If in August 1941, Hitler had pushed onwards and taken Moscow before more Russian defences arrived...

If in August 1941, Hitler had pushed onwards and taken Moscow before more Russian defences arrived, instead of instead turning south towards the Donbass, he could have seized moscow and held on to it throughout the winter.

He would have captured an important communications and transport hub which would have pretty much crippled the soviets ability to move armies around. Not to mention Stalin refused to leave Moscow so there is a chance he could have even captured Stalin or senior members of the soviet high command.

Thus in spring 1942, he could have focused on mopping up the remaining soviet forces trapped in Ukraine, instead of over extending himself south towards Stalingrad.

I understand he wanted the oil, but he wasn't exactly in short supply at the time. Holding both Moscow and the Ukraine throughout 1942 and not pushing forward, but instead focusing on building up his defences and allowing his armies to restrengthen and consolidate the captured areas would have been far better than stretching his arms out as far and as fast as possible towards the caucasus.

Thoughts?

You're going to have to prove he could have actually taken Moscow, reaching it was already hard enough.

this, moscow was one of the most fortified efforts of anyone anywhere during the whole world war. additionally moscow is a very large city, overshadowing every single soviet city by a large margin

What do you mean most fortified? How much fortified? Care to elaborate?

He means Stalin turned out the entire population to dig trenches and tank traps.

Heeresgruppe Mitte was still stuck around Smolensk in August 1941 so it's unlikely they could push forward. The only way would be to ignore encircled pockets of Red Army in that area and proceed further, which would be dumb because those units would just hit them in the back, we're talking about entire armies.

There was no way to intelligently invade Russia. Any approach was a bad one.

By not attacking South you've left 600,000+ Soviet soldiers intact in Ukraine on the southern flank who were destroyed in Kiev, and will certainly fail to capture Moscow too, since the Soviets expended their forces in the period before the original Battle of Moscow in futile counter-attacks. Here, they will still be positioned in their fortifications around the city. Your army will fail to capture Moscow, and then the Southwestern Front will sweep up remaining German forces from the South. The Soviet Union will have not lost an entire Front, inflict catastrophic damage on the German army which might include the annihilation of Army Group Center, and will be placed in an even better position than historically for a Winter Offensive.

I'm not joking when I say that it is possible you've shortened the time period until an Allied Victory by years.

>He means Stalin turned out the entire population to dig trenches and tank traps.
The Germans did the same in 1945 to protect Berlin.
Well-equipped and organized engineers can overcome these kinds of obstacles quite easily. Most basic defenses like trenches can be combated fairly effectively with artillery as well.

Moscow was already enough of a beast to even reach, taking the city would most likely devolve into a larger scale stalingrad, with house-to-house, room-to-room fighting in a city of over 5 million. Sewers, subway stations/tunnels, everything would have to be cleared individually in order to secure control of a city that's over 2500 square kilometers.

it was a herculean task to even reach the city, taking it in the condition that the Wehrmacht was in, even by September 1941, was a pipe dream.

I say this because the chiefs of staff of the Wehrmacht concluded that they didn't have the manpower or supplies to assault and capture Leningrad by assault, a city of half the population and size, and opted to lay it to siege. In moscow's case, laying on mostly flatland without a coastline to box it in, had to either be taken by direct assault, or not at all.

The Soviets at Berlin had 1,500,000 troops directly at Berlin, while the Germans had around 100,000 of which 50,000 were militia, as well as an artillery advantage of around 7 to 1, and crushing superiority in tanks and aircraft.

The Germans have a quality advantage in 1941 against the Soviets, but certainly they will not have anything like the balance of forces the Soviets did in 1945. It doesn't make a good comparison if it is trying to use Soviet success in 1945 to say that the Germans will be successful in 1941.

>If in August 1941, Hitler had pushed onwards and taken Moscow before more Russian defences arrived, instead of instead turning south towards the Donbass, he could have seized moscow and held on to it throughout the winter.


If in August 1941, Hitler had barreled straight for Moscow, he would have

A) had to use AGC alone, whose operational strength was way down and they needed a chance to rest and recuperate.

B) It would have been before the disastrous Soviet Roslavl-Novozybkov counteroffensive, which started August 30th and cost them almost half of their forces in the sector.

Ironically, it would have been harder to go forward than it would have been historically.

Hitler just couldn't believe all the tanks the soviets could produce.

>Roslavl-Novozybkov counteroffensive


What the fuck is this shit meme? I've been seeing it everywhere these days.

Unless they somehow managed to kill Stalin, he would have turned Moscou into another Stalingrad, one which the german army had no chance of winning without bleeding itself to death just the way it happened

If people on a Veeky Forums board can point out how difficult/impossible operation Barbarossa was how did the German high command not realise the whole operation was a stupid idea?

They thought the Soviets would crumple politically the way Russia did in WW1.

They would have had to leave an unprotected flank and a huge army in their rear, free to fuck their shit up (for instance, the already inadequate logistics their army depended on). Also, they really needed that oil. And, as some anons have stated, Moscow was Stalingrad on steroids and Germans have had enough problems with actual Stalingrad. Diverting divisions South was actually one of the few times Hitler actually had an idea that wasn't bad.

We have accurate intelligence of both sides, too.

They didn't have the internet back then.

Cause they were stupid.

WW1 memories and a collosal failure of the German intelligence - they thought Soviets had much fewer divisions than they actually did (it's actually pretty hilarious - they had officers on training in the Soviet Union not that long ago, yet they failed to interview them). They also made questionable choices, they were humans, after all.

They assumed Russia was still more like they were in WW1 and even with the numbers they probably assumed they could just mow them down with machineguns

>ukraine

Hindsight is 20/20
In the case of the USSR 19/17

naysayers were sacked

If the Nazis had gone for the oil fields first how would things have turned out?

Because they didn't have the information we have today. You should consider that these were generals who defeated Russia in WW1.