Philosophy of transgender

Why then do these expectations so often involve manmade things, which did not exist for much of human evolution?

The other guy is correct. Thats the whole purpose of the word gender. To distinguish between what's between your legs and what role in society does it imply.

Language is subjective.

Orwell pointed that out.

Really, there are tons of things that you do to your language process that is not subjective to reality.

>Transgender people denying the use of traditional he/she pronouns denies the ability of our mind to categorize human beings.
not really

>If I defined you as male, you are still considered a male.
pre-op trannies differentiate between the male sex and the masculine gender. They claim to be feminine males and enhance this with hormones until the femininity is such that either they "pass" or they come so close that they feel a "she" is more warranted.

>There is the question of minds being feminine or masculine
if by minds you mean brains, tranny brains are different from cis brains of both genders. They're their own thing.

mental illness is a meme and most psychology is trash guesswork.

the only issue is that most non indo-european languages are absolute and total ear-rape.

Transgenderism is directly opposed to feminism. Feminism argues that men and women are equal, except for artificial social constructs like 'girls wear dresses' and 'boys like blue,' whereas trans people will argue that they have the minds, brain chemistry, whatever of the opposite sex, therefore saying that men and women are in fact different on a biological level.

Which one is it?

More recent arguments from the trans are akin to what is saying, about people who are simply feminine males/masculine females who undergo procedures to look like the opposite sex that they already behave as. But if that's the real case, and it isn't a matter of a biological "error" that resulted in these people being born with the minds of the opposite sex, and its just a matter of wanting a different appearance, than that makes them no different than a fat person wanting to be thin or short person wanting to be tall, which would make their whole cause shallow and unsympathetic.

10/10 quality discussion. You most likely have no clue what mental illness even means

>Transgenderism is directly opposed to feminism.
not really

>Feminism argues that men and women are equal, except for artificial social constructs like 'girls wear dresses' and 'boys like blue,'
Equal =/= identical. They argue that they are just as worthy, not biologically identical.

>whereas trans people will argue that they have the minds, brain chemistry, whatever of the opposite sex, therefore saying that men and women are in fact different on a biological level.
Actually Trannies usually point to the research that shows that Trannies have neither strictly male nor female brains but brains that slightly differ from either.

>it isn't a matter of a biological "error" that resulted in these people being born with the minds of the opposite sex
It is a biological "error" but they aren't born with either male or female "minds", they're just trannies.

>that makes them no different than a fat person wanting to be thin
If fat people lose weight we call them thin

Transgenderism is gender essentialism.
The mental gymnastics that feminists have to do to support it are just amazing.
rad-fems are the only ones who realize this.

M E N T A L

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>Very often the gender of the person referred to is unknown, unspecified (when not talking about someone specific) or irrelevant
That's what the singular they is for, and no, it's not a SJW invention, Chaucer, Shakespeare, and the King James Bible used it.

That's hardly philosophical in an academic sense. Your use of philosophy is just a 'dude humanities lmao' excuse to soapbox on what seems to be commonly regarded as /b/ for pseudointellectuals. Look around though, you don't need to hide from the janny. He's never around or simply doesn't give a fuck. You can soapbox and shitpost to your heart's content here without fear.

except for young impressionable children who get pressured into taking hormone replacement therapy by their "progressive" parents just because they like barbies instead of trucks.

this whole issue is sensationalised out the ass. people arent put on HRT at that age, they are put on blockers until they are old enough to decide (as in, old enough to understand sex characteristics and gender). Blockers simply delay the onset of puberty, and have no negative side effects so long as they start puberty within the normal timeframe

>8 year olds have the capacity to consent to going on hormone blockers for purposes of ultimately changing their sex

Pls go

by that logic we shouldnt use any sort of preventative measures on children
also blockers arent prescibed to 8 year olds, one has to already have started puberty to prove that theres puberty to suppress

>hurr mental illness

Why do people use this when it's literally not an argument?

Honestly I don't understand the "dysphoria" concept at all. How many people were given the bodies they would exactly like to have? Probably very few of us.

Do I experience dysphoria over comparing my body to the one I would rather have?

So if I were born with a male body, yet idealized the female body I may experience dysphoria but unless I was hopelessly narcissistic and mentally unstable I wouldn't try to "change" my body. Just accept the one I have.

dysphoria is very difficult to explain to someone who doesnt experience it. but the closest thing to the feeling is, say, if a man woke up one day and he was a woman. once you get past the novelty of it, he knows himself to be a man, and yet no one else can see it. people call him she, ask him if he'll ever have children, he no longer has a penis, and starts to menstruate, he has breasts, and he sees the men around him living their normal lives and its a constant reminder that he doesnt have that. this constant, daily emasculation he feels is dysphoria, and it causes a great deal of suffering and mental anguish in the person, and the only known treatment (currently) is transition

> Do I experience dysphoria over comparing my body to the one I would rather have?

You could argue that all women eventually suffer from this form of dysphoria eventually.

Its a genetic mutation that attempts to normalize its parasitic existence.

"Normalcy" is a tendency towards order, and timelessness, this is represented by physical beauty, intelligence, courage, and all other qualities that allow an organism to preserve itsself in the flux of existence for a longer span of time.

Transgender and all other forms of genetic mutations are abnormal because they wish to destroy the order of normalcy and the tendency towards order by including themselves despite their shortcomings in regards to achieving timelessness, usually due to their infertile nature. They are parasitical because they do not contribute to the timelessness of a group through their infertility and feel a desire to force the group to lower their standards of potential for timelessness as to satisfy their emotional gratification, while contributing nothing tangible.

>Normalcy
It's normality you fucking frogposter. Normalcy is the most disgusting perversion of a word ever.

Wow, that post went full retard in the first sentence and never pulled back.

triggered?

Hi Jordan. Still brain-farming the alt-right? Geez. You seem to be flogging a dead donkey. Could there possibly be better uses of your time?

>comparing hormonally destroying a child's natural puberty to preventive medicine

Kill yourself

It has nothing to do with genetics or mutations. They literally just made that shit up.

This. If you're going to seriously argue that there's no distinction between biological sex and cultural gender, you have to defend retarded shit like long hair and light shades of red being biologically feminine. The fact that concepts similar to "transgenderism" (often including homosexuals) was tolerated independently in separate premodern cultures across the world, suggests to me that it is a valid phenomenon best solved by integrating them into society in some way. Even if transgenderism is a mental illness, the people making this argument don't seem to be very interested in a cure, and speak of them like criminals or sinners rather than victims.

>Transgenderism is directly opposed to feminism.

Please learn *something* basic about your political opponents before you attempt to disparage them. Liberal feminists typically support transgender people. Radical feminists typically do not. The same generally applies to sex work and pornography.

Male and female are fundamentally different catagories to man and woman.
There are many males nowadays who don't classify as men, and many females who are not women.
Who is to say that certain males can't choose to be women, and certain females can't choose to be men, given that many of the members of the biological genders assigned to said societal catagories are doing such a shit job of it.

>objective truth
wew lad

anyway, just popped in to drop this
thephilosophicalsalon.com/the-sexual-is-political/

>hormonally destroying a childs puberty
source please? puberty blockers are preventive medicine, if this was about literally any other mental illness there would be no fucking problem

it doesn't quite work like that. it's more like a person's mind recognizes their body a different way from the reality. for example, a person who experiences dysphoria about their leg, which is a known phenomena, is being told by their brain that their leg isn't a part of their body, that it doesn't belong there. If you saw a growth on your body, you'd naturally want to remove it. well it's kind of the same thing for them.

sometimes there are ways to treat it so it goes away, but it's also not unusual for people to simply change their body the way they feel it should be. People with dysphoria about their leg will sometimes get it amputated, as living with a prosthetic is better to them than living with the leg they have, for them that is.

Nobody says you have to conform to "roles", is this kind of retarded reasoning really why trannies fucking mutilate themselves? Is there line of thinking really "I don't conform to gender stereotypes of this gender, therefore i must not be this gender"

I'll eat my hat if you can provide evidence of people getting their legs amputated because of dsyphoria.

Except gender didn't mean that until the 50s and we already can say "your role in society" or your personality. The word gender should go back to just being a polite way of saying sex, using the word gender to essentially describe "my personality/place in society" makes both of those things pointlessly tied to sex. And in that case pronouns weren't based on gender anyway, they were based on sex.

not the user you replied to but its called BIID (body integrity identity disorder) and involves a strong desire to amputate their limbs because they feel they 'dont belong', its a form of extreme dysmorphia thats results in body mutilation if not treated

Yes I am aware it exists I'm asking for proof that legs are actually amputated as a treatment.

I have no idea how to even reply to this. You're literally treating a child's natural biological development as an illness.

ok, sorry, my bad

theguardian.com/science/2012/nov/14/please-amputate-this-leg
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326051/

If an condition will likely cause death in a large amount of cases (wether due to complications or not) is it not an illness?

Only someone that's mentally ill would make that up.

>travelling to Asia to get your leg removed by a surgeon starved for cash

sounds legit

Except just like someone waking up in the past and saying they're from the future, that doesn't happen and we rightfully would say someone proclaiming themselves to be from the future to be insane.

if a child shows strong indicators that they may develop a mental illness (or have an underlying disorder) then it makes sense to treat the cause of the illness does it not? in this case the distress is coming from the development of sex characteristics of their birth sex. since there is a safe way to delay this until the people involved are sure that the distress is coming from this and not another source then that measure should be taken. in children with precocious puberty, its still their 'natural biological development' but it still needs to be treated, same with children with ADHD/ADD, schizophrenia, and anxiety

...

The illness is not in the body but in the brain.

There are three genders
>Male
>Female
>Mentally Ill

Also fuck people that think they are special snowflakes. They should be dragged from Their bed to the street and shot.

No
o

40% of teen transitioners still suffer from dysphoria upon reaching adulthood. Look it up.

Gender is just a grammatical cathegory. I don't understand how it ever started to describe self identity with these lunatics.

Originally in hunter-gatherer societies, sure. In modern, Western, society, cultural roles need not be based on sex at all. A man's natural strength isn't needed for him to lead a successful life.

No you'd argue that things such as long hair aren't essential to the female gender and that there are distinct terms for this, namely "gender roles" and "gender stereotypes" both of which are just arbitrary expectations which feminists have been fighting for nearly a hundred years. The argument you're talking about is purely a retarded semantics debate that says gender should instead be equal to those (notably varying from culture to culture) roles and stereotypes. It's like there's usually lightning in a storm and then deciding that a storm should be redefined to mean "something with lightning".

do you really think the hormonal differences between men and women don't influence their behavior and world view?

>Male and female are fundamentally different catagories to man and woman.
Yes, a man is an adult male and a woman is an adult female

Yes, but in a similair way, the cure for a disease may not always be administered by curing the disease flesh directly.
In the same way poor circulation in extremities is rarely remedied anywhere near the extremity (heart conditions usually).

The brain is diseased, but changing the body may save the patients life. If you have a better solution with a higher survival rate, I advise you write a paper on it, as you are about to be very rich.

perhaps, but why should you even suspect hormonal differences effect everyone the same way?

thats can be because of a number of different factors, the main one would be having their birth genitals, or still being treated like their birth sex by people they knew before transition, or HRT not meeting their expectations. still, 40% is pretty good compared to the ~100% of late transitioners. transition isn't perfect, but it's the best treatment we have

Every adult male you have ever met is someone you would call a man?
No matter how weak, stupid, poor, or degenerate they are?

I know many adult males, but few men.

Derrida says that any system of classification that has outliers is no longer valid. This is called a scandal. If you make an exception, you've created a serious problem for truths and values. Derrida says that unless a distinction can be made rigorous and precise, it isn't really a distinction at all.

The moment we treat male/female as all or nothing, we are set up for failure. Any exemption will undermine it. If we shift all-or-nothing to nearly-all and allow for exceptions, we acknowledge male/female as natural, but not universal. The binary remains secure, and the exception unthreatening.

Transgender persons and other exceptions arise now and then, but they don't subvert, transgress, dismantle, or undermine longstanding and stable categories of human being.

"Wah I transitioned so people would give me special treatment wah!" Maybe they just don't treat the sexes so different after all? This further supports that trannies oppose feminism.

>he thinks just because a spook is loosely based on something not a spook that makes it not a spook

Yes because that's what a man is you stupid fag. Are you seriously so autistic that you think when someone says "alright ladies" to two men they actually think of them as women?

You can be male, female, neither, or both. Name an outlier.

We have a society where a 20 year old isn't considered mature enough to drink but a 13 year old can give informed consent to rape his body with unnatural hormones and eventually get his genitals mutilated.

I'm not even mentioning how this behavior is encouraged by idiot libtard parents who legally change their son's gender because he likes dresses or dolls and use the child as an attention whoring device. I can't even begin to describe how sick this shit is, it makes me want to vomit that our society lets this happen to children.

Years from now people will look at this "treatment" the same way we look at lobotomy now, as sheer retardation.

They likely do yes, but are they significant enough to demand large differences in social expectations?

where the fuck did I say that

The masculine one is, the more conservative they are.

telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9197597/Strong-men-more-likely-to-vote-Conservative.html

Nope bud, I can understand when a claim is so obviously incorrect that sarcasm is implied.
However, if there is a nu-male in a dress and chastity who passes, and someone calls them a women, there is no obvious mistake there.
If someone functions as the modern societal role, who is to say they are not it?
Modern women can choose to not have children, they can choose to cut their hair however they like, they can be fat, they can be ugly, etc, and I don't see an inherent feature in the societal facade of women that excempts some males.
Similairly with men and certain females, I know females who encompass the societal profile of a man more than I do, regardless of what is between their legs.

As has been highlighted throughout history, there needs to deviation between the biological truth the the emotional/moral/societal impression.

There is a clear biological difference between black men, and white men, but to save our world from moral bankrupcy we choose to ignore that and treat all men equally.

I'm actually disagreeing with Derrida. Male/female binaries fall short of universality, but we still have common sense, science, and morality to uphold them. The presence of an exception may subvert the absolute scope of a distinction, but who says we can't handle that shortcoming without uprooting the categories themselves? Exceptions do not bring upon collapses.

I wasn't quoting you

Because women aren't defined by how they dress or how they act you faggot? Those are literally just stereotypes, should women be defined by their stereotypical bad driving too you dumb faggot? No, it's just genes.

If women is synoymous with female, as it's "just genes" then why do/did we bother having two different words?

Women, as a catagory within western society, exists only to denote a set of behaviours/customs/austhetics, and I personally believe that very little of what it means to be a modern woman revolves around childbirth (the sole functions that genetic female have over genetic males)

>synonyms aren't allowed to exist
Kill yourself

Transgenderism is more to do with gender identity, and is the reason the distinction is make, gender identity being the expectations placed upon the sexes, transgender people prefer a gender identity that doesn't match the gender the were born as.

I mean that's just me assuming stuff, but i'm honestly not sure why the procedure is done so i won't comment on that, but i vaugley remember reading something about it being a pretty effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

You truly believe that women and female mean exactly the same thing? there is no biological conotations due to common use?
Am I going to need to go and get an Oxford Dictionary definition for you?

That's still a 60% sucess rate, and that's frankly better than zero.

>using a plural noun to refer to a singular object
Nice meme.
>B-but it's been used for hundreds of years!
That doesn't make it less of a meme.

She's always a female to me

She's always a woman to me

These two statements clearly have different meanings, because we use woman as a way to talk about a set of values we ascribe to females, it is disengious to state that female and woman are synonyms culturally.

The diagnoses are also fucking hogwash. You often hear how transgenderism can be diagnosed through a brain scans, but a 99% of tans "patients" don't undergo these brain scans - they literally got approved for HRT based on a fucking questionnaire.

Well 60% of those who went through said questionairre said they felt better, questionairres aren't inherantly invalid, i mean if a doctor gave me a list and asked me to fill in symptoms and answer a few questions i don't think that'd be a bad thing at all.

You're actually correct. A woman is an adult human female :)

>Doctor, I've been having this splitting headach-
>SAY NO MORE SENPAI. IT'S BRAIN CANCER!
>How can you know for sure?
>WELL IS THERE THIS DULL, PULSATING PAIN IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD?
>Yes doctor...
>WELL THERE YOU HAVE IT. CANCER.
>But ... shouldn't we do like a CAT scan or something?
>NO NEED FAMPAI. SUPERFICIAL DIAGNOSIS BASED ON AN ORAL SYMPTOM CHECKLIST IS ENOUGH, CHEMO STARTS TOMORROW
>Chemo? Isn't that kind of radical if you're not even sure if it's cancer?
>DON'T WORRY user - 60% OF OUR PATIENTS THAT UNDERWENT 5 MONTHS OF CHEMO SHOW NO SIGNS OF CANCER.

>adult

I like the implication then that there is more to being a woman than just being female.

If the medical diagnosis isn't effective then how do the symptoms noted on the questionaiire disappear, what proof do you have that said questionairre isn't adequete for the diagnosis?

Yes, it also means being an adult and being human, it doesn't mean having long hair, wearing dresses etc.

Define adult

The fact that both the psychiatrist professionals and the trans activists say transgenderism can be proven by a brain scan - yet said brain scan is almost never required for perscription. Personally I think this might be the result of pharma industry trying to cash in on needless overperscriptions like they do with SSRI, but not really sure. Either way it's retarded, irresponsible and unethical.

Why? I mean what's the reason for getting a brainscan if doctors have decided that a questionairre will do surely a corpration couldn't just say no, like there's gotta be some laws putting the opinions of medical proffesionals over their employers? forgive me, i don't really uderstand how the american medical system works.

Over 18 :)