What?

???WHAT???

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translatio_imperii
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne#Imperium
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It's just German revisionists shitting up wikipedia to claim Charlemagne as theirs and try to give some prestige to the failure that was the HRE

the First >Holy >Roman >Emperor was Otto I
Charlemagne's empire was called "Frankish Empire"

>In his official charters, Charles preferred the style Karolus serenissimus Augustus a Deo coronatus magnus pacificus imperator Romanum gubernans imperium[73] ("Charles, most serene Augustus crowned by God, the great, peaceful emperor ruling the Roman empire") to the more direct Imperator Romanorum ("Emperor of the Romans").

Which one do you think Old Charlie would have regarded as his successor state:

-The powerful and magnificent France that raped the HRE for centuries and eventually put it to death before conquering Europe

-The pathetic and weak non-empire refered to as the >H >R >E that was so ridiculous even pseudo-philosophers mocked it

France was much weaker and more decentralized than the HRE in the 3-4 centuries following Charlemagne's death.

>Charlemagne's empire was called "Frankish Empire"
His title was holy roman emperor.

And yet...

Why are French such chauvinistic retards? It kills every debate.
Charlemagne took the title of Holy Roman Emperor, to signify his hegemony over Europe and the faith.

I remember reading in "The Barbarian West 400-1000" by Wallace-Hadrill that the first frankish emperor to actually define his realm as the "Holy Roman Empire" was Louis the Pious in his correspondence with some other guy, but it was certainly Otto I who made it official.

When Charlemagne took the title of Holly Roman Emperor, what was then his Empire called?

>anyone who shitposts about France's greatness is French

You should browse /int/, tard
Unlike Britain, France has admirers all over the world

He was King of the Franks and King of the Lombards, then simply Emperor of the Romans after being crowned by the pope.

Francia

Frankish Kingdom? Kingdom of Austrasia, Kingdom of Neustria and the rest?. Charlemagne being crowned Emperor did not mean that he redefined his lands as "Roman Empire", the importance lay with the title and office of Emperor, not with the idea of declaring his lands officially as an empire.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translatio_imperii

Did 'official' names for empires and so on even exist at this point in time?

>Charlemagne being crowned Emperor did not mean that he redefined his lands as "Roman Empire"
Thats exactly what he did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translatio_imperii

So? it says "On February 2 962, Otto I was solemnly crowned Holy Roman Emperor by Pope John XII", Charlemagne was crowned as Emperor, not as "Holy Roman Emperor" as no contemporary source names his title in that way.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne#Imperium

>"With Charlemagne's coronation, therefore, "the Roman Empire remained, so far as either of them [Charlemagne and Leo] were concerned, one and indivisible, with Charles as its Emperor", though there can have been "little doubt that the coronation, with all that it implied, would be furiously contested in Constantinople."[67]"

Im talking about primary sources, you're talking about historiography.

Charlemagne was crowned "Imperator Romanorum" by the pope and left not much doubt that he sees himself as the as the natural heir to the Roman empire and to dominion over Europe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne#Imperium

again, so? I dont see "Holy" in there.

>"so far as either of them [Charlemagne and Leo] were concerned, one and indivisible"

Thats funny because then Charles proceeded to divide this "indivisible" empire between his sons in typical frankish custom.

You're a fucking retard if you want to debate about semantics. Fact is, Charlemagne was the first to claim the Emperor title and the heritage of the Roman empire, said title and claim was then transfered to the eastern parts of the divided Frankish empire. The title and claim where in use by Frankish Monarchs for a long time before the HRE.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

And you're a retard for assuming that I'm dusputing the fact that Charles claimed the title of Emperor, I'm talking about the "HOLY" aspect of the title which Charlemagne did no use in any way of form. But I'm done anyways since I'm kinda tired right now, you're quoting wikipedia as a reliable source and we have just started calling each other names, so lets just pretend we've already reached the point of calling each other autists and cucks and be done with it.

Charlemagne never existed. He's a fictional character.

Wrong again, he explicitly claimed the title of defender of the faith an Emperor of the Christian empire. As said, only semantics are holding up your points, so good luck if you ever have to defend them in a thesis or such, because you'll get flunked.
Admit it, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

I'm pretty sure Otto did not refer to his empire as holy either.

You guys are all great! Made this shit post for fun. Didnt think I'd come this far.

The HRE of Otto I was not the same as that of Charlemagne. They just held the same title and ruled the same lands. There's about 150 years separating the reigns of the two men.

Irene of Athens was acting as regent for her son. When her son came of age and tried to seize power Irene had his eyes gouged out and had him killed. She declared herself Emperor.

The Latin church, while still not independent from the east, did not believe that a woman could hold the position of Emperor, the official head of the church. Nor did they believe they believe that a woman who had committed such a terrible crime deserved it.

The patriarch of the Latin church decided to make a power play, and granted himself the right to crown the Emperor. He then crowned Charlemange as Roman Emperor. Irene continued as Emperor in the east, and tried to arrange a marriage of herself with Charlemange, with the intention of clearing up doubts about her legitimacy, but she was killed by her court who would rather continue to ignore the Latins, and would not tolerate Latin barbarians anywhere near them.

From then on the title of Roman Emperor would stay in use in both the Latin west and Greek east, with a break of around 40 years before Otto the Great revived it.

The word Holy was not added to the title of Roman Emperor until the reign of Frederick Barbarossa in 1157.

You sound pretty educated, have you focused your studies on this subject for a while?

>and ruled the same lands

Not at all
The core of Charlemagne's Empire was France