How can God be all-loving if hell exists?

>Why should He?

Because he is described by your faith as all loving and possessing infinite forgiveness.

Except for the part where he won't even slightly forgive a completely arbitrary personal opinion that has nothing to do with living a good life.

Firstly God is perfect and holy. He cannot stand the sight of sin and since we are fallen we need a redeemer and that is Jesus. Hell was not created for humans but for the Angels who had disobeyed God. God wished for all to be saved but gradually the human race forgot him. In the Time after the flood the human race was repopulated with Noah's sons who went their way into the four corners of the earth. Gradually with each passing generation they formed the nations but with time they had forgotten the creator and began to worship idols. The redeemer Jesus was born from the line of David as was prophesied and is a light for the whole world.

>be Mike
>be born
>bully people in school
>steal your parent's shit for heroin money
>get a ho pregnant
>beat her
>beat your kids
>piss on your dad's grave
>beat homeless people randomly
>you're dying
>rush to church
>accept Jesus as your lord and repent for your sins
>welcome to heaven

>be user
>be born
>lead a good life
>help people out
>end up loved by a big family
>cancer strikes
>die in bed
>never prayed in your life
>go to hell

>Firstly God is perfect and holy.
It stands to reason any creation of a perfect creator should itself also be perfect.

>He cannot stand the sight of sin
Clearly he can, as he possess infinite power yet chooses not to use it to remove sin. It is clear and beyond your ability to refute that god can in fact stand the sight of sin, as he is perpetually surrounded by it, given the fact the he is omniscient and omnipresent in a universe seemingly full of sin.

>God wished for all to be saved
The wishes of an infinitely powerful being would reasonably always be fulfilled.

>In the Time after the flood
You are unreasonable and have the fantastical mind of a child. So it goes for all believers.

If God created everything and can't stand sin then why did he create sin or the means for people to sin?

one sinner chose to accept the free gift of salvation and the other did not.

Because he's testing you. Kinda of like a manipulative relationship.

>God is perfect
>He cannot stand the sight of sin and since we are fallen
>God is perfect but he fucked up making humans and decided not to fix it with his omnipotence.

Which is precisely why your inane belief is immoral and despicable.

Because you'd have to be really dumb to believe a 'gift of salvation' exists when looking at the situations in my post. So you'l have only dumb sinners getting into your heaven.

Even if it was proven right now that it's 100% true I still wouldn't pray and worship god's superiority complex and his twisted games.

I allowed your children to be raped and murdered, as a test meant for you to save yourself!

Not your children though, you didn't baptize them.

How do you ask for forgiveness of all your sins any way, you can't remember them all.. Does God also judge you on if you "mean it"? Does he turn you down if he judges that you aren't sincere in saying sorry for some small sin?

Nah mean if you knew for a fact god was real you'd eat shit and beg to get into heaven no matter how of a shithead he is.

God seems like a huge obnoxious faggot but fuck man I don't wanna go to hell if that shit's for real.

What goes on in heaven? Does everyone spend every moment hugging God?

Long as you aren't Catholic. Catholics go to he'll if they do stufd to avoid it. You're suppose to want to be a good person regardless.

Kinda the only part I agree with desu.

God's love feels like hellfire to sinners. God loves all men and wants every man to be saved and joyous, but the sinner rejects God by his own choice and suffers once he is faced with God due to his corrupt condition.

What a dumb religion.

>It stands to reason any creation of a perfect creator should itself also be perfect.
Stands to reason, bc YOU don't see the master plan, the test; you don't know what perfect truly is.

>Clearly he can, as he possess infinite power yet chooses not to use it to remove sin. It is clear and beyond your ability to refute that god can in fact stand the sight of sin, as he is perpetually surrounded by it, given the fact the he is omniscient and omnipresent in a universe seemingly full of sin.
yes. user used poor words. he does not tolerate sin, however.

>The wishes of an infinitely powerful being would reasonably always be fulfilled.
see above: tolerance. he's not going to absolve those who don't give a shit for him.

>You are unreasonable and have the fantastical mind of a child. So it goes for all believers.
I think so there are scholars who discover evidence that bear credence in the Bible's favor.

I'll leave with this, what is the purpose of this life on a per individual level, if not a test of faith?

>Be born
>Go to school
>Go to more school
>Get a job
>Pay bills
>Get married
>Travel
>Have kids
>Pay more bills
>Grow old
>Die and be forgotten in a few short generations.

Nah, that sounds pretty shitty.

God couldn't be all-loving without hell, evil must be punished, sinners deserve hell

Jesus died to save sinners, not make sinners able to save themselves

>14 billion years
lol fedoras and their sci fi

So what does the term, "Jesus died for our sins" mean?

Desu. Correct me if am wrong, but isn't god responsible for everything that was created in the universe?

It means Jesus died so I could sin, of course.

;^)

He died only for the elect, He did not die for anyone in hell. The "our" is the saved.
Define responsible

Are you saying God isn't all powerful enough to create the universe in 14 billion years if he wanted to and result into today's situation?

If you sin willfully there is no sacrifice for you

The universe is 6,000 years old

Easily. God made humanity like the Angels. Some angels are fallen, therefore they belong in Hell. Same with people. It stands to reasons if some people have angelic spirits, others have demonic spirits.

Well I'd say that's not up to you, now is it?

As in he created the sandbox and the conditions that the human has its limitation?

Like the emotion anger. I'm pretty sure if you gave me a crack team of CIA agents, I could basically black hood someone and trick them into killing someone with amphetamines and sleep deprivation.

I could probably turn you into a murderer if I had enough resources and time.

The same concept is here. Able had anger problems. God could have gave him tons of estrogen and he would have just been a cry baby instead of murdering his brother.

Does the Bible explicitly say the age of the universe or did people kind of just guess based off people's ages?

>all humans belong to one race

Someone played to many fantasy RPGs and now confuses race and specie

>did people kind of just guess based off people's ages
They did. They counted that God created the world in 6 days and then just added up the genealogy shit.

Not even mentioning that the Hebrew word "day" (יום) can be used in a general context meaning just a "period of time". Like even today when you say "back in my day" you don't mean day as a literal 24 hour period of time.

Therefore YECs are literally retarded.

God loves even those in hell. He does not condemn us, we condemn ourselves.

It's in the word of God

God hates those in hell, that's why they're in hell. Esau have I hated, and Jacob have I loved

Not very all loving then, is he?

That's a Christian thing.

Jews know just how much of a dick God can be.

We all love to see pieces of shit get what they deserve.

Hate is love

>that one guy who tries to argue that a just god wouldn't let murderers into heaven to mingle with his victims, despite the fact that his victims probably wouldn't give a shit once they're in heaven

youtu.be/tflSoyVL_jg

This is some serious edge, but I'll swallow my pride and reply.

Heaven means death after accepting God by definition. Hell is death after rejecting God. Catholics have the concept of purgatory as death after neither accepting nor rejecting God, or after a moral life despite rejecting God.

What you're assuming here is God is just sitting somewhere and says "Go to hell, asshole!" and somebody falls into a pit of lava. This isn't right.

I don't expect you to understand the finer points of this, you're probably gonna read it like some literal beaurocrat's handbook and argue it like that, but if you really are interested in learning there's plenty of readily available reading on the subject.

>Read the Bible

>This is some serious edge
>Gives the mainstream, conventional answer that people reject god, not the other way around

I really don't expect OP to understand or get anything out of reading the bible, he needs a higher level analysis.

And I really don't think it's mainstream to understand that heaven and hell aren't quite as physical as people make them out to be, yet exist just as much. What's mainstream is saying "wow heaven has gold roads and stuff that's really cool" or "heh hell is proof god isn't loving cause burning people and bats fly around them and stuff"

>be kid in bumfuck, 3rd world country
>masturbate and dont go to church
>otherwise live virtuous life
>suffer in pain and agony for all eternity
Wow god is awesome and perfect and infalliable

>And I really don't think it's mainstream to understand that heaven and hell aren't quite as physical as people make them out to be, yet exist just as much.
Wow, original and profound.

You're not trying to understand Christianity, you're just spouting one-sided bullshit that doesn't make an honest attempt to understand the issue you're mocking. I remember being like you in middle school, those were bad times.

You don't have much real world experience if you think the mass majority of white Christians who actually go to church aren't 100% literal. I'm not claiming I'm saying anything original, so fuck off.

Well does god allow heathens that have never heard the word of God to enter heaven?

No, they go to hell

Yeah, this is what I thought you would respond with. Something like a complete rejection of thought in favor of cut-and-paste atheist "logic" arguments. I'm not going to try and argue with you because you already have your answer. It sounds to me like you're looking for questions to apply it to.

You will never be a smart person until you're skeptical of your own knowledge and answers and attempt to understand issues instead of trying to maintain your current opinions.

Even though I feel like this isn't gonna get through to you, I have to right it because I was exactly like you when I was in secondary school.

Ahh yes, "you just don't get this vague unknowable concept that I also do not know yet preach regardless, enjoy refuting this argument that I refuse to give you, heretic"

>you don't know what perfect truly is.
Yes I do know. Perfect is a human concept that only exists in the minds of humans. It's an arbitrary measurement of abstract concepts that only exists in reference. Though I wouldn't expect an intellectual and emotional infant to understand that.

>he does not tolerate sin, however.
What do you mean by tolerate? Your cryptic reference about a "master plan" implies the existence of sin suits whatever unknowable purpose. If an infinitely powerful being did not tolerate something, that something would not exist.

>see above: tolerance. he's not going to absolve those who don't give a shit for him.
An infinitely loving being would by most measures of love forgive anyone for anything without even one single exception. Love is forgiveness by most standards. "you don't love me, so burn for eternity" doesn't sound like infinite love.

>I think so there are scholars who discover evidence that bear credence in the Bible's favor.
I found jesus in my toast. Scholars are not infallible.

>what is the purpose of this life on a per individual level, if not a test of faith?
There is no purpose; life is chance. I personally find it utterly disgusting that you believe children are raped and murdered as a test of your personal faith. In my opinion you are an evil, contemptuous person.

>Nah, that sounds pretty shitty.
And there is the crux of your faith. It simply appeals to you.
Nothing more.

>God couldn't be all-loving without hell
This is the most absurd idea possible, but one that is perfectly human.

Salvation is through Christ only and it's theoretically possible to accept Christ unknowingly.

He asked you the most straightforward by the books question possible why are you being such an insufferable cunt about this?

Literally all you have to do is quote scripture.

What is so wrong about not loving jesus?

And spitting in someone's face merits eternal torture?

So licking butt to something invisible is more important than not hurting your fellow humans, even trumping murder.

No wonder priests and preachers tend to be so full of shit.

Underrated post.

No wonder the love of a god from some bumfuck nowhere shepherd tribes would feel like shit to me, and that's one of the reasons I don't want it.

> what is the purpose of this life?

Your existential angst isn't a basis for anything outside of your own behavior.

God both decides what is evil and punishes you for it, while also demanding that you praise him

that's called EXTORTION

>I made you, if you don't worship me and suck my dick I'm going to throw you in some place called hell where the most powerful angel is that hates me
Genious plan there god. If hell exists every human that goes there is most likely recruited into Satans army to eventually invade Heaven again.

Who said God was all-loving
As far as the Bible shows, He seems to be pretty conditional in His love for creation. An all-loving God is a meme Catholics made for proselytization and/or to make themselves feel fuzzy and warm and shit

A toast to this!

Your misunderstanding of Christianity was already addressed in the previous posts of this thread, fedoras.

I might be wrong, but didn't for the church for the most part of history that hell is a place of eternal torture?

He's not all loving though he's all everything and that includes hell

The torment is self-imposed. This is what the Church Fathers taught.

>Addressed
>"Hurr durr god is perfect and omnipotent so he made imperfect beings knowing that they'd go to hell"
>"Free will exists even though god knows what you're going to anyway lol"

“God is day and night, winter and summer, war and peace, surfeit and hunger” (36). “Good and bad are the same; goodness and badness are one” (57-8); “life and death are the same; so are waking and sleeping, youth and age” (78). All these contraries are stages in a fluctuating movement, moments of the ever-changing Fire; each member in an opposing pair is necessary to the meaning and existence of the other; reality is the tension and interplay, the alternation and exchange, the unity and harmony, of opposites. “They understand not how that which is at variance with itself agrees with itself. There sits attunement of opposite tensions, like that of the bow and the harp” (45). As the tension of the string, loosened or drawn taut, creates the harmony of vibrations called music or a note, so the alternation and strife of opposites creates the essence and meaning and harmony of life and change. In the struggle of organism with organism, of man with man, of man with woman, of generation with generation, of class with class, of nation with nation, of idea with idea, of creed with creed, the warring opposites are the warp and woof on the loom of life, working at cross-purposes to produce the unseen unity and hidden concord of the whole. “From things that differ comes the fairest attunement” (46); any lover will understand.

Heracleitus had the answer a couple hundred years before Christianity was even a thing.

So then someone in hell should be capable of escaping hell through contrition to god.

The usual response to this is "those in hell are incapable of expressing contrition" in which case hell is in fact not self imposed, just imposed.

Hell is eternal torture, but it's self imposed. It's not like little demons are poking people with pitchforks or anything. Think of it more like a natural force or a universal truth. Denying God for eternity is torture for eternity, where knowing God is eternal bliss.

oh ok
because what I heard of hell, it sure sounded like the souls were tortured by demons and had no way to escape the eternal agony

It's not an argument for "why he should" but pointing out the inconsistency between "all loving" and "infinite torture". If he doesn't love everyone always (as shone by his specifically designing a place for them to suffer forever) then he can't be "all loving"

how do you know it?
did bible science progress since the medieval times

'hell' is the state were all in, a state of separatednes

'heaven' is a state of union

The torment could be caused by regret, but that wouldn't necessarily result with salvation once the soul is already fully exposed to God because the soul remains unrighteous and sinful. A saved individual is saved and made righteous due to experiencing death while being a member of Christ's immortal body, the experience of death is an important part in the process of being saved (unless you're a living saint) and the other soul in hell was in a broken state and away from God while experiencing death. It matters whether regret comes before or after death.

Although, hell might be escapable and universal salvation is not a heretical belief. It's heretical to teach that as a dogma, but it is not heretical to hope that everyone will be saved eventually.

>souls were tortured by demons
Demons will suffer as well. And Satan doesn't rule hell and never will. There are misconceptions that originate from literature and movies.

Two questions then.

If I am a sinner, say a murder, no matter how great my sin, if I accept Jesus into my heart, can I get into heaven?

Also...

Do aborted babies go to hell or heaven?

Not that guy, but...
>If I am a sinner, say a murder, no matter how great my sin, if I accept Jesus into my heart, can I get into heaven?
Yes.
>Do aborted babies go to hell or heaven?
Heaven, I think.

if the fool made satan and all the angels, and only satan rebeled against the fool, what does that make the other angels?

So if I was ruler of the earth and aborted all the babies and sterilized the rest of humanity and then on my death bed I repented my sins, then does that mean I saved humanity while still getting to go to heaven?

Humanity is already saved, Christ did it. It's very questionable if you would genuinely have the capability to repent after doing something like that, especially if you spent such a long time sticking to a diabolical plan. Take note that, for salvation, it is necessary that God approaches with his grace, along with you wanting to approach God. But theoretically, if you truly repented, you'd be saved.

You might as well kill all Christians, matyrdom results in salvation as well, but you'd still be commiting a sin yourself.

how did christ save humanity? in what way?

My point is if all aborted babies go to heaven, then aren't you doing the right thing if you abort them because if they grow up to be an unrepentant sinner and you could have saved them through abortion, then aren't you responsible for their damnation.

I mean technically god is responsible for billions of miscarriages yearly anyways, so why give those dead babies a free pass when you could finish the process and abort the rest of humanity?

I mean if you repent after you are the last human on earth, then you still go to heaven.

And Humanities was a fucking mistake.

Even if you go to hell, then you would be known as the person who saved billions of souls and prayed for by those who would have gone to hell otherwise.

A BUNCH OF KEKS

Brilliant.

Whoa there. There's a filter that turns c u c k into k e k

No it filters cuck only when you type in all caps, which is something only retards do.

Fuck, that's hard to answer. There are dozens and dozens of salvation theories and I keep forgetting the details.

God/Christ became a man and defeated death through his resurrection. That is the central event in Christianity. Death is seen as the ultimate consequence of sin. Through grace, the Eucharist, other sacraments and the establishment of the Church, Christ gave man a way to become a part of his (Christ's) immortal body, the body that has defeated death. By entering into a mystical union with Christ, we are made members of this body which gives us immortality. We are not saved and made righteous by our own doing, but by joining with Christ.

>then aren't you doing the right thing
No, you're still killing babies which is contrary to God's will, just like an ISIS terrorist isn't doing a right thing when he's chopping off heads of Christians.
>god is responsible for billions of miscarriages
Death is considered unnatural in Christian theology. Death, evil and sin are closely connected concepts. Man is held responsible for the entire world and by the fall of men, the rest of the world fell into corruption as well. The current physical world is corrupt and imperfect and it is to due man's sin.