Someone explain the "Holocaust was self-defense" line of thinking to me

>had to be killed
You're making shit up at this point, most people on /pol/ don't believe all those Jews were killed and think it's a hoax.

>You're making shit up at this point, most people on /pol/ don't believe all those Jews were killed and think it's a hoax.

At least back when I was around (which admittedly was a few years ago and might be out of date) the main line was

>Sure, a few Jews died, but like, 100,000 tops, and it was justified.

In a total war, if a sector of the civilian population under your control poses any risk whatsoever to the war effort on the home front, then you concentrate that population to minimize that risk, even if you don't have the resources to keep them alive, which is frankly of secondary consideration to the risk they pose to the war effort, which is the absolute and primary concern of a country waging such a war.

Frankly there were plenty of wealthy middle class civilians on all sides who were basically content who still got strategically bombed or interned. The Allies concentrated their fair share of ethnic minorities during the war with the same justification. Not to mention that they killed 3 million Germans after the war was already over just because they posed a risk to the peace (not even to the war---to the peace).

But that last bit was in the original Red Cross report

>organized international boycotts against your country
I wonder why...

>Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently, no Jew can be a member of the race.
>The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore, we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens.
>Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
>c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned.
I mean, what's so bad about becoming second class citizens (or rather not-citizens)?

Oh so they were enemy aliens? OK. We've established that. In a war you try to minimize your enemy's ability to hurt you, say by locking them up, deporting them, or killing them. Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

They were only the enemies because of NSDAP ideology. Most Jews were German patriots. And it's not like the Poles of Russian weren't the enemies, but they weren't systematically exterminated.

>And it's not like the Poles of Russian weren't the enemies, but they weren't systematically exterminated.

The Nazis gave it a go at that. Especially where the Poles were concerned.

>Most Jews were German patriots
Source: your ass

>b-b-b-but they started it!

Question: Which came first? The Jewish chicken or the Nazi egg? Answer: It doesn't matter.

The question is irrelevant to the argument at hand. You're only offering a red herring because you can't address the actual argument.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Jewish_military_personnel_of_World_War_I

>An estimated 100,000 German Jewish military personnel served in the German Army during World War I, of whom 12,000 were killed in action. The Iron Cross was awarded to 18,000 German Jews during the war.[1]
In fact, from all minorities they were the most likely to volunteer.

>which came first
The Nazis.

>100 000 people fought for a country that had mandatory conscription

WOW! It's fucking nothing. Might as well say the Ukrainians were all Soviet patriots because they were forced into the Red Army.

>They were only the enemies because of NSDAP ideology.

So they were enemies. The exact source of that enmity became totally irrelevant to the mere fact of its existence the moment the war started.

Was World War 2 the kind of war where you treated your enemies with kid gloves and let them roam freely behind your lines?

Jews were already hated for their deeds centuries before Hitler was even born. Why does modern society pretend like anti-semitism only started with the nazis?

Not him, but I would source the Judenzählung of 1916; which demonstrated that a higher percentage of Jews than ethnic Germans served in the military, and 4/5 of them on the front lines.

Again not him, but that line of argument is a line of shit.

You know who also weren't ardent supporters of the Nazi regime at such a time when Nazi Germany was at war with half the world? The entire populations of

France
Belgium
The Netherlands
Norway
Denmark
Greece

And anywhere else the Germans invaded but didn't go wholesale rounding up the population and mass executions. The internment and genocide of the Jews of Europe had absolutely jack shit to do with wartime security, or it would have happened on a far, far wider scale, and not to just the population segments the Nazis considered untermenschen.

Out of 500 000 Jews living in Germany. That's a lot.

I'm pretty sure that Judaism is a bit older than 1920.

So I'm asking you again, why that wasn't the case with Poles or Russians? They were far more likely to attack you that the Jews.

No one said they weren't. But no other country persecuted them to this extent.

>Jews were already hated for their deeds

Yeah, like blood libel! Jews are just SO EVIL that they murder Christian babies to bake their passover matza, despite it being against their dietary laws in like 5 separate ways.

You're embarrassing yourself

>Not to mention that they killed 3 million Germans after the war was already over
Is this the new 250 million died in Dresden!?

The Germans did inter large numbers of people they identified as particular threats in all of those countries. They simply identified Jews, communists, partisans, foreign military agents, etc as particularly threatening to their war effort. Theoretically they could have concentrated the entire populations of these countries, like the British did with Boers when they invented the way to combat guerillas, but I imagine they didn't see that as strategically necessary or logistically worthwhile.

It would seem that Hitler was primarily concerned with German nationalism. He probably didn't give two shits about any of those countries you listed, because he thought the German people were the purest of the pure , especially since they were self-actualizing themselves.

Just a theory. Plus you act like Hitler could actually commit mass genocide in countries that were actively at war with Germany.

Oh no, embarrassment on /his! What are you, a woman?

In what way Jewish children were a bigger threat than adult Polish men?

More like communist revolutions that started all over Europe with Jews leading them and red terror following.

>So I'm asking you again, why that wasn't the case with Poles or Russians? They were far more likely to attack you that the Jews.
I posit that the Nazis concentrated large numbers of Poles and Russians. I imagine that when they rolled into a village they did a threat assessment that took into consideration things such as political and ethnic affiliations.

>The Germans did inter large numbers of people they identified as particular threats in all of those countries.

Pic related. You stated, in post quite a few statements of fact, many of which are inaccurate, or at least which you haven't proven concerning Jewish sabotage to German interests, as a justification for wholesale internment of a population.

But even if every single one of those allegations was true, they didn't form nearly as much as an existential threat as say, France, which put up an army, literally millions strong, to violently overthrow the Nazi regime if they could. (they couldn't).

By your 'logic', the Germans should have interned the entire french population. They were after all, a far, far greater security risk. They did not. Ergo, the internment and execution was not done for purposes of security. Nor, in your post here do you make a decent justification for mass execution, because guess what? Jews were, by and large, already interned. Ever hear of the ghettos that got liquidated? They weren't free to run around and commit whatever imaginary acts of sabotage you think they were up to, they were already under pretty close watch. But of course, that wasn't enough, so into the ovens they go. What "security interest" was accomplished by that?

>They simply identified Jews, communists, partisans, foreign military agents, etc as particularly threatening to their war effort.

So either they were incredibly bad at threat assessment (possible, given their general incompetence), or, and you might want to read this one closely, they used the excuse of "wartime necessity" to give themselves a pretext to go on a murder spree.

>I imagine that when they rolled into a village
When they rolled into a village they usually searched all the homes for Jews and then killed them. This is how it looked like in the East. And this is how Einsatzgruppen worked.

Out of pure curiosity, do you think that any European gentiles at all practiced folk religion in the Medieval era?

>Just a theory. Plus you act like Hitler could actually commit mass genocide in countries that were actively at war with Germany.

Given that the vast majority of the Jews killed were from Poland and the USSR, which you know, were occupied by Germany, I think it's a pretty good assessment.

Funny then, that the first successful communist revolution was sponsored by Germany.

Probably. I haven't done any particular study into the phenomenon, but I imagine there must be a few holdouts somewhere over a region as vast as Europe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–50)
>The current official position of the German government is that the death toll resulting from the flight and expulsions ranged from 2 to 2.5 million civilians.[8][9][10]

I added the ~1 million German POWs who starved to death in camps after the war to that number.

I'm pretty sure the Nazis killed plenty of little Polish boys as well if it makes you feel better.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_reaction_in_Poland
This happened more than 60 years after Christianization of Poland.

>resulting from the flight and expulsions ranged from 2 to 2.5 million civilians
Most of them weren't deliberately killed.

>I added the ~1 million German POWs who starved to death in camps after the war to that number.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses
>U.S. and German sources estimate the number of German POWs who died in captivity at between 56,000 and 78,000, or about one percent of all German prisoners, which is roughly the same as the percentage of American POWs who died in German captivity.[90] The book Other Losses alleged 1.5 million prisoners were missing and estimated that up to 500,000 of these were in Soviet camps. When the KGB opened its archives in the 1990s, 356,687 German soldiers and 93,900 civilians previously recorded as missing were found to be listed in the Bulanov report as dying in the Soviet camps.[91]
No one takes seriously this number.

The Jews were their enemies and they dealt with them in the manner they thought was best. I personally agree with you and believe that the Nazis acted excessively, but that is again irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The rules of war aren't based on morality. If you expect wars to be fought morally you're in the wrong line of inquiry.

In other words they did a threat assessment and killed the people they identified as threats.

And so you think it's impossible for Jews to likewise practice folk religion why exactly?

For example this happened in Breslau.

>On August 24th the city was declared a closed stronghold - ‘Festung Breslau’ - and the citizens braced themselves for the inevitable bloodbath that was to come. Silesian Gauleiter Karl Hanke was appointed commander, and set about the daunting task of turning a picture-book city into a fortress.
>As countdown to the impending siege began, Hanke noted he only had two tanks at his disposal, and weaponry that was either outdated or captured from previous campaigns in Poland, Russia and Yugoslavia. Even so, Hanke stubbornly REFUSED to order an evacuation of civilians until January 19, 1945. By this time the majority of transport links had been smashed by Soviet shelling, forcing many evacuees to leave the city on foot. With temperatures sinking to -15˚C, an estimated 100,000 people froze to death during this ill-fated evacuation, with other reports of children trampled to death in the chaos that ensued at the train station.

>first successful
Why do only succesful ones count?

Germany (Luxemburg, Eisner, Levine, Radek)
Hungary (Kun, Lukacs, Szamuely)
South Africa (Green)
Russia (Lenin, Trotsky, Kamenev, Zinoviev)

So that adds up to what 0.6 million POWs killed instead of 1 million? I went off the top of my head and rounded. Did you notice the ~? That means about.

Did you know that 6 million is also a round number?

>Germany (Luxemburg, Eisner, Levine, Radek)
That's a small part of a bigger movement that started in late 1918. There wasn't an empire anymore when the communist revolt started.

Does this make them magically not Jewish?

Their ethnicity has nothing to do with anything. They were communists, there were also non-Jewish communists like Liebknecht who was the other leader of the Spartacists.

>Someone explain the "millions of Jews who would have been partisans" line of thinking to me

Done

>their ethnicity has nothing to do with anything
Top lel.

>Liebknecht
His mother was likely a Jewess but this isn't definitely proven, so you cannot really be certain of his jewishness or non-jewishness.

>top lel
And yet only the Nazis persecuted them to this extent. Couldn't they, I don't know, ban the communist party? Like it was done in other countries?

Again, a lot of Jews served in German military during the WW1. Some of them were incredibly important to the war effort.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber
Nazis were just paranoid psychopaths. There is no excuse for what they did.

>only the Nazis
What are pogroms in Russia
What are the pogroms during the Black Death
What are the Spanish massacres of 14th and 15th century
What were the numerous expulsions all over Europe

And if you mean the fact the Germans gassed them, well it probably has to do something with the invention of gas chambers. I'm sure the Spanish or the Russians would've utilized them too if they had the technology.

>le nazis holocaust psychopaths
>posts a wiki article of a Jew
Really makes you hmmm

He said to that extent you quote cutting weasel.

>How will i undermine this nation at war?
>I KNOW! I'LL DEVELOP ADVANCES IN THEIR MILITARY!
Fucking brill mate.

>Jew invents chemical gas warfare that kill thousands of people
>Jews get gassed
Poetic justice lmao

>Retard talks about how his is the master race and can be beaten by no other
>Dies by his own hand in utter fear of the inferior races
lmao

Nah, m8, Hitler was a retard. You don't have to love Hitler in order to hate Jews, you know.

Good point, but i don't think i made a very big logical leap that someone who didn't like jews in a holocaust thread liked hitler.

Fair enough.

>le nazis holocaust psychopaths
>ridiculous ideology
>pathological hatred of Jews
>some connection to bizarre occult societies
>gangster-like methods to achieve full power (SA, Night of the Long Knives)
>made up of failures, neopagans, idiots and literal psychopaths (Heydrich)
>literally not a single original idea, just vulgarized and simplified ideas of the conservative right
>could only achieve power because of the great crisis
NSDAP was a mistake of history.

>muh six gorrillion

Fuck off, the Holocaust didnt happen

>Nazism was a neopagan movement just because a tiny handful of nazis were neopagan
>Bolshevism wasn't a Jewish movement even though most of the upper echelon bolsheviks were Jews

HMMMMM

debunkingdenialism.com/2013/09/14/the-intellectually-barren-wasteland-of-holocaust-denial/

Imagine how much more advanced Europe would be if the Jews - superior ethnicity, overshadowed the natives wherever they went, weren't genocided by literal barbarians.

They killed Evropa's elite.

I didn't say it was a neopagan movement. But it was heavily influenced by neopaganism, ariosophy and similar silly shit.

It wasn't really. Hitler himself firmly rejected it as total horseshit, only a few autists like Himmler and Hess bought into it.

The Thule society / theosophy / occult shit is a meme pushed by pulp entertainment media because it sounds arcane and cool, but it was extremely marginal.

hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab3-german-documents-ovens/

>superior ethnicity
>dwells in rat infested shithole ghettos
>most of them live in abject poverty except a select few who got rich thanks to usury

Some superiority.

All were lawyers, doctors, businessman, much more educated than the average German. Today they are overrepresented in top position, science, nobel prizes - everything.

Really makes sense, since later we found out their IQs are about a standard deviation more than that of Germans and whites in general.

I guess thousands of years of selection for intelligence does help.

>only a few autists
>Himmler
You mean one of the most powerful man in the country? This is not just "some" autist.
SS was ran as some sort of cult and it's irrelevant if Hitler himself believed in it or not. We are talking about the reality.

Hitler himself was a very boring man. He was slightly more down to Earth than other Nazis. He still wanted to establish a new world order, colonize the East and build Welthauptstadt Germania.

This alone makes him pretty crazy.

We also have him on tape talking about the extermination of the Jews, where he says everybody knew what was happening and it wasn't 'relocation'.

>all were lawyers, doctors
Top lel, big fucking no. Most of them were poor as fuck and with just a basic education. And Jews in Eastern Europe were even worse off, a lot of them were functionally illiterate and inbred, they were commonly ravaged by fucking cholera and other poor people's diseases in their secluded ghettos. When they started arriving in America they were seen like the spics or the Syrian refugees are seen now because they were largely uneducated and penniless.

The notion about Jews being overrepresented in elite circles and all of them being noble nuclear physicists and lawyers is a meme that is very modern and very American/British. Until rather recently they were mostly VERY poor laborers and those few rich ones were rich thanks to crime (prostitution, drugs, porn, extortion, human trafficking gambling, unions etc).

Really on par with Sicilians or Arabs.

If you also break IQ scores down by religious denomination instead of just by ethnicity, Catholics and Anglicans outscore Jews by a few points on average.

That speech is somewhat open to interpretation and shouldn't be taken as a smoking gun.

>is somewhat open to interpretation
It's not.

Have you had a chance to look over the Pizzagate emails yet? What do you think?

>Catholics and Anglicans outscore Jews by a few points on average.
Gays have an average of 110. Gays are not an ethnicity or a genetic group of people. Neither are catholics and Anglicans - not that they actually outscore the Jews.

That speech is open to interpretation only if you want it to mean the opposite of what he says there. You probably want it really bad.
>Jewish intellectuals and creative professionals were among the leading figures in many areas of Weimar culture. German university faculties became universally open to Jewish scholars in 1918. Leading Jewish intellectuals on university faculties included physicist Albert Einstein; sociologists Karl Mannheim, Erich Fromm, Theodor Adorno, Max Horkheimer, and Herbert Marcuse; philosophers Ernst Cassirer and Edmund Husserl; political theorists Arthur Rosenberg and Gustav Meyer; and many others. Seventeen German citizens were awarded Nobel prizes during the Weimar Republic (1919–1933), five of whom were Jewish scientists.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

Not to mention Jews were actually at a disadvantage as a minority and still achieved so much more than the average German, as a population %.

ps

Asians.

>We fuck children.
I read that one too.
Thought it was open to some interpretation and shouldn't be taken as a smoking gun.

lol full SJW. Relax, Moishe.

>Jewish intellectuals existed = all Jews were intellectuals

It's like you're being retarded on purpose.

>he thinks that stuff is for the inmates
>laughinggirls.jpg

You know most modern prisons have parking lots. Do you think the inmates are driving around all day?

>Himmler
>Hessle

Oh, nobody important then.

...

>The rules of war aren't based on morality.

Except that the way the Nazis acted towards the Jews violated then extant rules of war. (As well as their actions towards other 'untermenschen' like Slavs). I mean fuck, this statement

>The Jews were their enemies and they dealt with them in the manner they thought was best.

In the very same post is incongruous with your argument.

Because then they wouldn't be Jews. A non-Jew who practiced a folk religion wouldn't be Christian either. They'd be practitioners of whatever religion it was there.

Why do you quote non-Jewish people as 'evidence' of a plot of worldwide Jewish communism?

>18000 people awarded the Iron Cross for bravery
>it's fucking nothing

NatSocs are delusional indeed.

...