*blocks your path*

Oh hey, Gropey. I think this is the first time I've seen you outside Veeky Forums.

Honest question: how exactly should they be "controlling the fight and his weapon?" What techniques would be involved with that?

>I think this is the first time I've seen you outside Veeky Forums.
Huh... Weird.

Look at the above pic I posted.

The quillions of the parrying dagger or rapier. The Buckler. The shield. Either entrap, disengage or otherwise take his weapon off line and out of the fight, and then rush into him swinging, negating his reach and leverage.

You have a separate attack and defense. He has only the one tool for both jobs. He *Could* pommel, half sword etc, but you'll be in range with your shorter weapon before that, and he'll still be tangled up in with your offhand. Case in point, you are more likely to find guides to using a longsword to defeat the above than vice versa, because its a trained skill the requires good technique to beat.

There is no reason that a dagger/shield/buckler should ever lose to a longsword, unless they are meek and afraid (which they shouldn't be).

To be fair he is much better than them, He keeps the sword away from them until he attacks so they cant do that easily.

Cuts with swords like that generate alot of power and are not easy to stop, so he tactics really make good use of its size and length while avoiding the primary weakness

It looks to me like he's showing his dick size against people who don't know how to fight yet.

>Cuts with swords like that generate alot of power and are not easy to stop
Redirect and disengage the attack. I have had Ukrainians swinging a blunt greatsword at me with intent, and using a buckler against it was just as easy as parrying with a sword.

Also, he's barely generating power. Positive force at best, as they are training unarmoured. If he was to try to generate more force (unneeded in unarmoured fights), he would open himself too much.

...

Well they certainly dont know how to fight against that. Never used a buckler so I dont know, but with a sword parrying a full powered cut is easier said than done under duress. Perfectly doable but it takes some practice and skill and confidence

You dont need to generate alot of power with a weapon like that, any committed swing will generate more than sufficient force.

But the point is, they are NOT full powered swings. And a buckler is just a tiny shield. The shield blocks, the sword attacks. He has one sword for both jobs, you have two. Its not rocket science here.

because they weren't using one of these

ah yes, my favourite game
rock, paper, scissors, gun.

With sword and dagger like you see, with any combination its my experience that the most experienced person will win regardless of who is holding two weapons and who has one.

>the most experienced person will win regardless of who is holding two weapons

And water is wet, but having a secondary parrying option against a singular PoA. Consider it a force multiplier.

This video is very clearly the instructor showing off against untrained student.

The Zweihänder was actually made with the purpose to chop through the walls of poles, so this would be interesting.

The meme is pike poles not halberds, and that is still incorrect. Its a shock weapon that can disrupt the pike like and knock them out of the way, but you could have great difficulty chopping through a 1.25" diameter, cured hardwood pike shaft with a hatchet braced on a post, much less than a sword.

this shit meme as well as you need to die.

can a hema guy explain this picture to me?

The eight planes of attack. No matter at what height or level you throw a blow from, it will strike either horizontally, vertically or diagonally.

I figured it was something like that, Nakamura ryu has a similar concept

It's the Seven Swords of Fiore, they are the seven basic way to attack:
Two downward cuts (Fendenti) from dominant side and reverse side
Two upward cuts (Sotani) from both sides
Two middle cuts (Mezani) from both sides, reverse middle cut is the only one done with the false edge.
One thrust (Punte), here coming from below, but it can be done from the other angles as well.

Check this and look at the "Seven Swords" and "Sword in Two Hand" parts:
wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de'i_Liberi

It's indeed not unlike the Eight Strikes of Nakamura ryu, without the shomen basically.

Come at me fratello

This. It's about closing in and halting their movements. Striking at places to fuck his momentum and generally just being in spots where it's hard to do anything other than draw and push cuts. You have all the leverage, all the draw distance and all the control.

GG no RE

>without the shomen basically.

why no shomen?

bumping because I would really like an answer

I know exactly who this is because of his pants.

Yes, he is showing off against inferior opponents.

TEMERIA WILL BE FREE!

Can someone tell me how effective the webm strategy would be in a real battle.

I know very few people who could pull off something like that in a free for all, and those who can have years if not decades of experience

Personally I would never attempt to do it in anything bigger than a duel, and even in a duel I wouldn't want to try it

It just feels like even the situational awareness of knowing when to do that seems near impossible.

That awareness comes from having spent his entire life training to do this stuff, having been in battlefields and duels

The average amount of time that someone today in HEMA trains in a day is nowhere near the amount of time a professional soldier would train in a day, but that's simply because HEMA is just a hobby

Most historical swordsmen had duties or jobs beyond fighting with swords. Grappling with weapons is definitely something that can be taught to the average person, but it take some time and good training to learn. Most people just down stick around that long.

it also requires being both a good swordsman and a good grapplier. Both things the average guy can learn, but it would take alot more time and effort than most put in

Literally the first dude could have just moved to a side and hit him in the face

I had the exact same stuff coming in the HEMA general in /asp/ (iirc) so I'll try my best to remember what I've said. I'm not saying this is all true, it's my current understanding of the thing.

Shomen is typically a vertical cut given along your central line (shokusen) and which either deflect an opponent's cut (by coming after) and his own central line or cut his self by voiding and pushing your own line of strenght where he's weak (basically, passing and cutting while voiding the attack). It's usually thrown from jodan (the high guard, similar in use - but not in form - to Posta di Donna and Vom Tag) or anything that pass through jodan (like some forms of waki for instance).

According to the bolognese system of cuts (see) the vertical cut (fendente), because you are by definition either right-handed or left-handed is thrown always slightly to your right (mandritto) or left (roverso), it's never perfectly along the central line (and it shouldn't be). The reasoning is that according to the principles of rest/action (yin/yang), you should end an attack (an action / yang) into a guard (a rest / yin). In the bolognese system and most system really in HEMA, guards are typically either to the left or right, what isn't is a passing through guard. If you are coming from a side and wish to end in another side, you can't cut the central line, that's as simple as this.

When you contrast this with usual japanese swordsmanship, the jodan, chodan and seigan stances are ubiquitous and all positioned along the central line. You raise your sword into jodan and cut into chudan (kote, wrists) or seigan (men, head), you generally pass through jodan (depends on the style though).

The prevalence of jodan and chudan in japanese swordsmanship is the reason the shomen is the basic cut in training (doesn't mean it's always the good cut, but it's the base of the training). cont...

Cont...
Note that it's not always the case, Kashima Shin-ryu trains a lot of Kesa giri (it's the first kata), same for Yagyu Shingan-ryu and some styles like TSKSR have their own sort of version of shomen (maki-uchi) which does the same thing to the enemy but generates force differently.

In most HEMA styles (it's true for the Bolognese style and Fiore I think, don't know for KdF), because your starting position is to a side and you are going to the other side as you cut and thrust (in Bolognese, punta riversa should end in coda longa e stretta for instance), there is no room for a vertical cut (fiore have a linear downward thrust though). Fiore's fendenti looks very vertical (cutting from the teeth to the feet, which is either the left or right one), but they are still slightly angled (whereas a shomen cut from the top of the head to the solar plexus, so totally linear and vertical). If you start in posta di donna and end in dente di zenghiaro, even if you pass through posta longa or posta breve, your cut is diagonal and not linear and vertical, your cut is angled. In the bolognese fencing, the fendenti are pretty vertical, but they are to a side and not centered like a shomen is (that's why they are mandritto or roverso).

In the usual japanese style, it's your own body that moves from the left of your blade (jodan) to the right (gedan). Even if you strike a full cut (from highest to lowest), the line of the cut is perfectly vertical, it's your body that switched side (and voided the enemy's cut if done correctly) to accomodate and give room. The usage of switching side is the same as in HEMA (you protect yourself by retracting targets as you advance or retreat and your cuts both protects by parrying the lines of cutting or simply cut through the opponent), but the body mechanics are slightly different.

Mainly it has to do with starting and ending points (ie guards and how they are formed) and how the body is being moved around the sword.

And yet again, here's the video for the webm.
youtube.com/watch?v=4GoQlvc_H3s

Thanks

Something tells me this is a medieval meme or a translation/context error.
Like the equivalent of /k/ telling people to throw glocks because they explode.

Re-reading, there's a lot of little mistakes (Fiore's central thrust is upward obviously, not downward!).

Main point is still, in the japanese styles usually, you cut on a vertical line and your body move from the outside to the inside or vice versa. In a lot of early HEMA styles, typically, your body moves following your cuts which is the thing going from one side to the other, because they do, there isn't room for the use of shomen.

Also, it must be said that the shomen is a strange cut: it's great as a practice tool, but for combat it's strange as it attacks a strong part of the human body (the skull) and it would most likely meet a helmet. You can use a shomen going to chudan to strike the wrists, or like in Ono-ha Itto-ryu, a shomen that strikes the wrists when the enemy move into jodan (excellent use of a tempo according to Dall'Agocchie btw).
As Nakamura Taizaburo said, shomen isn't a good battlefield cut, kesa giri is better at that and still easy to teach (see "zornhau is a peasant's blow" "colpo di villano" in HEMA). Shomen is good to learn principles of positioning, that's why it's great as a learning tool while inside a kata. HEMA texts are mostly about practical use of the sword, that's why a diagonal downward cut is preferred as it's easier to protect yourself with them and easier to offend, but it's also true that it's harder to teach good positioning through them (your body follows the cut and you're done). Basically, I'd say it's just like why seiza is used in iaido, it's a foundation of training rather than a direct application. In HEMA texts, there isn't much of those types of training, it's more about a practical techniques, you don't learn to train people through them. Perhaps historical teachers had special stuff for actual training, but it's not crazy to think they wouldn't put them into the book, because typically, the book isn't to teach but to remember: the book is more useful to a student that it is to a teacher.

shomen isnt as empahsised in armored styles, but it came to dominate unarmored and especially sport fencing because it controls the center line while cutting. It can also easily target other things like the wrist or even the torso when done with a slight twist.