point it sounds like a personal taste kind of thing.
Alphys is a social mess
Toby has said he was inspired by SMT, I cant imagine anyone playing main line SMT that didn't enjoy RPGs

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Undertale also draws inspiration from Shin Megami Tensei and the Mario & Luigi RPGs, among others. He used to use RPG Maker in high school to make RPGs.
He likes RPGs. Really.

Valvatorez from Disgaea 5 is one of ny favorite RPG protagonists because of how loyal and headstrong he is. I also like Edea Lee from Bravely Default. Then there's Gladion from Pokemon Sun/Moon. Also Luke from Tales of the Abyss. I agree character flaws aren't bad, but they shouldn't wholly consume the character.

And to answer your second question, why not?

Valvatorez is alright but i'm the weirdo that liked the characters in 3 despite everyone else hating them for some reason

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>why not?
Because it makes the game more immersive and demonstrates one of its messages, as I extensively explained.

I guess I'm mostly going on the execution of the game. It certainly comes off as being made by someone inspired by RPGs, but I still feel there's some dislike for the genre involved as well.

Well, yeah, it criticizes certain things about the genre.
There's also some dislike of comics involved in Watchmen.

I don't understand this mentality. Just how hard is it to be immersed in a game even if it gives you multiple choices or allows you to start anew?

I don't mean just criticism. Some of it just comes off as malicious (for example, how LV and EXP are translated). At least when Disgaea makes fun of RPG aspects, it's in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. It's not pointing fingers and making implications of the player.

>some of it just comes off as malicious
Just admit that it hurt your feelings so we can all laugh at you already

Um, no.

I can see why someone who finds a lot of comfort in RPGs would feel defensive about the way the game tries to examine the mechanics of them, but I don't think it was meant as an attack on anyone who enjoys RPGs outside of the game so much as it wanted to give weight to those aspects within the game because it was important to the specific narrative of Undertale. I don't really see it saying that grinding itself is bad or anything, just that it's kind of weird how it's attached to killing sentient beings a lot of the time (and it's not exactly the first game to do so either). It's not like grinding can't be something else or anything. But really I think this game pales in comparison to, say, everyone constantly telling Caim how evil and bloodthirsty he is for being a protagonist in a game based on killing as much as possible in Drakengard 1.

So why'd they take the cube that all the murderbots are tracking into the city, isn't that the worst possible place to take it

Because what Undertale does is something that only works in a game format. It breaks that wall between player and game that normally remains untouched. If you have the tool to do something with the medium you chose for your story, why not attempt something interesting?

>It's not pointing fingers and making implications of the player.
You're mowing down sentient talking/walking/feeling creatures by the dozen, only some of which actually want to hurt you, all to raise arbitrary numbers. Within that specific world, what DOES that say about you?

Like I said, I'm mostly going by how the game was designed. I feel if it wanted to make a point about pacifism, then just have that be the game. Just have your character play with monsters instead. Forego the need to attack. Other than that, the extra routes and the 4th wall breaking jabs at the player are just unneeded, really. Heck, I would've liked the game just for having a new perspective on enemy encounters. But everything else, just for the sake of a "message", soured my opinion of an admittedly well made game.

Um....lots of games break the fourth wall. What's your point?

And none of the creatures are sentient. At all. They're programmed into the game to behave the way they do. I'm just the guy playing the game.

It's hard to make a point about pacifism when there's no fighting.

They're sentient in the story. In the story, you're mowing them down just to increase your fighting ability, which is not a good reason, in the story.

>And none of the creatures are sentient. At all. They're programmed into the game to behave the way they do. I'm just the guy playing the game.
Legit question, are you autistic?

You're flip-flopping at this point. One moment your problem is that a choice has lasting impacts, then your problem is that there's a choice to begin with. Which is it?

Do you want to be immersed or not? If not, that's perfectly fine, it isn't for everyone. But if yes, you have to accept the rules of the game, if you want to get the most out of it.

>Just have your character play with monsters instead.
But then you lose basically everything even slightly interesting about Undertale
No fighting means no killing monsters means no alternative paths means no choices means nothing fucking matters

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, my stance is that it's far more preferable to actually get a choice. Going back to my Drakengard comparison, it literally doesn't give you the option not to kill and still wants to guilt trip you for killing when it's the only way to play the game. I actually hold Drakengard way closer to my heart than Undertale (if only for the wild fucking ride of the last 2 endings) but I appreciate the latter for at least allowing me to choose what approach I want to take.

My problem is that no choice matters but one so why not cut out the middle man and just have one route where pacifism is the answer?

Nothing matters anyway if pacifism is the right answer, so why not?

If pacifism is the right answer, for it to matter there has to be a wrong answer for that answer to be meaningful
And even ignoring that if you remove fighting you remove tons and tons of content and the basic most interesting feature in the entire game for no reason other than to avoid someone getting salty because they got a bad ending