God is an inevitably

Why do you think there is no cause for quantum fluctuations? Because it's convenient?

pray tell me what the cause is then? quantum physicist are sure there is no cause, but suppose we can't rule out the possibility of there being a cause. this still leaves us with phenomenon that we can't rule out the lack of a cause, which leaves us with the assumption of a caused universe not being a safe assumption

Well, if you don't believe in causality, you should probably look into Al-Ghazali, he might get you to a place where you can construct a philosophy capable of normal interactions again.

The standard model for particle physics contains nothing that would explain quantum fluctuations.

Now, obviously, the answer is probably more physics, but given that we do not have an answer, it's convenient indeed to just assume everything must have a cause for no reason other than to shoehorn your skydaddy into your worldview in some way.

God is the cause and whatever assumptions one chooses to make is ultimately an act of will not intellect.

If God exists, why does he have to be argued unto existence?

the universe is itself a thing

is it mere convenience to agree with experts in the field? I realize this is an appeal to authority, but this isn't my area of expertise. even if we can't rule out that it is caused that means we also can't rule out that it is uncaused.

He's the unfarted fart.

>but given that we do not have an answer, it's convenient indeed to just assume everything must have a cause
Uh, it's not just convenient, causality is one of the fundamental laws of the universe.

And what proof do you have for this without assuming that something having no cause is impossible? You can't say because something having no cause is "illogical" because you are also claiming that something is uncaused: God.

If god were the uncaused cause, then god's existence could causally attributed to the fact that not all causes require a cause

Proof? virtual particles popping in and out of existence in such a way that appears at the very least to be uncaused to experts in the field certainly puts this into doubt

>even if we can't rule out that it is caused that means we also can't rule out that it is uncaused
Isn't that exactly the same as the theist argument for God? If we're going to apply occams razor then we need to assume that there is a cause, because literally everything else in the universe follows the law of cause and effect.

Praise Him.

So you're saying that even if everything else in the universe works that way we can't assume that quantum fluctuations do as well. And this makes you different from a Jesusfag saying that just because we can explain physical phenomena scientifically doesn't mean we can rule out the existence of God how?

Look at it this way. No matter wich path of understanding you choose to follow. Be it Physics, Mathematics, religion, Philosophy, Logic, or any of the numerous ways of conceptualizing reality. You will INEVITABLY hit the wall of "I don't know," or "It's impossible to know. God is that underlying omnipresent thing that that is always outside of conceptual grasp, yet is also fundamentally required for reality to exist. Think of God as more of an ultimate force rather than a greybeard who sits in the clouds and watches you masterbate to little anime girls.

What physicists call "laws" is not a prescriptive term, but a descriptive term. These are terms applied to -apparent- universalities, and are in no way assumed to be the blanket truth in all cases. The second law of thermodynamics, for instance, we already know to be false given the fact that in an expanding universe photons lose energy, directly reducing the energy content of the universe.

Causality is in no way a "fundamental law of the universe" for the reason alone that we observe events with no observable cause. See virtual particles and nuclear fission.

Or, in short, [citation needed].

> And this makes you different from a Jesusfag
Jesusfag is making positive claims about things that are:
-historically ludicrous
-akin to thousands of other discredited myth
-have zero evidence

Holding out on whether quantum fluctuations are causal or not is almost nothing like this, except for the fact that both worldviews are constructed using language.

>god is "I don't know"

only at the macro level. quantum level interactions have always been seen to go against common sense. a chair can only be in one place, right? it's safe to assume that a light particle, like everything we know would only be able to be in one place, right? yet a single photon will still manage to make a wave pattern in a double slit experiment, as though it is interfering with itself, despite logically only being able to be in one place at one time. If something this simple is put into doubt I don't find causality to be much a leap, even for the entire universe. The early universe was more than small enough to fall under what we would call quantum level

It's a matter of faith and will obviously.

Theists had to find a way to make God real, since he doesn't really exist.

God is Jesus Christ.

Exactly

wew, God of the gaps becomes the gaps themselves

Who is the way, the truth and the light.

I agree, it is a matter of faith. Why dress it up as though it isn't then?

>He
Like I said. Stop thinking of "God" as a personified deity. Think of it as more of a force.

That was never my intention and I apologize if I misled you.

For example. What is energy?

It's stuff that's needed to move shit.

Sure god might exist but he's probably really a subtle concept and isn't like our Judeo-Christian understanding of him.

>without a cause

without *apparent* cause

to you, at least

>argued unto existence

stupid typo

>he thinks pointing at the sun is arguing it into existence

The only thing I will say is that if the universe is finite and has a beginning as we now believe then it is pretty much impossible to logic God into existence. The reason for this is any existence prior to the universe doesn't fallow the rule of this universe concepts like logic and time and place might not have had any meaning in a place like this. We have no phrase of reference for a place like this. So we can make no judgements about what was or wasn't possible.

This honestly does activate my almonds

Activated.

>So you're saying that even if everything else in the universe works that way we can't assume that quantum fluctuations do as well.
Literally yes. Quantum particles clearly work differently from everything else in the universe.

>-historically ludicrous
>-akin to thousands of other discredited myth
>-have zero evidence
But if you reject causality as necessary, none of these things matter.

>Spinoza.jpeg

What can we know about God other than that God is an uncaused cause?

Not much.

He has a mind or at least a will, and he is loving.

Why is so hard to simply admit "I don't know" but instead say "God did it"?

Not only is it a meaningless explanation but in my opinion it is hubris to limit the mysteries of existence in an anthropomorphic manner.

Causality is not necessarily a binary proposition. The level randomness we're talking about in quantum mechanics is on the extreme end of the micro scale. It's irrelevant to macro objects like humans and history.

I can see the former, but I have no idea where you get the idea that God HAS to be "loving", other than wishful thinking.

You could as well be a lab rat and never know it.

I'm not saying it's true, but "loving" isn't a necessary property for the creator of the universe. Mind and/or a will so there can be intent sure, but "loving" is not a necessary quality.

>You could as well be a lab rat and never know it.
But in order for that to be true, there would have to be things beyond God's knowing. Otherwise he'd know it already and have no need for a lab rat. In fact, first he'd have to conceive of time, before he could conceive of knowledge working in a linear development.

Similarly, it's frequently proposed that God could be bored, or spiteful. But these are emotions, and emotions are things that come into being in the universe. I've also heard it proposed that God might want to prove his power etc. etc.

The commonality of these proposals though, is that God lacks for something, and he needs the Universe to give it to him. But an Omnipotent, Omniscient Creator (sorry that I snuck those in there, I'm kind of sick but I can offer a rationale for those) doesn't need for anything, especially since need has to be
invented still! Which means, as it's first, primary act, the ontologically prior act to time, the First Cause must have acted entirely selflessly, for the benefit of others.

All this shit where idiots try to rationally argue God into existence just misses the point entirely. Faith in God must be just that - faith, not reason. Otherwise what you're doing is philosophical wanking, not worship. The gospels stress the importance of faith repeatedly, whether it aligns with reason or not. Thomas used reason and ended up doubting the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and he was rightly rebuked for it. Stop with this "hurr cosmological argument" bullshit, not only is it bad philosophy, but it misses the point of being Christian.

>But in order for that to be true, there would have to be things beyond God's knowing.
Like whether or not a worthless servile is christfag is deserving of heaven or hell without creating an earth for him to toil in?

>without a cause

Without deterministic cause is not that same as being without cause at all. Even in this case the particles still have a formal and an efficient cause. Actual material things by definition must have a cause, since they are always potentially another actuality (e.g. an acorn is potentially a fully grown tree, but that acorn was actualised by another tree, etc.). Ultimately (and even if the universe were infinitely old, or if there were multiple universes) there must be an immaterial cause, and this cause must only be actual.

Reason can incline someone towards faith. Faith and reason are not opposed.

But what if you don't consider it an "uncaused cause", but an "unknown cause?"

But you can see the sun, and you can feel the suns heat. You cannot "see" a God, nor can you physically "feel" a God.

The universe came into being.
Came into being != created.

Nope. There is no evidence for the existence of a creator; and no "we don't know what happened before the big bang" does not count as evidence.

>there is no evidence for the existence of a creator

says the guy who exists

Well, since causality isn't assumed, what evidence do you have about causality existing on a macro scale?

>sophistry
>...therefor my specific religion and mythology
>obey or I think you are evil

religitards

My existence is only proof that two people had sex at some point and didn't either prevent or terminate the pregnancy. That has no relevance to what happened before the big bang because physics and everything else we know about the physical universe does not apply before said big bang.

"I don't know" is not the same thing as "A deity or group of deities exist".

Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so.

Well that is that and this is this.
You tell me what you want and I'll tell you what you get.
You get away from me. You get away from me.
Collected my belongings and I left the jail.
Well thanks for the time, I needed to think a spell.
I had to think awhile. I had to think awhile.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

Well that is that and this is this.
You tell me what you want and I'll tell you what you get.
You get away from me. (You get away from me) You get away from me.
Collected my belongings and I left the jail.
Well thanks for the time, I needed to think a spell.
I had to think awhile. (I had to think awhile) I had to think awhile.

Well that is that and this is this.
Will you tell me what you saw and I'll tell you what you missed,
when the ocean met the sky. (You missed, you missed)
You missed when time and life shook hands and said goodbye. (You missed)
When the earth folded in on itself. (You missed)
And said "Good luck, for your sake I hope heaven and hell (You missed, you missed)
are really there, but I wouldn't hold my breath." (You missed, you missed)
You wasted life, why wouldn't you waste death? (You missed, you missed)
You wasted life, why wouldn't you waste death?

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
The more we move ahead the more we're stuck in rewind.
Well I don't mind. I don't mind. How the hell could I mind?

Predictable behavioral patterns of stuff. Many many kinds of stuff. I can predict a lot of stuff. I'm like a smart person.

On a more serious note, fuzzy objects (which is what, under quantum mechanics, literally everything is) are objects nonetheless and can be modeled as such. We're simply talking in terms of probabilities as opposed to certainties.

>actually believing this argument
>assuming it's your religion specifically

keep it in church and kill yourself

> can't explain something
> my imaginary friend did it
Religious belief is a mental disorder.

Well Jesus Christ was an only child
He went down to the river
And he drank and smiled

And his dad was oh-so-mad
Should have insured that planet
Before it crashed

Working real hard to make internet cash
Work your fingers to the bone sitting on your ass

I know now what I knew then
But I didn't know then what I know now

Penny found out as her hair was styled
Well you should hide you kids
While the dogs run wild

Jesus Christ was an only child
He went down to the river
And he drank and smiled
And his dad was oh-so-mad
Should have killed that little fucker
Before he even had

Well Jesus Christ was an only child
He went down to the river
And he drank and smiled

And his dad was oh-so-mad
Should have insured that planet
Before it crashed

Working real hard to make internet cash
Work your fingers to the bone sitting on your ass

Penny found out as her hair was styled
Well you should hide you kids
While the dogs run wild

I know now what I knew then
But I didn't know then what I know now

Well I know now what I knew then, yeah
I know now what I knew then, yeah
I know now what I knew then
But I didn't know then what I know now

>an inevitably