Wtf I hate medieval times now

I didn't ask why the UNARMORED guy is halfswording. That makes sense and demonstrates what it is supposed to demonstrate. But why would you want to demonstrate an armored man halfswording when fighting an unarmored man? What would be the point of an armored man using that technique against an unarmored man?

what the fuck are you even on about? knights are trained since they are small children, they never pick up a plow or a rake in their life, their arm has only ever known the sword. They're specialized killers that do nothing but kill, and they'd be the equal skill wise to any warrior on the planet at the time, probably besting virtually any other hand to hand combatant and being bested only by light cavalry(horse archers).

You might be retarded if you honestly believe that a knight isn't the master of his own martial arts.

To show how two people would fight each other with such techniques without murdering one of them on camera.

>every knight was an elite trained killer
>we only have a handful of manuals, almost all in German, and entirely from the tail end of the middle ages, actually explaining how to do these techniques
>and other, earlier literature and artwork doesn't seem to show these same martial arts techniques being used

>What would be the point of an armored man using that technique against an unarmored man?
None, you'd fight with full length sword and likely try to get him with a couple quick thrusts, if he hits back, who cares. But likely they didn't have the cash for two full sets of plate at the time.
>shits

>he thinks that a proud warrior CLASS in society that does nothing but train and practice their ENTIRE LIVES is somehow not going to be extremely skilled at their craft

are you actually retarded?

Knights and most men-at-arms would be familiar with and trained in half swording, which was an extension of regular fencing with polearm fencing and wrestling added into it, skills that were also fundamental in their combat training.

That will undoubtedly be the case. Or they fucked around for so long there wasn't time for both to arm up before the light runs out or the venue kicks them out. Or the director thought it looked cooler for him to not be in armour. Or...

There's being good at fighting and there's knowing THESE specific moves and techniques that only turn up in a specific time and place.

Its an intersesting question how close the manuals are to knights fighting. My understanding is most of the people teaching were teaching city dwellers

There are depictions these techniques outside of the manuals too. But ultimately half swording is nothing special. It's the natural conclusion of what any man trained to fight with sword, spear and wrestling would come to when he had to face an enemy in full plate armor.

How common are they thought? Not just half swording, but the full range of HEMA moves and techniques?

Those techniques you see, or lets say at least the manuals they derive from where generally addressed to townsfolk. Those had to defend their city, serve in the militia and have arms. Also swordsmanship and other contact sports where a favorite past time. Resident sword schools where in the bigger cities and wandering swordmasters (certified by the sword guild) where holding schools in smaller towns, such a "Fechtschule" was a mix between training, tournament and outright brawl.
The manuals we have today is mostly from those schools and masters to advocate their skill and make a living.

Knights, noble persons and the like where educated differently, likely they where trained to fight at an early age either by their family-members themselves or employed masters of arms ( so called Schirmeister) to do just that. Hunting with all kind of weapons usually was part of the training. Since this training was rarely codified we know a good bit less about their swordsmanship.

>How common are they thought? Not just half swording, but the full range of HEMA moves and techniques?

You fucking realize HEMA is all about studying historical manuals and reenacting them at the best?

Each knight was a noble, each noble was trained by a swordmaster, each sword master had it's own technique but halfswording is a common basic they all had to fight opponents in plate armor when wielding a twohanded sword.

Here is the relevant part of the documentary:
youtube.com/watch?v=vi757-7XD94

And apparently that is described in a historical manual exactly like that: Unarmored vs. armored, both fighters halfswording. And they are trying to demonstrate it here.

Maybe, just maybe, those who wrote these manuals had retarded moments too? I mean there's that infamous pommel throw, or in Agrippa's rapier manual there's the one move where the fencer deliberately faces away from the opponent.

There is a fair deal of sources for armored combat, most sources usually consist of wrestling techniques with the sword, and other halfswording. The rest usually is armored throws and takedowns and ground fighting techniques.

Christ dude, who pissed in your cheerios?

Impotent passive aggression aside, that still doesn't answer the question. How much do those techniques described in the manuals, actually match in to the reality of medieval warfare.

gave a much better answer without acting like a pissy 8 year old.

>but the full range of HEMA moves
Theres a bit of a problem, HEMA is everything from the earliest manual in the late 13th century up to WW1 bayonet fighting. theres thousands of sources.
Those techniques where common for the era of plate armor, so gothic to early modern.

I know the exact details of their prowess is unknown but that doesn't mean they didn't have their own martial arts anyway, it was probably kept as an inside trade secret of the knight class and they didn't want peasants to learn their techniques and become a threat to both their own security and that of their class's place in society. It's no surprise then that as soon as gunpowder entered the picture and a skilled knight died just as easily to a musket as a peasant, that the necessity of a warrior class was lost. Knights likely feared this and jealously horded their techniques like a sports coach secrets his plays so the other team doesn't know what he's gonna do. That combined with the fact that they rarely write down anything other than religious stuff in the medieval era, and the most likely scenario is fully fleshed out martial arts schools, different from region to region but they had to be teaching those knights SOMETHING.

What are you even trying to say here?

Half-swording isn't exactly a complex hidden secret. You have a sword and you're wearing a glove that'll let you hold it without cutting yourself and you need to slit up some guys. That's the same on any battlefield.

People were apprenticed to others for training. Not everyone sat down and wrote their fighting manuals out, but they would have had their own styles and ideas.

Does it not count as being an elite swordsman if you don't call your attacks like in anime?

I meant sources outside of HEMA manuals. All the manuscript art I've seen, Maciejowski bible, Beauchamp Pageants etc seem to just show people chopping at each other.

I'm not talking about just half swording, I'm talking about all the techniques used. It's not a complex hidden secret, but they had to be taught and written down in manuals and have only been trueky rediscovered in the last few decades?

Stuff like pic related. Move your body like this, position your feet like this, hold the sword this way and attack this way. How much of THAT was common place and how much was restricted to students of a particular set of German schools in the 15th century?

>actually match in to the reality of medieval warfare.
Sword on Sword combat in full plate in actuall warfare is uncommon and a last gap measure. However, sword gainst plate in Judicial Duel or on other occasions did happen frequently, and for that there is those manuals and halfswording and armored wrestling.
Knights in armor bashing away look cool and hence they are prominent in movies and fiction. However they where a minority during a small time window, so overall those techniques are not that important in the greater picture of Swordsmanship.
But there is some sweet disarmaments and takedowns, I still recommend to train them for that.

A picture that isn't for ants may be helpful.

Actually, they often hired commoners who distinguished them selfs as fighters. If higher nobility they often knighted them. The Schirmeister post to a high lord was the best postition you could get as a professional fighter, often you where knighted for this. The HR Emperor hired a jew, Master Ott because he was so good at wrestling.
The knight as a warrior class died long before the gunpowder, massive infantery tactics such as the Swiss used did that. The full plate, which was more often worn by commoners than by knights survived a bit longer. Also pragmatic writing (everything but religious stuff) was quite common during the high and late medieval, it is just that it did not survive the times as good as the religious scriptures.
And the techniques and schools where transnational, like a German school for the whole HRE and parts of eastern Europe and Italian School for Italy and parts of France.

Well, if you look at full out battle pictures, it is unlikely that this combo shows up. It takes a ritualized setting like a duel, judicial combat or champions fight.

...

What is this shit and why is it so funny

But they wouldn't fight each other like that. That's the point.

i fucking love those videos

the problem is that as the times changed, the old teachings became obsolete and gradually rejected. nobody really bothered to preserve them, and in fact, would often make fun of them (its where the idea of knight swords being "heavy" and "slow" come from: Renaissance rapier users making shit up)

It's from a History Channel documentary, in this segment the two guys agree to demonstrate half-swording. Clements (the guy in the red gambeson), is showing how someone who isn't wearing armor /might/ be able to defend against someone who is.

Remarkably, despite it looking completely retarded and Clements being generally retarded, he actually hit the other guy in the head without holding back. Which actually caused him to vomit and gave him a concussion. It also left a decent dent in the helmet he was wearing.

>judo take down
>yep, thats how ancients fought with swords

>he actually hit the other guy in the head without holding back. Which actually caused him to vomit and gave him a concussion. It also left a decent dent in the helmet he was wearing.
>Clements being generally retarded
First part proving the second, who the hell is hitting full force a partner who can't fight back for fear of seriously injuring his training partner exactly? Clements felt just like a major douche in this segment especially, which doesn't help his general reputation.

Why isn't he wearing padding under the helmet?

that dude is such a fucking weird tool on every show he appears on

especially annoying in all those ulfberht specials a few years back

...

Source on that work.

Reverse search only yields Veeky Forums shit with no source.

Completely untrue.

One of the earliest depictions of the half-sword stance is actually from an illumination of Froissart's Chronicles and shows the King of France doing it during the Battle of Poitiers. The illumination is dated to the first half of the 15th century.

And why didn't we see it before? Likely because these techniques weren't used before. They are a late-medieval / Renaissance thing that came up when plate armour defence made people immune to most cutting and percussive damage.

De Arte Athletica, by Paul Hector Mair.

It's mostly based on older manuscripts though, e.g. you can find sections that were directly copied from the Codex Wallerstein. Mair is very nice to look at though. It's easily one of the most elaborate manuals in terms of artwork.

The Pic is from Mair, Paul Hector: De arte athletica II (218r), the technique is widely known in historic wrestling and was also shown as armored wrestling technique in the Codex Wallerstein (94r, pic related)
is also shown in the Codex Wallerstein

Lots of sections are also very underrated, e.g. the sections on tournaments.

Here we see what was called a "Pfannenrennen" (literally "pan race"). A variant of the joust of war where the two participants competed with sharp war tips (opposed to the jousting crowns used in the joust of peace) and their only defence was a metal pan reinforced with a thick piece of wood underneath. The goal was to dismount the opponent.

As it is easy to guess: this was a very dangerous discipline and much more of a test of courage than a competition - even more so than it was already the case in the regular joust. Both participants also seem to be crowned as victors. The participants actually had to bring their own coffins if they wanted to compete, that were placed next to the race track.

Fun fact, Paulus Hector Mair was a swordsmanship and martial arts aficionado from Augsburg, HRE. He loved the martial arts so much that he started to produce books with all known techniques, collected from various codices and masters. he hired professional fighters to demonstrate the techniques, artists to paint them and then had expensive volumes printed.
To do so he embezzled funds in his job as a city treasurer, and as a result was hanged in 1579 at the age of 62 as a thief.
So much for dedication to HEMA!

Worth it. That coloring is on point.

Fuck you weren't kidding with the pommel throw

God bless the people who can read illuminated manuscripts, because I sure as fuck couldn't.

Couldn't he just back him into a corner and pounce him?

>And why didn't we see it before? Likely because these techniques weren't used before. They are a late-medieval / Renaissance thing that came up when plate armour defence made people immune to most cutting and percussive damage.
Also, shields would be more predominant before the 100 years war, and you can't really halfsword with a heater shield strapped around your arm. Halfswording pre-type XV single-handed arming sword isn't exactly the way to go as well, it's better done with any sort of types XV and XVI.

Techniques rise out of need and practicality and before the XVth century, the regular knightly kit wasn't really halfswording friendly.

>its where the idea of knight swords being "heavy" and "slow" come from: Renaissance rapier users making shit up
You mean second half of the 19th century... Renaissance was the heyday of the heaviest plate armors there was. Most rapiers users would use such heavy armor once they went on the battlefield.

Reality:
> Guy in armor advance, walking
> Retard with half-sword tries to stab the armor guy in a weak point, fail or only graze him because chainmail
> Guy in armor does a large swing and opens retard in half.

And they wonder why english knights sucked on land.

>I tell my students who have to fight at the barrier that fighting at the barrier is significantly less dangerous than fighting with live swords wearing only padded jackets, because when you fight with sharp swords, if you fail to cover one single strike you will likely die.
>On the other hand, if you fight at the barrier and are well armored, you can take a lot of hits, but you can still win the fight. And here is another fact: at the barrier it is rare that anyone dies from being hit. So as far as I am concerned, and as I explained above, I would rather fight three times at the barrier than one time in a duel with sharp swords.

This from Fiore, but in the Talhoffer ms that is most certainly used there, the image shows indeed an unarmored person going against an armored one but there is valid reasons to think that this is basically artistic license and that it's not the actual set-up, both should be armored but aren't depicted that way because fuck you Middle-Ages artists did whatever they wanted (and they want to show they can draw more than two guys in armor)!

good video but it is too fast for me to make out what is going on

In that video:

"And one such move would make an opponents armor almost irrelevant."

Lol, no.

Here's the full video just in case some people weren't aware.
youtube.com/watch?v=4GoQlvc_H3s

Thanks user!

bump

This very well might be the most retarded exchange I've ever fucking seen in my life.

youtube.com/watch?v=NIEQdo0fhfY

This is pretty neat, Historical African Martial Arts

If it doesn't have a source, it is not historical. So either LARP or just fooling around, choose one.

wtf I hate Polish sabre, shillelagh and cutlass now

cutlass has sources.

There are some surviving unbroken lineage of the usage of shillelagh iirc. And of course cutlass has many sources (just check the scholagladiatoria forum for those).

Just because it doesn't have clear sources (no you can't replicate hoplite fighting by looking at vases) doesn't mean it has no value or it isn't fun. You just got to be honest about what you actually do and realize that even if you come close to the real thing, you'll never know.

As one good martial artist said, if you are telling people that you are doing effective self-defense classes, the proof is in the training, if you are saying that you are doing historical swordsmanship, the proof isn't in how good you are, you could be a good swordsman you could still be in the wrong about what you do being historical.

>no source
>not historical
Deal with it, LARPer

You can't say it never happened.

Actually it happened real often, wrestling and takedowns are integral part of most European swordsmanship schools.

All of HEMA is reconstructionist to some degree. It's just with African weapons apart from the Kaskara you have a lot less to work with.

Polearms were prevalent since the bronze age.

Way to completely misread the whole thing, I'm not saying anything different than that.

>Kaskara
>no crocodile scabbard
Lost opportunity

Here's another take of the same sword.

What does Veeky Forums think of this guy?

Only american 14yo weebs claimed knights mindlessly hacked at each other.

Sometimes he is a bit enthusiastic.Other than that a nice guy.
What is annoying is that he is the only source your average mouth breather finds on the internet. So in threads about historic arms you often get his videos posted as the only truth, which can be quite frustrating if you actually are into the matter and have better sources.
He is not the problem, guys that post his videos are.
Also can sometimes be a snobbish cunt when it comes to UK HEMA, but thats a different story.

Hi guys, Matt Easton here, Scholagladiatoria

Recently I've got a lot of comments about [historical misconception]

First off, context

Secondly, while I have no proof that this did happen, I can't say for sure that it never happened

Cheers folks

Thank you for watching, please subscribe, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, support us on Patreon, Etsy, Myspace, Bebo, Google+ and Grindr

>Thank you for watching, please subscribe, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, support us on Patreon, Etsy, Myspace, Bebo, Google+ and Grindr
You forgot Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schola_Gladiatoria

Also no mentions of "Swordsmen of the British Empire", doesn't look like a good impersonation...

And then there is this madman.
youtube.com/watch?v=dMtQmb1t1vw

>Also can sometimes be a snobbish cunt when it comes to UK HEMA, but thats a different story.
Come on man, tell us more about it.

It is not relevant for Veeky Forums, in fact it is not relevant unless you do HEMA and are UK based. And if thats the case, you'll know and have your opinion anyways.

>implying half of the threads here are Veeky Forums relevant
Tell us man.